any lawyers out there?

[sumas]

A good friend quitclaimed the deed to his house several years ago to us. He is now in home hospice. Over the past few months several relatives have moved in, 5 currently. The deed was prepared by his/our attorney, it is filed, notarized and signed, it is transfer on death. Our name appears on the deed at city hall.

How easy is it to over throw this deed? They are telling people, who have told us, that we will never get the house. The attorney assured us the deed stands.

If they got him to change to the deed to them would it be valid since he is on morphine.

We go almost daily and are treated like interlopers and they have this smug look.

Help anyone?

[gnome]

You need to get those people out of the house. You need large people with mean faces to walk in and move them to the lawn. Then change the locks. Keeping up the pretense of "getting along with them" is only delaying the reality of the soon to come battle.

Once your friend passes, the gloves are going to come off, and regardless if you are on the deed or not, you will find it impossible to get those people out of the house. It will take a year of fighting and lawyering and expenses. I assume you do not have a year's worth of lawyer money laying around.

Then after paying a lawyer several thousand dollars, you are going to come into possession of house in Detroit with the furnace ripped out, the piping gone, and the windows broken.

At issue is your ability to be the mean heartless prick you will have to be to get this done. That is what you have to decide. Even if you get a lawyer there is not a bloodless way to handle this. It will be messy, mean and vicious.

If you can't stand the thought of being cold and cruel, save your money.

[Meddle]

The deed was prepared by his/our attorney, it is filed, notarized and signed, it is transfer on death. Our name appears on the deed at city hall.

I'm not really sure you can do anything about the visitors if the deed doesn't transfer 'til death. You say relatives, but are they family as in immediate blood [[siblings, offspring,etc.)? Are they caregivers?

[Detwa]

Isn't there some law about someone having legal tenancy if they've been allowed to stay at a residence for a certain amount of time? I've seen it mentioned on television but not sure of the time, but its at least 30 days, then that person has some type of claim to the property. Please verify that and be careful! Is the owner able to dictate anything right now and demand that they move out?

[gazhekwe]

If your name is on record as the owner of the property, you are the owner, not Mister. You can do what you want to get them out of your house.

However, if Mister has a life estate, then your right of ownership takes over when he dies.

If he wants the people there, there is really nothing you can do about it right now. If he doesn't want them there, it will still be putting him through a mess and a half to start anything with them right now. Plus, it will cost thousands.

I am not a lawyer but I am married to an elder law attorney who deals with this kind of thing.

[MikeM]

Did he quit claim the house just to you, or to you and himself? Sounds like the latter if it doesn't transfer to you until his death. If he's still an owner maybe he could QC it again to someone else? If he's still an owner could the house become involved in an estate dispute? Does someone have power of attorney if he's debilitated by a medical condition? Good luck with all that.

[sumas]

Thank you all for insightful comments. Frankly I can do nothing since it is transfer on death. Gnome you make me laugh because I do have mean friends that would like nothing better than to kick them all out. It is not legal and I am a law abiding person.

When the deed was filed several years ago, he had a great nephew living with him and a long term paying tennant. The great nephew is sweet, very smart and hasn't worked in years. He did nothing around the house but Mister adores him.

The state of Michigan paid me a nominal fee for cooking, shopping, light house keeping etc. 90% of the money I received went back into the house to provide things like railings, support items for his disability and needed household items. The great nephew's dad moved back and I was grateful, he is everything his son is not and he has been spectacular at providing care on a round the clock basis. He is a neat freak and the house has never looked better. He also doesn't have a paying job.

I do resent the rest of the family showing up. They also don't have jobs.

Had any one of them showed some concept of a "paying" job work ethic I am sure they would have gotten the house. Not one of them have filed an income tax return in years, if ever.

Mister doesn't need the hubbub of all these people including a toddler. The state pay is being transfered to the nephew and he deserves it. Mister tolerates the extra baggage because he adores his great nephew who loves having his siblings around him.

I know they plan to challenge the deed, I just can't figure out on what front. The only way they could support that household is by selling drugs which I suspect a few already do. How do you drive a Cadillac with no job?

[jiminnm]

If the deed is TOD, then you have no legal interest in the property until you take title when the current owner dies. Only he has the right to toss the interlopers out now. If the deed was correctly completed and filed with the county, then there will be no grounds to challenge it unless the owner files a new deed before he dies. You would have to have some proof that it was done under duress or incompetence. Has he signed a power of attorney giving anyone the right to sign on his behalf?

Upon the owner's death, immediately serve the residents with a notice that they are trespassing on your property without your permission. See a good property attorney, as the laws regarding eviction are heavily weighted towards occupants regardless of their right to be there.

[sumas]

Thank you Jim. You have confirmed what I have been thinking. I did discuss the eviction issue with his/our attorney and will retain him if necessary. No doubt it will be complicated since a toddler is involved.

If they wish to stay and pay rent I could live with that since I do not plan to inhabit the house personally for two to four years. Pretending they all left, we had arranged with the tennant to supervise the home and rent rooms. [[the area is zoned for this). If no one is working and if they can come up with the money, I would want them out. No way do I want it to become drug seller central.

The lastest twist is that someone has removed all legal documents from the house. Mister has qualified for several years for a 100% property tax exemption. This must be applied for annually. I have handled many financial and other issues for Mister for years, I know how he files and where he stores records. Every document of importance is missing including tax records. Without this, I can't help him file his exemption, taxes etc. It is so frustrating.

I assume that they are looking for other monetary assets but why take papers that assist him and are actually income producing since he generally gets a hefty tax rebate? Any monies he has on death would be theirs. I can only lay claim to house and contents.

Mister might have stocks or bonds that pay dividends but that has never been my business. His desk has secret compartments, if there are things of that nature they are no doubt there.

[gazhekwe]

Have you told the helpful nephew about the necessary tax filing?

[sumas]

Not sure exactly what you mean Gaz. No, I haven't talked to the nephews since everyone will deny removing documents. I have decided that it is no skin off my teeth if his taxes are not filed.

The property tax abatement might help me for a part of the year but he will not even pay his phone bill. Don't understand this, but what the heck.

Still very confused as to his thinking. Will go tommorrow to encourage him to pay bills. He has the money, it is just DTE, phone and cable. Maybe he is really mad at all the mooches that have showed up [[2 more) in the last day. I think the count is 9 now.

The father came from the Caputians and did the healing service in its entirety which frankly surprised me. To tell the truth, I think it did me more good than Mister. I feel very calm now. Que Sera Sera. What ever will be.

[jiminnm]

It might be far more than taxes. Depending on the info in the missing documents, they might provide needed info for identity theft or fraud - establishing credit in the owner's name and running up debts under his name.

Not much you can do about that if the owner isn't willing to confront his relatives. I'm not sure if the house could be attached or liened for unpaid debts as part of the estate with the TOD. Sorry to be cynical and pessimistic, but I used to get paid to think of bad things people might do.

[gazhekwe]

Not sure exactly what you mean Gaz.

I just wondered if the helpful nephew knows about the tax abatement request that needs to be filed. If he does, he can get the paperwork needed and take care of it, or ask someone else to help him. He might be able to get the papers from whoever took them, since they are all family members, where there is no way you can get it.

[Lferg]

I don't understand what you mean by "Transferred on death". What exactly does the deed say? Does it convey the property to you and your husband preserving a "life estate" for Mister, is it deeded to all three as "Joint tenants with rights of survivorship", or, does it say "tenants in common"? How the conveyance is worded will be the key to who owns the property, not only now, but upon Misters death.

One thing may help you sleep better is if your name is on the deed now than the relatives can't mortgage it without your signature.

About the only thing that could really effect the transfer is if there was another owner of the property who didn't sign off on the deed which would create a cloud on the title.

[sumas]

The quitclaim is transfer on death, our names are on the title currently. In fact the City of Detroit doubled the tax rate thinking we were the new owners and had to spend several hours to prove we only will acquire the property TOD.

Anyone trying to take out loans etc. would constitute fraud. These people are not too bright so I wouldn't put it past them.

I did contact the attorney though and asked him to put the fact that all those records disappeared in the file.

Something so simple has become complicated by the mere fact that all these people have barged in. Always figured I'd inherit the nephew and great nephew with the house. In fact, when we discussed this transfer, it was on the table. Instead we settled for a cash payment to the nephew at the end of ten years.

I talked to the attorney and it is perfectly legal for me to deduct unpaid rent reducing the pay out figure.

It still disturbs me that Mister doesn't want to pay his bills mostly because it is unfair to his tennant.

[sumas]

Today I plan on going to Mister's house while my husband takes Mom for radiation. Even given his health or lack of. He needs to know that documents have been removed and he needs to pay his bills.

Mister is one of those people who will live as long as he wants to. I have never seen such determination and stamina. He has lived with assorted cancers for many years and survived. This unfortunately really is the final round. I hope he sticks it out at least for the summer. The decision is his. Trust me, he will pick the day and time, he was always a drama queen. He calls it street theater.

[Lferg]

Thanks Sumas, you taught me something new. In all my experience with deeds I had never seen one that transfers on death, but then, I left Michigan quite a few years ago.

The big question regarding what Mister is able to do with the property comes down to the language. If it reserves the right of the Grantor [[Mister) to mortgage, sell, or otherwise convey the property, than he can change the grantees without your consent. If not, than it is similar to a "life estate" where you have to sign off on any conveyance.

http://courts.co.calhoun.mi.us/epic0220.htm

[Meddle]

I'm getting confused. You say you haven't been there or talked to anyone yet, so how do you know the documents were removed, or that it wasn't with his permission?

[sumas]

Sorry Meddle, I perhaps wasn't plain in my writing. We are there almost every day. We have been his family for many years and when he was considered terminal, the family started crawling out like cockroaches.

Mister asked me to take care of a tax issue and I went through his files for that purpose. That is when I discovered his legal documents were all removed. Today I coaxed him to pay a bill. His check recording record is missing. WTF!

I debated telling him about these documents being removed. Today the house was empty of folk, so I told him. I didn't request him to take any action. He really can't in his drugged state anyway but he should know.

I did tell his nephew that documents are missing, I accused no one but did stress the importance of them being found and why. He assured me he would no doubt locate them and turn them over. Humppph. Frankly, I know who wanted them but not sure why.

For legal eagles, I believe the TOD deed is tennants in common. I am lousy at filing records, but the attorney has all copies.

Still very perplexed over why the newly "dear" relatives are so convinced that we are out and they are in?

Anyone have a clue why or how these relatives seem so confident the house will be theirs?

Actually we are considering deeding half the house to the tennant since we have the same vision.

Two more people are heading in from out of state for a "visit" . That would bring the number of nine to relatives almost unknown to Mister moving in. The house is big but not that big

[sumas]

Not sure exactly what you mean Gaz.

I just wondered if the helpful nephew knows about the tax abatement request that needs to be filed. If he does, he can get the paperwork needed and take care of it, or ask someone else to help him. He might be able to get the papers from whoever took them, since they are all family members, where there is no way you can get it.

Our name is on the deed, that entitles me to take care of paper work regarding the house. Just need the missing documentation. Tomorrow I go to city hall and throw myself on their mercy given existing circumstances. Might happen, might not. I give it a 30% chance. I am going to ask them to use last years documentation to institute a claim for this year. Wish me luck.

[Meddle]

If there are blood relatives involved, you may not have any standing to do anything at all including filing any tax or financial papers.

[Lferg]

For legal eagles, I believe the TOD deed is tennants in common. I am lousy at filing records, but the attorney has all copies.

Anyone have a clue why or how these relatives seem so confident the house will be theirs?

Remember, I had to look up TOD deeds as I wasn't familiar with them, but from what I found the deed serves two purposes. One, it avoids probate, and two, protects the home from being taken by the State to reimburse Medicaid costs under the Estate Recovery Bill.

http://michiganelderlaw.blogspot.com...-recovery.html

Because the deed is set up to avoid probate, my assumption is that it creates Joint tenants with rights of survivorship. The difference is that “Tenants in common� would still create the need for probate, whereas JTWRS would not.

http://real-estate-law.freeadvice.co...ship_forms.htm

As for the relatives, the recorded deed makes it official, the house is yours upon the death of Mister, and since there isn't any probate involved, there's nothing the relatives can do except from a tenant standpoint such as force eviction. They can’t challenge the transfer because it doesn’t go through probate.

The only issue you could theoretically run into is if the lawyer worded the deed in a way that retains the right for the Grantor, in this case, "Mister", to mortgage, sell, or otherwise convey the property. If that's the case, than he has full control until his death and the relatives could convince him to sign a new deed.

For what it’s worth, I’m really sorry that you have to deal with all this in addition to everything else you have going on.

[cman710]

sumas, I am sorry to hear you are going through such an upsetting time, especially when you would probably much rather focus on caring for your loved ones than fighting legal battles. Good luck with this, and keep us posted. I am an attorney, but unfortunately not in Michigan. Some resources you might consider are the following. I am not sure any of these organizations can represent you [[most have minimum income requirements for pro bono representation) or if they handle cases like yours, but they may be able to refer you to helpful resources even if they can't help directly.

Elder Law of Michigan - They have a hotline and do assist caregivers as well as the elderly.
http://elderlawofmi.org/legal_hotlin...18ada870adbcad

Legal Aid and Defender

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Fax [[313) 964-1932

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Fax: [[313) 831-3874

[jiminnm]

Lferg, the TOD deed has nothing to do with the form of tenancy. Mister continues to own the property until the moment of his death. Sumas has no legal interest in the property as long as Mister is alive. At that time, whatever interest he had in the property immediately transfers to sumas. It is primarily a way to transfer property at death, avoiding probate without using a will or a trust, and without transferring any ownership interest while alive. Generally, any TOD deed allows the owner to do anything that he might have been able to do with the property without a TOD [[including sell or mortgage it prior to death). The use of a quit claim deed supports that practice, as a quit claim only transfers whatever interest an owner has in the property. If he has no interest, there is nothing to transfer.


That is distinctly different from a life estate. With a life estate, the current owner conveys title [[i.e., ownership) to a person while alive, but retains the right to live on or use the property as long as the current owner lives. So, the new owner immediately receives ownership, along with all the responsibilities of ownership [[taxes, insurance, etc.).

[Lferg]

Thanks for the clarification jiminnm. As I stated earlier, in all my experience I have never ran across a TOD deed and had to look it up. It's far more common in my state to see a deed with a "Life Estate".