What can be done to stop scrappers?

[drjeff]

Everyone know that scrapping is a huge problem in the city. When a house goes from vacant and intact to vacant and destroyed by scrappers, it loses most of its value and rapidly becomes yet another eyesore in the community. It's even worse when it happens to major buildings downtown with no apparent repercussions. Why does the city not place a higher priority on stopping this? What can be done? It's sad that vacant houses/buildings have to be boarded up quickly or else they become targets for these vermin. This makes the quality of life for all Detroiters poorer.

[ndavies]

Everyone know that scrapping is a huge problem in the city. When a house goes from vacant and intact to vacant and destroyed by scrappers, it loses most of its value and rapidly becomes yet another eyesore in the community. It's even worse when it happens to major buildings downtown with no apparent repercussions. Why does the city not place a higher priority on stopping this? What can be done? It's sad that vacant houses/buildings have to be boarded up quickly or else they become targets for these vermin. This makes the quality of life for all Detroiters poorer.

I think the police are busy with Murders, shootings, rapes, thefts, burglaries, drug deals........ Oh wait they can't even handle those.

I think crimes against individuals should definitely come before crimes against empty buildings. Unfortunately the police are far overtaxed in the all the things they need to patrol against.

[Whitehouse]

Dutch answer; squatting. Over here in the Netherlands it's even legal to squat a building if it stands empty for one year, provided that there absolutely no building activity takes place. It really helps taking care of the opportunists. A building owner has to go to court to clear his building, to great cost and a lot of publicity.

[Retroit]

How about if any metal brought to a scrap yard must be accompanied by a permit issued by the city which lists all material in detail by a city inspector prior to removal. Any scrap yard owner who does not verify the accuracy of the permit and materials submitted will be thrown in jail and their business will be confiscated. And undercover inspectors will test the scrap yards for compliance.

[ndavies]

Considering it's already illegal, and the city already requires the scrap yards to keep the scrappers ID on file, what makes you think adding another law to the books will make any difference?

http://library1.municode.com:80/defa...infobase=10649

Sec. 38-4-7. Removal of bricks, piping, etc., from vacant buildings.
It shall be unlawful for any person; except an officer, employee or contractual agent of a governmental agency in the performance of a public duty; to remove bricks; piping; plumbing, lighting or heating fixtures or appliances; iron, brass, copper, tin, zinc, aluminum or other scrap metal materials or other appurtenances from any vacant structure in the city without the express written authorization of the property owner, lessee, agent or trustee thereof

and
http://library1.municode.com:80/defa...infobase=10649

Sec. 49-8-5. Records to be kept for examination; examination of certain articles by police.[[a) Except as otherwise provided for in this section, every scrap iron and metal processor shall make available for examination, on request, to the police department, or inspectors designated to enforce this article, a complete record of the following information concerning every transaction for the exchange, purchase, or receipt of junk:

[[1) A photocopy of the driver's license or state identification card of the person from whom the junk was purchased or received;

[[2) Where the junk is delivered in a motor vehicle, the state license plate number;

[[3) Where the junk is delivered by a junk dealer, or by a junk collector, in a junk vehicle that is licensed under Chapter 49, Article VII, of this Code, the junk dealer's or junk collector's business license number, and the junk vehicle's business license plate number;

[[4) Where the junk is delivered by a licensed contractor, or an employee or subcontractor of the licensed contractor, engaged in construction or reconstruction, or a trade person engaged in construction or reconstruction, a photocopy of the contractor's or trade person's occupation license;

[[5) A statement from the person whom the junk was purchased, or received, from that provides:

[[i) A description of the junk sold by, or delivered to, the scrap iron and metal processor and, where the person is delivering junk that is subject to the requirement of section 49-8-10[[b) of this Code, a written receipt or other documentation which indicates where the junk was obtained by the person and a copy of such written receipt or other documentation;

[[ii) A declaration that the junk was not obtained by theft or any other unlawful manner;

[[iii) A declaration that to the best of the person's knowledge and belief the information in the statement is true and complete; and

[[iv) The signature of the person; and

[[6) Where the person from whom junk was received claims that the junk was discarded by the owner, the address of the owner where the junk was found discarded or, where no building or address is nearby, the name of the nearest intersection where the junk was found; and

[[7) Where the person is not a junk dealer who is licensed under Chapter 49, Article VII, of this Code, or a junk collector who is licensed under Chapter 49, Article VII, of this Code, or a licensed contractor or trade person engaged in construction or reconstruction, a legible finger or thumb print of the person from who the junk was obtained.

All records that are required to be created under this section shall be retained by the scrap iron and metal processor for at least one [[1) year from the date that the junk was delivered.

[[b) Every scrap iron and metal processor shall provide, on request, for examination by the Police Department or a designated enforcement officer, all articles or materials bought or received that are currently on its premises.

[[c) It shall be unlawful for a scrap iron and metal processor to fail to create and maintain records are required by this section.

[[d) This section shall not apply:

[[1) To new articles, wares or merchandise purchased at wholesale from manufacturers, wholesale distributors or jobbers for retail sales to customers;

[[2) To rags, waste paper, books, magazines, tapestries, antiques, or household goods, except computers, radios, televisions, media players, and electrical appliances;

[[3) To industrial scrap; or

[[4) To salvage vehicles purchased from a licensed secondhand dealer licensed under Chapter 49, Article IV, of this Code, or from a junk dealer licensed under Chapter 49, Article VII, of this Code, or from a salvage vehicle agent as defined in section 49-8-1 of this Code.

[[Ord. No. 38-06, § 1, 11-17-06)

[sumas]

Here in EEV we have had our problems with scrappers too. Police response would be nice. Called on scrappers gutting the house next door in broad daylight and police refused to respond because I wasn't the owner. An investment company bought it and did some repairs but at least they put an alarm in now.

Neighbor on the other side saw a house across the street being gutted. Same thing no police. The amusing thing is they surgically removed the kitchen and a bathroom. The house later sold for super cheap but the new owner was thrilled to design her own kitchen. Her house is just gorgeous now.

Here in EEV we call our vacant homes Emma houses. We adopt these vacant properties and keep in eye on them. My husband and I have two adopted homes we watch. So many others around here do so much more.

Great neighbors and police response are the ticket. Put civilians behind the desks and deploy more cars.

[sumas]

Forgot, we also park extra cars in vacant home driveways so they look occupied. Pain in the but, when it snows, but worth it to keep crime down.

[Retroit]

ndavies, there is a big difference between having a city inspector issue a permit after specifically inspecting and listing materials to be scrapped, and simply trusting whatever b.s. a scrapper tells the scrap yard.

Is this realistic?:

[[5) A statement from the person whom the junk was purchased, or received, from that provides:
[[ii) A declaration that the junk was not obtained by theft or any other unlawful manner

[ndavies]

ndavies, there is a big difference between having a city inspector issue a permit after specifically inspecting and listing materials to be scrapped, and simply trusting whatever b.s. a scrapper tells the scrap yard.

Is this realistic?:

You already have laws that aren't being enforced and you think adding more laws that won't be enforced is going to fix the problem?

How are you going to add inspectors to verify this stuff. The city is looking to cut huge numbers out of the budget. The only way to cut huge numbers is to reduce the workforce, not add to it.

You can't really expect the city to funnel resources into scrap enforcement when they already can't put resources into Police, fire, lighting, transportation, parks, infrastructrure, schools...................

You're delusional if you think anything is going to change before the budget disaster is dealt with. Adding new laws is just taking time away from what the mayor and council should be doing to fix the budget disaster.

It's just like the new strip club laws. A complete waste of time until you fix the budgetary issues the city is struggling to get through.

[Retroit]

I wasn't suggesting that the permits be issued for free. This program would pay for itself and perhaps even contribute revenue to the general fund.

[softailrider]

I've owned dozens of rental properties in the city [[ I have none now, thank god ) A lot of times these so call scrappers are neighbors who live on the same street. The same day a renter moves or is thrown out it's like a silent drumroll goes through the neighborhood and then, after the sun goes down you wouldn't believe what happens - everybody just helps themselves to anything of value. Not just copper water lines - toilets, sinks, furances, carpeting, anything that's not nailed down or is nailed down is fair game.

With no police response to this type of crime, the only way I know how to avoid it is to keep somebody in the house. A 24 hour guard is the only way to keep people out.

[Zacha341]

Oh, yeah don't forget all the bodies piled up at the morgue and the rape kits or the forensic evidence not yet processed. Oh, wait that was terrible to say [[just in a bad mood ). No, but seriously there does have to be some prioritizing but the scrappin', and stripping fest does not need to end -- or get a few of these metal yards busted... but how? The stuff becomes crushed or does it? Junk yard full of freshly pulled bronze tomb stones should be investigated right?

I think the police are busy with Murders, shootings, rapes, thefts, burglaries, drug deals........ Oh wait they can't even handle those.

I think crimes against individuals should definitely come before crimes against empty buildings. Unfortunately the police are far overtaxed in the all the things they need to patrol against.

[casscorridor]

scrappers are a problem yes. but most of these houses would sit for a decade empty anyway. and scrapping is putting bread on the table for the scrappers, bread they probably wouldn't otherwise have.

An equaly bad problem, but I have a hard time tolerating at all, are the "urban explorers." The majority of them are just curious and want to see abandoned historic buildings, but a minority goes into these buildings and rampages everything. The train station, for example, is ransacked. Every last window is smashed. "T R O Y" spray painted on the columns. Shit just gets broken, spray painted, smashed, stolen, etc until the building is in complete disrepair and gets slated to demolition. This has happened time and time again. Therefore, I don't really condone exploring these buildings at all. No matter who you are, unless you have explicit permission.

Scrappers usually target houses and smaller buildings, but [suburban] "urban explorers" target high-profile, historic buildings of architectural significance. The best way to protect these buildings is to require owners to secure their buildings or forfeit the title. Example of a fairly secured building: Book Tower. Example of a shoddily secured building: Cass Tech. The differences are shocking.

There are little resources to devote to stopping scrappers. We should stop the urban explorers first before they ransack every last historic building still standing.

[wolverine]

Let's first establish that the everyday citizen isn't going to walk to the scrapyard with 500 feet of copper wire, or 100 linear feet of piping.

So why not treat copper in the CoD like any other recyclable material. You get nothing in return....Unless you were a licensed contracting business and had bulk quantities of this stuff.

But Joe Smith, renovating the upstairs bathroom isn't going to take the time to cash in 20 feet of copper wire. But if someone is doing that they:

1. Have way too much time on their hands
or
2. Are doing something illegal

[sumas]

Cass, I respectfully disagree. Two years ago we had thirteen vacant homes on our block of 42 homes. All were sold and rehabed. Currently there are two new ones. In a strong community we can fight blight.

Scrappers are just bloody thiefs. If they want bread on the table get food stamps.

I do agree that it is disgusting what some so called urban adventurers do. I call them vandals.

[Stosh]

scrappers are a problem yes. but most of these houses would sit for a decade empty anyway. and scrapping is putting bread on the table for the scrappers, bread they probably wouldn't otherwise have.

I also disagree. Scrappers are thieves, plain and simple. Scrapping a home just guarantees that the home will never be rehabbed, since the materials and damage to the home involved are so extensive that makes any restoration cost prohibitive.

It's a neighborhood issue. If the neighbors allow it, so it happens. If they don't, it's the police's job to come out and arrest. If they don't come, then there's nothing you can do. Unless you want to stop them yourselves.

[daddeeo]

Umm let's see, how about looters [[scrappers) will be shot on sight?
Think that might slow em down?

[LeannaM]

booby traps.

I've also heard the "shoot on sight" idea before. That would be a media nightmare, though.

[Toolbox]

Lead poisoning, disabling their vehicle, board them up in the house they are scrapping.

[sumas]

Tool, that is funny. Not very brave personally though. Just wish police would come when you call.

I consider scrapping to be every bit as damaging as car jackings etc. If our neighborhoods fail, it just makes way for scum to come in and prey on who is left.

[Fury13]

Seriously, just shoot 'em.

Same thing with any arsonist spotted on Angels' Night.

If such people thought there was a good possibility they might DIE, scrapping/looting/arson/etc. wouldn't be as frequent.

Zero tolerance for the scumbags. There's no police force to speak of, so citizens should be able to act on their own.

[Cpt Zeus]

I have personnally stopped scrappers several times in my neighborhood. It takes some personnal courage and helps that I own a gun. Twice it was aluminum thieves in broad day light. When they start pulling off the siding it can be loud! These people don't think twice about the devestation they cause. I am sometimes embarassed to have friends over to the house because they drive down my street and see this "Economic Katrina" that has hit our city.

[LodgeDodger]

I also disagree. Scrappers are thieves, plain and simple. Scrapping a home just guarantees that the home will never be rehabbed, since the materials and damage to the home involved are so extensive that makes any restoration cost prohibitive.

It's a neighborhood issue. If the neighbors allow it, so it happens. If they don't, it's the police's job to come out and arrest. If they don't come, then there's nothing you can do. Unless you want to stop them yourselves.

I agree 100% Stosh.

[Bullet]

The best way to deter scrappers is to de-incentive them by taking the profit motive out of scrapping. History shows us that you get less of any activity when it is taxed. Just look at our economy now. [[I am not pro-tax. I just know how this works)

[TKshreve]

Think that might slow em down?

Slow em down - sure ....... or you might run out of scrappers to shoot. Either way your on the right track.