Mayor Embraces Shrinking Detroit

[Danny]

Downsizing Detroit ghettohoods might be a final option. City services can't maintain almost blighted/ urban prarie areas. Those who live in those areas might have to move out for slum clearance purposes and gate the blighted streets from future development use.

[kraig]

I was watching ABC News Nightline one night, they a had story about Flint is shrinking and downsizing their city. If Flint's plan to downsize and shrink is successful, hopefully a similar thing can happen for Detroit.

It's also being done in Youngstown, OH. The City would be well advised to study the results, successes and failures, that others already doing it are having.

I wonder how the tax assessments will work out for those forced to move into new houses. Will they get assessed and taxed at a higher rate as someone is done in a normal move?

[sumas]

I enjoy reading the comments both pro and con. I remember the fiasco of the Poletown Plant, the Chrysler Jefferson Plant and Graimark. The lawsuits and wasted money shows the city can't handle these kinds of moves.

[bailey]

I enjoy reading the comments both pro and con. I remember the fiasco of the Poletown Plant, the Chrysler Jefferson Plant and Graimark. The lawsuits and wasted money shows the city can't handle these kinds of moves.

The eminent domain issue with Poletown was the use of the eminent domain for a private interest instead of a "public use"- City taking land and giving to GM . The justification at the time was that the GM plant was "like" a "public use" in that it would be a revenue generator for the city and would have helped the area....flash forward 20 years and the Michigan Supremes realized the error of that and reversed its holding that it was ok for government to seize land for private interests.

Curiously, at almost the same time, the US Supreme court ruled the exact opposite way in with a very similar set of circumstances, a drug company wanted a bigger factory, city seized land to keep factory in city and realize higher tax revenue. however, on this issue in Michigan, the Michigan court wins. States can give broader constitutional protections.

Anyhow, the point is, the city CAN seize the land if for a public use as long as they give "just compensation" for it. The lawsuits will come in the haggling over what exactly is "just compensation" as it's ultimately an issue for the courts to determine.

[Detroitej72]

I enjoy reading the comments both pro and con. I remember the fiasco of the Poletown Plant, the Chrysler Jefferson Plant and Graimark. The lawsuits and wasted money shows the city can't handle these kinds of moves.

Part of the problem with Poletown is the city destroyed a viable neighborhood. Chrysler Jefferson and Grainmark were areas that were in serious decline, but had enough residents who were up for the fight.

If the city chooses to relocate people, I would think it would be from areas that are a lot less populated than the other examples mentioned.

[Russix]

Can we try mass transit first before we try a shrinking plan? The majority of the empty space is in the core of the city. You don’t see it so much on Woodward, but when you bike along Grand River, Michigan, or Gratiot you do notice a steep decline as you get about halfway in till about ¼ of the way downtown. I believe these areas can benefit the most from transit as they were originally TOD from over a century ago. In every other city [[we make this the exception) you find the largest percentage of the population who utilizes transit living within this inner core. Since our transit sucks and our mass transit is not existent, it’s logical to imply that our city’s core and inner neighborhoods should be ghost towns.

[Ravine]

"Sleeping on it" has triggered, in me, a wish to take back one part of my post.
I should not have called Dave Bing "a fuckin' idiot." I don't know if he is, or is not, one.
I stand behind the rest of my comments.

Royce? I don't need to have a "better idea" in order to know, and state, that I think this idea is a bad one, and "guts" have nothing to do with it.
You're not too bright, are ya?

[iheartthed]

Can we try mass transit first before we try a shrinking plan? The majority of the empty space is in the core of the city. You don’t see it so much on Woodward, but when you bike along Grand River, Michigan, or Gratiot you do notice a steep decline as you get about halfway in till about ¼ of the way downtown. I believe these areas can benefit the most from transit as they were originally TOD from over a century ago. In every other city [[we make this the exception) you find the largest percentage of the population who utilizes transit living within this inner core. Since our transit sucks and our mass transit is not existent, it’s logical to imply that our city’s core and inner neighborhoods should be ghost towns.

Yeah, see my comments above.

Also, look at the annexation map for Detroit: http://detroit1701.org/Annexation%20Map.html

Notice anything? If you compare it to the WSJ density map, the most hollowed out areas roughly correspond to the sections of the city annexed before 1910. These were neighborhoods that needed to be constructed around transit lines, since the personal automobiles were not widely owned. Remove the transit system and the neighborhoods evaporate. Seems like every other very large city besides Detroit realized this fast enough to save themselves before it was too late.

[hamtown mike]

This is a great thread. good thoughts. I've noticed a number of people stating that the downsizing or right-sizing of Detroit won't fix the city. Of course it won't! Anyone who is waiting for one action to erase 50-60+ years of slide in one stroke isn't seeing the big picture. This is going to take a number of big decisions to turn things around.

But is this one of them?

Let's say you blow 1/4 gallon of gas going down a road to empty 2 residential trash barrels. [[.25x$3.50=$.88) So you save 88 cents a week by moving those people out of their homes.
That's $45 a year in savings. Let's go crazy and give those folks "fair market value" for their homes at who knows... $40k each? So, that's $80 k your giving over to no longer service these two homes. It would take more than 1,700 years to recoup the 80 k. [[Granted I'm assuming a lot- the number is strictly based on fuel used for garbage service.) But in all reality what other regularly occurring city provided services are there? Do the streets get plowed? Unless somebody has been shot, do the cops even come?

I don't see this breeding more crime, provided the houses come down. I've never overheard the phrase "Hey man let's go out to that wide open empty field and "do some crime"."

I do wish this could work. Believe it or not, density does equal growth. I just fear the math doesn't support it.

[bailey]

mike - c'mon, it's more than just saving the gas used in garbage pick up. the idea would be to completely put sections of Detroit off the grid entirely. That is more than just saving gas. Can it work? Should it even be tried? I don't know. But it's definitely about more than $45 bucks a year.

[Hermod]

Yeah, see my comments above.

Also, look at the annexation map for Detroit: http://detroit1701.org/Annexation%20Map.html

Notice anything? If you compare it to the WSJ density map, the most hollowed out areas roughly correspond to the sections of the city annexed before 1910. These were neighborhoods that needed to be constructed around transit lines, since the personal automobiles were not widely owned. Remove the transit system and the neighborhoods evaporate. Seems like every other very large city besides Detroit realized this fast enough to save themselves before it was too late.

Oakland County seems viable with a bunch of small and medium sized cities.

What if the City of Detroit was to go back to its 19th century boundaries and three or four cities were formed to take over the rest of the city [[e.g. East Detroit, West Detroit, North Detroit)?

[iheartthed]

Oakland County seems viable with a bunch of small and medium sized cities.

What if the City of Detroit was to go back to its 19th century boundaries and three or four cities were formed to take over the rest of the city [[e.g. East Detroit, West Detroit, North Detroit)?

Oakland County is the self-proclaimed economic engine of Michigan, yet Michigan has had the highest unemployment in the nation for nearly a decade. Enough said.

[Russix]

Oakland County seems viable with a bunch of small and medium sized cities.

What if the City of Detroit was to go back to its 19th century boundaries and three or four cities were formed to take over the rest of the city [[e.g. East Detroit, West Detroit, North Detroit)?

That's where the majority of the people live today and the problem regarding vacant land is the least.

What if we went the opposite way, say create a Tri-County Metro Government? A lot of other metro regions are consolidating or at least are trying too. Create a Metro Government. Charge it with the task of building and operating regional transit[[with the ability to levy a regional tax) and give it total authority inside of the Grand Blvd semi-circle. Create the three districts that you mentioned with whatever level of autonomy they wish and include every other local municipality in the same way. So now if you live in the former Tri-county area, now know as Metro Detroit, your entitled to vote for a Regional Executive and would see the current tax paid to SMART[[about $60/yr) be removed from your current local taxes and come back as a regional tax[[between $100 - $200 like other regions) which goes toward building and operating transit and rebuilding the central core of the region. This authority could take over the former city of Detroit’s debit in exchange for principle city assets [[like Water Works) in order to allow the three newly formed semi-autonomous districts to have a fresh start.

[casscorridor]

Oakland County is the self-proclaimed economic engine of Michigan, yet Michigan has had the highest unemployment in the nation for nearly a decade. Enough said.

The economic leech of Michigan. leeching jobs, businesses, housing, investment and even sports teams away from Detroit, then declaring itself the engine of economic development. Now they [[in conjunction with Macomb) want to the majority of the new transit system to be in their county via northern Woodward Ave, Gratiot Ave and M-59.

Other posters have pointed out that when transit disappeared from the core neighborhoods, the people soon followed. What really needs to happen is that transit is concentrated in the core neighborhoods, even in areas that are so-called "emptied out" because they are compatible with transit while suburbs are not. Have you noticed how each successive layer of suburbs slowly becomes "outdated?" Many of the inner ring suburbs [[minus ferndale/royal oak, the pointes and maybe dearborn) have gone out of style, even ones such as Livonia or Sterling Heights. The "in" is the newest growth at the fringe. And each layer is homogeneous, so it hard for the previous layers to adapt. Unlike real urban neighborhoods which evolve over time, with houses and buildings built during various times.

We should build commuter rails into from the suburbs to bring people into the city, but the mass transit should focus on the within the city and reach to the inner-ring suburbs which will also need to densify [[Dearborn, Royal Oak, Downriver), which is where the compromise will need to come from. Instead of ending lines at the city border, continue a few miles into the burbs, but going all the way north to M-59 is outrageous.

And within the core neighborhoods, completely rebuild the streetcar system, as it was before being dismantled in the 40's and 50's. Modern streetcar, of course. If we would have not dismantled the system, we could have replaced some of the most congested routes with heavy-rail transit, such as on Woodward or Jefferson. We would have had a very dense and vibrant city with one of the best transit systems in the country. We can still do this. We just need people to think bigger than a few mile light-rail.

[dtowncitylover]

So I think we know how to re-populate the city. By reducing the crime and drug rate through better policing and response times, better schools, mass transit, growth of jobs in the city.

How can Detroit fix the housing problem that a new population will need? Does anyone envision the mass building of housing in the "plains" of Detroit. A large scale effort to fix up abondanded homes? If there is "farming" in city, will people come before plants? Meaning, will housing have priority over farms?

As person who know too much about the city a white 20-yo suburbanite should know, my public speaking teacher said, "We're going to talk about the downsizing of Detroit. I really want to know what "dtowncitylover" thinks about that." We took a test today so we never did talk about, next time probably.

[hamtown mike]

mike - c'mon, it's more than just saving the gas used in garbage pick up. the idea would be to completely put sections of Detroit off the grid entirely. That is more than just saving gas. Can it work? Should it even be tried? I don't know. But it's definitely about more than $45 bucks a year.

I get it, but what costs are associated with being "on the grid" that the city covers? Does the city subsidize water for the residents? Electric? Cable television? I sure as hell know they barely maintain the roads.

All I'm asking is where's the math?

So let's say Detroit starts shutting down sections. [[again I am a fan of this proposal) Here's my list of "savings and losses". Please add or subtract as you see fit. Nothing is too ridiculous-I even noted the loss of bus shelter advertising revenue in closed sections of the city. Seriously Have at- I'm just some schmuck from Hamtramck who realizes the the success of Detroit could only mean good things for those surrounding areas. [[Or areas surrounded by the D)

Lay off garbage-men.
Maintain fewer garbageg trucks.
Layoff Garbage administrators.
Pay less to dispose of garbage.
Save on electricity powering street lamps.
Save on street maintenance.
Close postal routes. [[or is this federally funded?)
Layoff postal employees. [[or is this federally funded?)
layoff postal administrators. [[or is this federally funded?)
Maintain fewer postal vehicles. [[or is this federally funded?)
Layoff firefighters.
Maintain fewer pieces of firefighting equipment/facilities.
Layoff fire dept administrators.
Close schools. [[not sure what % is city funded if any)
Layoff teachers. [[not sure what % is city funded if any)
Close bus lines [[how much of d-dot and m-dot is city funded?)
Save on bus fuel [[how much of d-dot and m-dot is city funded?)
Maintain fewer buses.
Save on repairing bus shelters
lose revenue for bus shelter advertising.
Layoff police officers.
Layoff police administration.
Maintain fewer police sub stations.
Let fields go au-natural-saving on city owned lot maintenance.
sewer water line repair [[is this on the city? would think judging by the bills these costs get past on to the consumer-sorry did I say "passed on to"? I meant "jammed up their asses".)
Fair market value of each house
Abandon city parks in closed areas saving on maintenance
Cost to demolish each house [[Last check it was $30 k per house-but that may have been the padded friends-of-Kwame contract price)
Cost to abandon or deadhead gas/water lines.

[sumas]

As far as I know eminent domain was reserved for roadways but used to exploit poor areas and dislocate citizens. But I do retract my comment regarding cost of city services to blighted areas, I forgot about schools. Sorry!

[Russix]

Considering that most of those services are currently considered terrible by outside standpoints I don't think there will be any reductions. Will the cost of moving people/shrinking the city ever justify itself? Could this whole idea be an excuse for a land grab?

[Detroitnerd]

When they want to "help" other cities, they build things. When they want to "help" Detroit, the knock stuff down or take it apart. Hmmmmm ...

[Tig3rzhark]

I would have to agree that a united Metro Detroit government should happen one day, however...

I'm not very confident of that happening while I'm alive, with the city and the suburbs continuing to be hostile toward each other while the fire burns within Detroit spreading around the metropolitan area.

It will take a long while for metro Detroit to rise from the ashes.

[bailey]

I get it, but what costs are associated with being "on the grid" that the city covers? Does the city subsidize water for the residents? Electric? Cable television? I sure as hell know they barely maintain the roads.

All I'm asking is where's the math?

I believe the point of the consolidation [[as proposed by bing) would not be the massive layoffs you are listing there, but to provide quality service to a smaller area. As is pointed out on this thread and countless others, Detroit's services, police response, etc. suck balls...and not in a good way. The point of moving the few remaining inhabitants of a virtually abandoned area is to get them to where the services can more efficiently be provided, thus increasing the quality of life to all.

Will the numbers work? I dont know, that's for Bing to show. I would tend to agree with you that the "just compensation" given would like outweigh any significant or immediate gains. Also, who's to say that a person given 40k for their house is going to move to Warrendale instead of Ferndale...or Florida? but think longer term, maybe there is an argument for moving people to have two or three solid neighborhoods with little blight, retention of inhabitants, few vacant homes, and competitive city services instead of 6 or 7 neighborhoods with the same shitty status quo and/or getting worse as the stronger areas continue to lose people?

When they want to "help" other cities, they build things. When they want to "help" Detroit, the knock stuff down or take it apart. Hmmmmm ...

First of all, the "they" talking about it is the Mayor of the City nto some cabal of evil suburbanites...but yeah, 'they' do build things elsewhere to spur growth. they build things like housing, schools, shopping areas...etc. What would you like Detroit to build with 1 out of 3 houses standing empty, with already too many schools for the dwindling population, and a CBD that can't seem to support a coffee shop, let alone a Macy's. I guess Detroit could pay the macedonian parking don to build a new hockey area though...maybe another casino?

I mean, besides mass transit on a scale larger than being proposed, what does Detroit "need" built?

[Gsgeorge]

I really anticipate this affection 5 - 8 thousand residents tops. The areas that will be shut down have less than 0-200 people living in them.

Relocation to federally-subsidized housing in 'core' or targeted areas will be provided as a cheap, desirable option. Those who want to leave for another city if they've always dreamed of getting out, can.

[Russix]

I would have to agree that a united Metro Detroit government should happen one day, however...

I'm not very confident of that happening while I'm alive, with the city and the suburbs continuing to be hostile toward each other while the fire burns within Detroit spreading around the metropolitan area.

It will take a long while for metro Detroit to rise from the ashes.

There are different levels of municipal autonomy. We could create a Metro government tomorrow that only collected .00001 of a cent annually from every citizen in order to pay for the webhosting of said government's web site. If everyone realized that this worked out okay and that it actually performed it's responsibilities reasonable well, then more services/tasks could be consolidated into it. I also think some requirements could be made universal/mandatory [[like transit) and most other options should be made optional [[like police or schools). Ultimately the metro government should be offered up as an incentive to each municipality so they can figure out for themselves if they want to keep running a service themselves or just pay the Metro government to do it for them[[which the metro government should be able to do better or cheaper or both).

[stasu1213]

I had made a mistake when I had blended my quote with Royce's. I had said that I think that the Detroit City Airport will take up many of the neighborhoods north of Conners going down Gratiot towards McNichols. I could also see a Birch Run type open outlet mall in areas where blyted neighborhoods used to be. I think corporations will divide Detroit like a pie.

[Hermod]

There are different levels of municipal autonomy. We could create a Metro government tomorrow that only collected .00001 of a cent annually from every citizen in order to pay for the webhosting of said government's web site. If everyone realized that this worked out okay and that it actually performed it's responsibilities reasonable well, then more services/tasks could be consolidated into it. I also think some requirements could be made universal/mandatory [[like transit) and most other options should be made optional [[like police or schools). Ultimately the metro government should be offered up as an incentive to each municipality so they can figure out for themselves if they want to keep running a service themselves or just pay the Metro government to do it for them[[which the metro government should be able to do better or cheaper or both).

Unless it is directed by the sate or ordered by a court, there will be no metro area government. Neither of the two counties wishes to shoulder Detroit's burden [[nor does the rest of Wayne County).