M1 Rail has a website

[Gsgeorge]

Long overdue, the M1 Rail project finally caught up with 2010 and got themselves a website.

http://www.m-1rail.com/

Still missing: System Map, anyone??????

Lots of talk from Bing & the developers on this project that ripping up Woodward will begin before the end of this year.

[douglasm]

You need a system map for something that's going to run up Woodward eventually to the fairgrounds? Sounds like a trolley route I once knew.....

[gnome]

Gotta see how other folks are adjusting their driving habits to sharing the road way with trolleys:

[Stosh]

Nice find. The way people drive around here will be a highlight reel a week, I'll bet.

[dtowncitylover]

Already discussed. It's towards the bottom.

http://detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?t=1035&page=2

[kenp]

I pick the last scene [[the Van) as the best wreck

[bailey]

Long overdue, the M1 Rail project finally caught up with 2010 and got themselves a website.

http://www.m-1rail.com/

Still missing: System Map, anyone??????

Lots of talk from Bing & the developers on this project that ripping up Woodward will begin before the end of this year.

That site has a claim that there will be 12 stops... some of the Freep/det news illustrations have as many as 15. its a 3.5 mile length of track. is a stop every quarter mile REALLY a necessity? What is that, every 3-4 blocks...maybe? I mean if I can shout to the next stop and have those on the platform hear me...do I really need to ride the train to get there?

[mcsdetroitfriend]

i like how in the video half those idiots don't read the street signs that say no left turn

[professorscott]

That site has a claim that there will be 12 stops... some of the Freep/det news illustrations have as many as 15. its a 3.5 mile length of track. is a stop every quarter mile REALLY a necessity? What is that, every 3-4 blocks...maybe? I mean if I can shout to the next stop and have those on the platform hear me...do I really need to ride the train to get there?

Well, let's turn the question around. 12 stations in three and a half miles means a station about every third of a mile, roughly 1800 feet, or 720 paces. So if you think that's too many stops, let me ask you this: would you like to be the person whose job is 800 paces or more from the nearest stop? In fact, people won't ride if they have to walk that far. Neither you, nor most other people.

Now, out past New Center, there will probably only be a couple stops per mile, but then, there aren't as many employment locations to stop at. My guess is that people living along Woodward will continue to use the bus unless they live near a train station [[once the DTOGS extension is built), but locations near DTOGS stations will become preferable places to live and to open retail stores.

From New Center to downtown, there is already enough activity to justify closer station spacing.

As usual, all this is just IMVHO. Feel free to disagree, but don't bother flaming.

[bailey]

Well, let's turn the question around. 12 stations in three and a half miles means a station about every third of a mile, roughly 1800 feet, or 720 paces. So if you think that's too many stops, let me ask you this: would you like to be the person whose job is 800 paces or more from the nearest stop? In fact, people won't ride if they have to walk that far. Neither you, nor most other people.

Now, out past New Center, there will probably only be a couple stops per mile, but then, there aren't as many employment locations to stop at. My guess is that people living along Woodward will continue to use the bus unless they live near a train station [[once the DTOGS extension is built), but locations near DTOGS stations will become preferable places to live and to open retail stores.

From New Center to downtown, there is already enough activity to justify closer station spacing.

As usual, all this is just IMVHO. Feel free to disagree, but don't bother flaming.

What I don't want to see are stops like Bricktown to Greektown or Millender Center to Renassaince Center or Compuware to the Broadway on the PM. It takes longer to sit and wait for the damn thing to arrive board and disembark than it would to simply walk across or down the friggin street. Why make the same mistake?

If we have decided that we need stops bunched so close together, because we as a region can not walk an 1/8th of a mile down the street, why bother with the expense of rail? Just beef up the current stop-every-two-blocks bus system with more buses a dedicated bus lane. save all the hassle.

[rbdetsport]

What I don't want to see are stops like Bricktown to Greektown or
If we have decided that we need stops bunched so close together, because we as a region can not walk an 1/8th of a mile down the street, why bother with the expense of rail? Just beef up the current stop-every-two-blocks bus system with more buses a dedicated bus lane. save all the hassle.

Because people won't use it if it is a bus. People want rail. Whenever I bring someone from out of state to Detroit they are shocked to find that there is no such rail extending out to the suburbs as it is in their city. It is more of a prestige factor than anything else.

[Bearinabox]

What I don't want to see are stops like Bricktown to Greektown or Millender Center to Renassaince Center or Compuware to the Broadway on the PM. It takes longer to sit and wait for the damn thing to arrive board and disembark than it would to simply walk across or down the friggin street. Why make the same mistake?

If we have decided that we need stops bunched so close together, because we as a region can not walk an 1/8th of a mile down the street, why bother with the expense of rail? Just beef up the current stop-every-two-blocks bus system with more buses a dedicated bus lane. save all the hassle.

Nobody rides the DPM from Greektown to Bricktown and gets off, just like nobody gets on the Woodward bus at Warren and gets off at Farnsworth. I don't see where the fact that it's possible to use a transit system in a way that makes no rational sense is necessarily a flaw in the design of the system.

[bailey]

Nobody rides the DPM from Greektown to Bricktown and gets off, just like nobody gets on the Woodward bus at Warren and gets off at Farnsworth. I don't see where the fact that it's possible to use a transit system in a way that makes no rational sense is necessarily a flaw in the design of the system.

Does if matter if people don't get on to just go from Bricktown to Greektown? It still stops at both places and they are barely a block apart, which is just stupid. That design which makes no rational sense is apparently going to be repeated in the form of a street level version of the PM. Which, if as badly planned, will be used just like the PM.

[Gsgeorge]

Does if matter if people don't get on to just go from Bricktown to Greektown? It still stops at both places and they are barely a block apart, which is just stupid. That design which makes no rational sense is apparently going to be repeated in the form of a street level version of the PM. Which, if as badly planned, will be used just like the PM.

I still think its impossible to compare the DPM with the M1 Rail. M1 is a linear route, and importantly it covers more population and distance than the DPM. I don't think people will use it to go from Grand Circus to Congress. But someone might use it to go from Warren to GCP, or Warren to Congress. It is about offering long-distance trips with frequent stops to provide for the largest possible pool of options, destinations, and locations. Just because two stops are next to each other does not mean people will hop the rail just to go one stop. Who knows, maybe they will. But that's not the point. The point is if you're at the DIA and want to make the long-distance trek downtown on M1, you have a few places to get off at depending on where you are going or what you're doing.

[casscorridor]

I still think its impossible to compare the DPM with the M1 Rail. M1 is a linear route, and importantly it covers more population and distance than the DPM. I don't think people will use it to go from Grand Circus to Congress. But someone might use it to go from Warren to GCP, or Warren to Congress. It is about offering long-distance trips with frequent stops to provide for the largest possible pool of options, destinations, and locations. Just because two stops are next to each other does not mean people will hop the rail just to go one stop. Who knows, maybe they will. But that's not the point. The point is if you're at the DIA and want to make the long-distance trek downtown on M1, you have a few places to get off at depending on where you are going or what you're doing.

Yes. This is an important step. I would try and suggest to someone to ride the bus, which would do about the same thing, only a tad slower. ... but it doesn't matter. Vistors just don't want to take the bus. But they will ride a train. I think we'll definatly see more people taking trips similar to the one you described, the DIA to Downtown.

[bailey]

I still think its impossible to compare the DPM with the M1 Rail. M1 is a linear route, and importantly it covers more population and distance than the DPM. I don't think people will use it to go from Grand Circus to Congress. But someone might use it to go from Warren to GCP, or Warren to Congress. It is about offering long-distance trips with frequent stops to provide for the largest possible pool of options, destinations, and locations. Just because two stops are next to each other does not mean people will hop the rail just to go one stop. Who knows, maybe they will. But that's not the point. The point is if you're at the DIA and want to make the long-distance trek downtown on M1, you have a few places to get off at depending on where you are going or what you're doing.

The PM is 2.9 miles in a circle with 12 stops [[right?) Serving what is supposedly the most densely populated area of Detroit. The M1 will [[maybe) be about 3 miles with 12-15 [[maybe) stops along Detroit's busiest street. I don't know, I think they're are more similarities than differences.

But more to your point, if you are...say a resident of Birmingham. You are not going to drive halfway down, park your car, get out, pay for parking, go wait for a train that will apparently stop every two blocks, just to get to the DIA. You're just gonna drive down a very wide and very fast moving street to get to your destination.

Having a street level PM that does nothing but act as a local shuttle on an already heavily serviced [[by buses) thoroughfare, that does nothing to encourage anyone to get out of their car that doesn't live immediately on the line, or that doesn't do anything that isn't already being done by or could be done by a well run bus system, is pretty much a waste. But instead of insisting that DDot; a) not be run by a convicted felon with no qualification, or B) merge with SMART...we'll build a train.

When it's all built people are going to say the same damn thing they say about the PM. " I'd use it more if it went anywhere".

[Bearinabox]

The PM is 2.9 miles in a circle with 12 stops [[right?) Serving what is supposedly the most densely populated area of Detroit. The M1 will [[maybe) be about 3 miles with 12-15 [[maybe) stops along Detroit's busiest street. I don't know, I think they're are more similarities than differences.

For clarification purposes:

Circle


Line

Refer to this guide as necessary.

[bailey]

For clarification purposes:

Circle


Line

Refer to this guide as necessary.

Snark dully noted.. I mean did I say exactly the same? no. but M1 still just goes in a up and down loop on woodward to the New Center...and MAYBE by what 2020...MAYBE pahse II gets built it MIGHT go to 8 mile. My point is it is still just as much of a closed loop as the PM's circle is. I mean that it goes nowhere and unless you immediately live on the line, you will be taking a bus or driving to it. If you are already in a car, why get out.? if you are already on a bus why change to a train? If you're at the airport you're still taking a cab. If you're in town on buisness you're still renting a car. If you live in the burbs and are not on the woodward corridor, you're still driving in. you;re probably driving even if you do live on the corridor, because it's gonna be another 15 years before they even start phase II which isn't leaving the city limits anyway.

[Bearinabox]

Snark dully noted.. I mean did I say exactly the same? no. but M1 still just goes in a up and down loop on woodward to the New Center...and MAYBE by what 2020...MAYBE pahse II gets built it MIGHT go to 8 mile. My point is it is still just as much of a closed loop as the PM's circle is. I mean that it goes nowhere and unless you immediately live on the line, you will be taking a bus or driving to it. If you are already in a car, why get out.? if you are already on a bus why change to a train? If you're at the airport you're still taking a cab. If you're in town on buisness you're still renting a car. If you live in the burbs and are not on the woodward corridor, you're still driving in. you;re probably driving even if you do live on the corridor, because it's gonna be another 15 years before they even start phase II which isn't leaving the city limits anyway.

Hey, if I could snap my fingers and produce a comprehensive regional transit network, I'd do it in a second. The DPM by itself is better than nothing, and the DPM plus M1Rail is better than the DPM by itself. We have to start somewhere. If we hold off doing anything until we can do everything at once, nothing will ever improve. None of this, incidentally, is in any way relevant to your previous criticism that it's faster to walk between any two consecutive stations than to take the train, which is pretty much going to be true of any local transit line in an urban core.

[Gsgeorge]

For clarification purposes:

Circle


Line

Refer to this guide as necessary.

Your logic doesn't work. You're assuming a 9-mile radius circle instead of a 2.9-mile one. The M1 line is three miles straight. The DPM is three miles in a circle, but it's really only 1-mile across at its widest point.

The PM is 2.9 miles in a circle with 12 stops [[right?) Serving what is supposedly the most densely populated area of Detroit. The M1 will [[maybe) be about 3 miles with 12-15 [[maybe) stops along Detroit's busiest street. I don't know, I think they're are more similarities than differences.

But more to your point, if you are...say a resident of Birmingham. You are not going to drive halfway down, park your car, get out, pay for parking, go wait for a train that will apparently stop every two blocks, just to get to the DIA. You're just gonna drive down a very wide and very fast moving street to get to your destination.

Your logic is way off as well.

Let's go with your point about "density" [[aka population) first. According to city-data.com, the residential population of the Downtown neighborhood [[which includes Bricktown & the CBD) is 4,359. Generous estimates by the Brookings Institute place it at 6,500. See here for downtown population data.

The populations of those living within a half-mile of the proposed M1 Rail line, which would include some parts of the populations of New Center, MIdtown, Brush Park, Art Center, and Med Center, is conservatively 25,355. Remember, this is residential only.

Add the roughly 80,500+ people that work Downtown you have roughly 86,000 people that could potentially use the People Mover. M1 Rail, on the other hand, can tap into the additional 20,965 New Center employees, 12,000 Med Center employees, 2,500 Wayne State employees, and 31,786 WSU students, and suddenly the M1 can serve from 141,320-173,000 people conservatively compared to the DPM's 86,000.

Then you have to factor in the 5,600,000 visitors to the CBD every year for events at Cobo, Fox Theater, Stadiums, etc. But wait--this doesn't include the DIA's 532,273 visitors per year.

So you can see where I'm going with this. Extending the line up Woodward invites hundreds of thousands more potential users to the line than the DPM.

Regarding suburbanites that come downtown... "won't take the train... would rather just drive," etc. Look at it this way. A Birmingham family comes downtown for a daytime ball game and spends $10 on parking. They leave the stadium hungry, and staring them in the face is the the M1 rail. Suddenly the world is open to them. They can leave the car, safe in the garage, hop on the rail, get out at Atlas or Union Street, grab a burger along Woodward for a change of scenery... shoot, if they're early enough they can even grab a show at DFT or browse the museum -- all without having to gather the kids, cram them in the car, leave the garage, navigate Detroit's confusing streets northwards, pay for parking again when you get to your destination, etc. To me this seems like a very appealing option. People in other cities do it all the time. Why not here? I would wager that suburbanites are much more willing to sacrifice a few extra minutes during their destination-to-destination commute for some added comfort & relaxation. Who do you know that actually enjoys driving, especially in Detroit? People would much rather people driven around, or grab a ride--or, in this case, hop on a train.

Finally, I would wager that suburbanites are not the real target audience here, and if anything they make up a small percentage of the anticipated riders. It's everyday residents, downtown workers, and visitors who want to come to Detroit without renting a car--these people will use the line most frequently.

The final point is one of simple aesthetics & practicality. The DPM failed because it rather slowly circumnavigates an area that is easily traversable by foot [[the CBD is one mile across). This is simply not comparable to the M1 line, which covers a distance far greater than is feasible on foot.

[Bearinabox]

Your logic doesn't work. You're assuming a 9-mile radius circle instead of a 2.9-mile one. The M1 line is three miles straight. The DPM is three miles in a circle, but it's really only 1-mile across at its widest point.

I don't understand how this is relevant to the post you quoted.

[bailey]

Hey, if I could snap my fingers and produce a comprehensive regional transit network, I'd do it in a second. The DPM by itself is better than nothing, and the DPM plus M1Rail is better than the DPM by itself. We have to start somewhere. If we hold off doing anything until we can do everything at once, nothing will ever improve. None of this, incidentally, is in any way relevant to your previous criticism that it's faster to walk between any two consecutive stations than to take the train, which is pretty much going to be true of any local transit line in an urban core.

There are baby steps and then there is half-assed. I'm not saying do everything, I'm saying that it shouldn't take three phases of construction to just get to Royal Oak. I'm saying if you're going to do it, do it right.

The space between some of the stops on the PM, Bricktown and Greektown for example, are barley longer than the friggin train. They are practically on the same block. It sure appears as though that is theme is going to be repeated. Does there really need to be stop at GCP and then another one at the Fox? Does there really need to be one at WSU at Warren and then another stop at the DIA?
Since we are working with a scarcity of money, how about putting the stops in between these places? Then you are really getting the two-fer. you're putting a stop where there is less development AND you are serving two attractions. As you said, no one gets on at Bricktown to just get off at Greektown.... is anyone going to be getting on at Wayne to then get off at DIA? So why have two stops?

[bailey]

Let's go with your point about "density" [[aka population) first. According to city-data.com, the residential population of the Downtown neighborhood [[which includes Bricktown & the CBD) is 4,359. Generous estimates by the Brookings Institute place it at 6,500. See here for downtown population data.

The populations of those living within a half-mile of the proposed M1 Rail line, which would include some parts of the populations of New Center, MIdtown, Brush Park, Art Center, and Med Center, is conservatively 25,355. Remember, this is residential only.

Add the roughly 80,500+ people that work Downtown you have roughly 86,000 people that could potentially use the People Mover. M1 Rail, on the other hand, can tap into the additional 20,965 New Center employees, 12,000 Med Center employees, 2,500 Wayne State employees, and 31,786 WSU students, and suddenly the M1 can serve from 141,320-173,000 people conservatively compared to the DPM's 86,000

Ok, but how many of those people work downtown. I rented downtown .... worked in Troy the whole time. In fact, very few of the people I knew in my building worked anywhere that would be serviceable by this line and I would bet if it was constructed today, a stop would be right outside the front door.
. If people wont walk more than 1/8 of a mile between stops are they going to walk more than 1/8th of a mile off the line?

With regard to all the employees of these places... great someone works in New Center... but they live in Novi.

Just living or working near Woodard doesn't really work around here because it rarely means you do both.

Then you have to factor in the 5,600,000 visitors to the CBD every year for events at Cobo, Fox Theater, Stadiums, etc. But wait--this doesn't include the DIA's 532,273 visitors per year.

So you can see where I'm going with this. Extending the line up Woodward invites hundreds of thousands more potential users to the line than the DPM.

yes to use as a parking shuttle on game day or the auto show.

Regarding suburbanites that come downtown... "won't take the train... would rather just drive," etc. Look at it this way. A Birmingham family comes downtown for a daytime ball game and spends $10 on parking. They leave the stadium hungry, and staring them in the face is the the M1 rail. Suddenly the world is open to them. They can leave the car, safe in the garage, hop on the rail, get out at Atlas or Union Street, grab a burger along Woodward for a change of scenery... shoot, if they're early enough they can even grab a show at DFT or browse the museum -- all without having to gather the kids, cram them in the car, leave the garage, navigate Detroit's confusing streets northwards, pay for parking again when you get to your destination, etc. To me this seems like a very appealing option. People in other cities do it all the time. Why not here? I would wager that suburbanites are much more willing to sacrifice a few extra minutes during their destination-to-destination commute for some added comfort & relaxation

Which again...as I''ve said before and was shouted down...this is the primary function of this rail line... parking shuttle to be used on weekends. Basically your scenario would allow for the thing to be shut from 9-5 M-f on non game days. What about sundays? Will it run for Lions games? As this is Detroit, I'd bet not.

IF we had a current system not run by incompetents, "precious jewel" protectors, or felons, the system of buses would accomplish this task. Any other major city doesn't require a light rail system to get it's people to use public transport to go three blocks on a game day. Counter to what everyone around here believes, Chicago has a shitload of buses and the poors arent the only ones who ride them

Who do you know that actually enjoys driving, especially in Detroit? People would much rather people driven around, or grab a ride--or, in this case, hop on a train.

or a bus if it wasnt half broken down and smelling of bum piss.

Finally, I would wager that suburbanites are not the real target audience here, and if anything they make up a small percentage of the anticipated riders. It's everyday residents, downtown workers, and visitors who want to come to Detroit without renting a car--these people will use the line most frequently.

Then why are the suburbanites being asked to pay for the thing in the name of regionalism if they are clearly not going to be the real target audience?

This is simply not comparable to the M1 line, which covers a distance far greater than is feasible on foot

I don't disagree, lets just make the stops more than a block apart and maybe be a little more ambitious than a plan that takes us from downtown to grand blvd.

[professorscott]

The general theme of a lot of the posts on this topic seems to me to boil down to "if we can't do what I think would be a perfect transit line, let's not do anything at all". People who work based on that thesis never accomplish anything.

M1 Rail is not perfect. M1 Rail + DTOGS is better than M1 Rail but still not perfect. M1 Rail + DTOGS + extend it to Royal Oak or Birmingham is even better but still not perfect.

What each system is, is an improvement over what we have, and moves us incrementally closer to a real transit system.

Now to address a couple of points. Why can't it be built all at once? Because nobody has the money. Why did DTOGS stop south of Eight Mile? Because DDOT doesn't serve Ferndale or Royal Oak, and Oakland County's government has not shown the least bit of interest in improved transit. Why does M1 Rail have so many stops? Because that is what the people who are paying for it want. If you think there should be five stops instead of twelve - and I disagree with you in that case - toss in twenty or thirty million dollars, get a seat on the board, and make your proposal.

[gregster]

Because people won't use it if it is a bus. People want rail. Whenever I bring someone from out of state to Detroit they are shocked to find that there is no such rail extending out to the suburbs as it is in their city. It is more of a prestige factor than anything else.

This is sad, but probably true.

"People won't use it if it is a bus. People want rail."

On one of these rail threads a few weeks ago, someone stated that M1 rail should save a couple millions [[maybe tens of millions) and just run nice, modern, clean buses instead of building a train, and build really beautiful modern bus stops that would look and feel just like a light rail stop.

Think of something like this running up and down Woodward.


Would people ride it then? Or is there some sort of stigma associated with something on wheels instead of rails?