Packard Plant No. 10 Question

**kgb** · March-08-10, 01:30 AM

Hello all -

So, I am a graduate student at the University of Oregon, and am writing a paper about the "Kahn Trussed Bar System" used in the Packard Plant No. 10 building for my Historic Preservation class.

This might seem like a silly question, but is the actual Building No.10 still standing, or has it been demolished? Any help [[and photos!) would be appreciated.

**Django** · March-08-10, 02:26 AM

I was in the Packard today showing someone around. The one thing that seems to be in every Kahn building is his vertical concrete supports. In the Packard they are about 2.5' in diameter at the base but cone outward at the ceiling. Im sure this is not what your talking about but it amazed me that the top two floors of one of the buildings has collapsed. Its quite a sight. You can see it in the background of the pic I took. There was no demo done as far as I know, thats all nature.

Im pretty sure the truss system your referring to was used on a walkway that spanned between the two main buildings. It didnt come down until two scrappers basically cut the diagonal I beams that were supporting them. Almost the entire walkway came crashing down with them in it. They were hella lucky and walked away. I do know the diagonal beams they cut were some of the biggest Ive seen cause I was eyein them. They must have been 15"X15" and 1" thick at the thinnest.

Im not sure which is building #10 but someone here is sure to let you know. You might want to try www.detroiturbanexploration.com

**Novack** · March-08-10, 08:23 AM

K,

I believe a similar system was used by Kahn at Russell Industrial Center, our walk way between building 1 and 4. We actually have tenants in spaces on those walkways, as we had enough space to make a hallway and wall off areas. Also the bridge between building 1 and 2 currently occupy tenants as well.

Let me know if you need some help.

Best,

E

**Krawlspace** · March-08-10, 10:43 AM

Building Number 10 was incorporated into a larger building in the 1950's if I am not mistaken. It was located on the east leg of the main plant on the north side of Grand Blvd. There is a photo of it after its incorporation in the book Legacy of Albert Kahn.

**56packman** · March-08-10, 11:16 AM

Building 10 still stands, for the time being.

**MikeM** · March-08-10, 02:33 PM

Do you have Grant Hildebrand's "Designing for Industry: Architecture of Albert Kahn" as a reference? It includes a picture of No. 10 and a description of the building.

**Carey** · March-08-10, 04:03 PM

U of O student: Yes, Building 10 remains standing. Its location is difficult to describe without being there in person, or looking at a photo, but it is located north of E. Grand Blvd, about 50 yards toward I-94 from the old main entrance on the west side of the building. It has no special markings on the outside, and looks like most of the diapidated buildings that surround it. Over the years, you could find restroom doors or other features that had the number 10 stamped on them. Most have been snatched up by scrappers or history buffs or architecture students.

Stosh · March-08-10, 04:20 PM

The Hathi Trust Digital Library has some copies of Packard internal newsletters that are quite interesting.

Packard, no.1-18 [[1910-11)

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?i...39015071565058

Packard, no.19-29 [[1911-12)

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?i...39015071565066

Packard, no.38-45 [[1913-14)

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?i...39015071565074

Packard, no.46-54 [[1914-15)

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?i...39015071565082

Michigan · March-08-10, 04:25 PM

Providing him [[or her ) with these photos will simply lead to more "urban explorers" destroying Detroit's treasures. If someone wants to study this they should pay the city, just like they would to study ruins in Rome or Paris or Egypt.

**MikeM** · March-08-10, 04:28 PM

That's a leap.

Dabirch · March-08-10, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Carey

U of O student: Yes, Building 10 remains standing. Its location is difficult to describe without being there in person, or looking at a photo, but it is located north of E. Grand Blvd, about 50 yards toward I-94 from the old main entrance on the west side of the building. It has no special markings on the outside, and looks like most of the diapidated buildings that surround it. Over the years, you could find restroom doors or other features that had the number 10 stamped on them. Most have been snatched up by scrappers or history buffs or architecture students.

Or thiefs. Oh wait. Same thing. Sorry.

Stosh · March-08-10, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by Michigan

Providing him [[or her ) with these photos will simply lead to more "urban explorers" destroying Detroit's treasures. If someone wants to study this they should pay the city, just like they would to study ruins in Rome or Paris or Egypt.

Just a little late to the party, isn't it? That horse has been out of the barn for a while now, it seems.

Michigan · March-08-10, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by Stosh

Just a little late to the party, isn't it? That horse has been out of the barn for a while now, it seems.

It is not too late to save these buildings. Just because they have gotten away with this in the past it should not be helped now. WHo knows who this "student" is? These buildings preserved will serve as the surroundings for the new Gehry building downtown.

**casscorridor** · March-08-10, 05:50 PM

I don't think it is too late at all to save Packard. If anything, it is too early!!!!

My vision is Packard becoming a massive Russell Industrial Center. Renovate as much as we can, convert it to studios, offices, apartments, etc. Make it an art and business incubator, the largest ever in the world. It could be a city in itself. That first picture that Stosh posted is magnificent, the area resembled a vibrant Downtown more than a factory. I also love the "the Packard" logo, if the place was ever converted into a Russell 2.0, that would be a great logo to use, so nostalgic.

There could be a streetcar/light-rail on Grand Boulevard, looping around the city, with a stop or two at Packard. This would defiantly help the chances of it being redeveloped.

You might think I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one!

Long Live Packard!

Michigan · March-08-10, 06:37 PM

Detroit has light rail- the DPM. Why not extend a line or a loop out to the Packard. Living Downtown and commuting by rail to this business incubation center would draw all sorts of people. There is a market for this type of redevelopment.

Stosh · March-08-10, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

I don't think it is too late at all to save Packard. If anything, it is too early!!!!

My vision is Packard becoming a massive Russell Industrial Center. Renovate as much as we can, convert it to studios, offices, apartments, etc. Make it an art and business incubator, the largest ever in the world. It could be a city in itself. That first picture that Stosh posted is magnificent, the area resembled a vibrant Downtown more than a factory. I also love the "the Packard" logo, if the place was ever converted into a Russell 2.0, that would be a great logo to use, so nostalgic.

There could be a streetcar/light-rail on Grand Boulevard, looping around the city, with a stop or two at Packard. This would defiantly help the chances of it being redeveloped.

You might think I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one!

Long Live Packard!

I suppose why the first "Picture" that was so magnificent [[as quoted above) looked like a downtown scene, was because it was. Not a scene from the Packard properties at all...

What I posted were historical newsletters. If you flip through the pages, there are many more scenes of other things [[mostly cars)

**Hornwrecker** · March-08-10, 08:26 PM

The building [[in red) is labeled #10 in the 1915 Sanborn map.

Attachment 5428

Not sure if this is the real #10 or something else. Also labeled: 4 story, reinforced concrete and brick construction, built 1908-09, machine shop 1st 2nd 4th floors, 3rd floor motor assembly.

**kgb** · March-08-10, 10:27 PM

Thanks everyone for all for your help! The Sanborn map is definitely useful and discussions of the building being incorporated into others explains a lot. Building No.10 was the first reinforced concrete factory in Detroit, built after the original 9 "mill style" buildings. Though it is interesting to note that while Julius Kahn patented his Truss System [[which are steel rods with angled "whiskers" embedded in the wet concrete for support) by 1903, and these first 9 buildings were constructed between 1903-1905, Albert chose not to use it. I'm thinking maybe the technology was too new and untrusted? I haven't figured this out for sure yet. Anyhow, in 1906, Building No. 10 emerged.

I have read Designing for Industry, and have also been reading old catalogs issued by the Atlas Portland Cement Co and TrussCo, Julius Kahn's supply catalog.

As for the mild paranoia about my "studenthood", I completely understand where this attitude is coming from, but I should say that my husband is from Detroit, and I lived in Woodbridge for six years, graduated from WSU's MFA program. I love the city with all my heart, and consider it my home. There is a reason why I am in a Preservation program - to eventually return and make some type of impact.

Thanks again!

Stosh · March-08-10, 11:18 PM

Based on Hornwrecker's Sanborn map, I believe this is 10:

Attachment 5431

Water tower is in courtyard 10.

Stosh · March-08-10, 11:25 PM

The Sanborn view

Attachment 5432

**kgb** · March-08-10, 11:42 PM

Stosh -

Thanks - this seems right! The Sanborn map lists the date as being 1908-1909, but I think this is the date of its second build. When the building was originally erected, it was only two stories, but Kahn had planned from the beginning to add 2 more floors. Some books list the addition as being completed in 1910, but hey, this is pretty close!

Stosh · March-08-10, 11:56 PM

It's probably it due to the numbering in the Sanborn. The book "Albert Kahn: Builder of Detroit" has 10's location pegged between Concord and Packard, where this is. Encased in outer buildings, as well. I learned something about that place today... of course it figures that the only archtecturally significant building [[relatively speaking) in the complex is destroyed more than the others.

**Carey** · March-09-10, 10:54 AM

Is that photo really the building that is represented on the Sanborn map? Isn't the water tower in the section of the plant that is south of the Boulevard? The map shows Building 10 to be north of the Boulevard, and that is my recollection, too. Emphasis on "recollection."

**Hornwrecker** · March-09-10, 11:39 AM

Attachment 5435
wsu/culma

Stosh · March-09-10, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Carey

Is that photo really the building that is represented on the Sanborn map? Isn't the water tower in the section of the plant that is south of the Boulevard? The map shows Building 10 to be north of the Boulevard, and that is my recollection, too. Emphasis on "recollection."

North of the Boulevard all right. It's easy enough to find on Bing maps.

The way you find it is to base your search in Google Maps from Concord and Lambert street, which is north of the site in question, as well as on the Sanborn that Hornwrecker posted. Then, look for the fire hydrants. One is on the corner of Lambert and Concord, next 2 are basically showing where Building 10 is. Look at the dots on the Sanborn.

There is a water tower on the South of the Boulevard, but that isn't where 10 is.

edit: Nice photo Hornwrecker...