Packard plant as a WW2 memorial?

[iheartthed]

Has the city ever explored this idea? Detroit played one of the biggest roles in the war effort. Why not turn one of the obsolete plants into a memorial of this contribution?

[KENSINGTONY]

Your suggestion rekindled a crazy idea I had a while back.That was to have a later 20th century version of Greenfield Village.But I realized that space would be a problem.There just aren't that many places to move an office building or a factory of the size built in the 20s or 30s.And then,which ones to save because they can't ALL be saved[[ I can hear the preservationists teeth gnashing now).How about if we just turn downtown into a giant early/ mid 20th century life exhibit?

[neighbor]

Excellent idea!!! It already looks like many cities in postwar Europe and Japan.

[Retroit]

Wouldn't a WWII memorial offend the sensibilities of Revisionist Historians? I mean, aren't we supposed to feel remorse for mercilessly bombing the poor German and Japanese people?

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to use the plant as a memorial for the post-war effort of rebuilding German and Japan, which ultimately is what led to the demise of the factory, the end of the American auto industry's supremacy, the end of America's economic supremacy, and the end of Detroit itself.

[iheartthed]

Wouldn't a WWII memorial offend the sensibilities of Revisionist Historians? I mean, aren't we supposed to feel remorse for mercilessly bombing the poor German and Japanese people?

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to use the plant as a memorial for the post-war effort of rebuilding German and Japan, which ultimately is what led to the demise of the factory, the end of the American auto industry's supremacy, the end of America's economic supremacy, and the end of Detroit itself.

There is certain irony of you speaking of revisionist historians in your first paragraph, while doing a bit of major revisioning of history in your second.

[cman710]

That could possibly work for part of the plant, given its size. The location is not ideal for drawing tourists, but if done well, I am sure it could be successful. It would require loads of money, though.

[iheartthed]

That could possibly work for part of the plant, given its size. The location is not ideal for drawing tourists, but if done well, I am sure it could be successful. It would require loads of money, though.

I was thinking that such a memorial would be enough of a draw that it wouldn't have to depend on casual foot traffic to support it. In a sense, it would be like Greenfield Village, or the Motown Museum. Also, given its proximity to I-94, and the lack of development surrounding it, there would be plenty of room for buses and a parking structure [[better there than downtown).

As for the funding... This would ideally be something funded by the federal government, like all other national memorials.

[cman710]

If done on a large enough scale, I agree that the location would not be a major problem, given freeway proximity.

Realistically, I agree that the federal government is really the only entity that would be able to put up the kind of money needed for such a museum. It could potentially be quite a museum, though.

I am not environmental engineer, but it would also probably be easier to conduct environmental mediation for a site that was going to be used for museum or industrial use, since no one would ever be living on the site and the problem spots could be contained.

[RickBeall]

Actually, location wise, it's not bad. I think you can see it from I-94. Also, you can follow E Grand Boulevard right to where it dead ends at Belle Isle.

It's a creative idea.

Although, being the wag I am, I immediately thought of making another, matching thread "Detroit as a WW2 memorial?". Luckily, I thought better than that. ;-)

[Russix]

Wasn't Packard a fairly occupied industrial park before Archer decided to screw with it? How can the city not be held liable for damages to this property and shouldn't they be responsible for at least restoring it into usable industrial space? I can understand the city mistakenly demolishing houses but it's not like there's another Packard plant right next to this one that looks just like it.

[Detroitej72]

Wasn't Packard a fairly occupied industrial park before Archer decided to screw with it?

Yes. There were about 100 or so businesses located.

How can the city not be held liable for damages to this property and shouldn't they be responsible for at least restoring it into usable industrial space?

Where will a broke city get that kind of money from, Kwame's restitution payments?

[East Detroit]

Actually, location wise, it's not bad. I think you can see it from I-94. Also, you can follow E Grand Boulevard right to where it dead ends at Belle Isle.

It's a creative idea.

Although, being the wag I am, I immediately thought of making another, matching thread "Detroit as a WW2 memorial?". Luckily, I thought better than that. ;-)

But still thought it was clever to mention.

Personally, I think it's clever to mention that you should probably actually drive down I-94 before making blanket statements about the city.

[Mikeg]

From the web site of the Packard Proving Grounds Historic Site in Shelby Township:

Current proposals for a master plan for the property include an "Arsenal of Democracy" museum dedicated to the contributions of all automobile companies during wartime, a museum of automotive testing covering all makes and companies....

[iheartthed]

From the web site of the Packard Proving Grounds Historic Site in Shelby Township:

Interesting.

[Hermod]

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to use the plant as a memorial for the post-war effort of rebuilding German and Japan, which ultimately is what led to the demise of the factory, the end of the American auto industry's supremacy, the end of America's economic supremacy, and the end of Detroit itself.

Packard went under long before the first Japanese car made it to these shores. The only significant imports at the time packard went under were the VW Beetles and "microvans" neither of which competed with Packard.

Packard was a luxury car that didn't have sufficient market penetration to raise capital to modernize their aging and obsolete factory. They merged with Studebaker and found that Studebaker's South Bend plant was in just as bad a shape.

Hudson had much of the same problem that Packard had and neither one was "put under" by imports. They survived the depression which killed a large number of car companies and then wore out their factories with war production. In the fifties, they were trying to compete and stay alive with 1920s facilities.

[Russix]

Where will a broke city get that kind of money from, Kwame's restitution payments?

He could be fenced inside the compound and not allowed to leave until he completes a full renovation. I'd take that as restitution over his constant whining sessions.

[Ray1936]

Which reminds me of my favorite movie goof. In "Patton", George C. Scott arrives at headquarters in 1945 in a 1949 Packard. Let's see, that's called an anachron....anchronois.....anacon.......uh, a goof.

[Retroit]

Packard went under long before the first Japanese car made it to these shores. The only significant imports at the time packard went under were the VW Beetles and "microvans" neither of which competed with Packard.

Packard was a luxury car that didn't have sufficient market penetration to raise capital to modernize their aging and obsolete factory. They merged with Studebaker and found that Studebaker's South Bend plant was in just as bad a shape.

Hudson had much of the same problem that Packard had and neither one was "put under" by imports. They survived the depression which killed a large number of car companies and then wore out their factories with war production. In the fifties, they were trying to compete and stay alive with 1920s facilities.

That is all very true, but I wasn't blaming the import of autos as the problem as much as I was blaming the export of capital. While the U.S. government was spending our money to rebuild factories in Germany and Japan, factories in Detroit were becoming obsolete.

[Hermod]

That is all very true, but I wasn't blaming the import of autos as the problem as much as I was blaming the export of capital. While the U.S. government was spending our money to rebuild factories in Germany and Japan, factories in Detroit were becoming obsolete.

The German factories were rebuilt under the Marshall Plan to save Europe from the commies. Japan was rebuilt by being the logistics base for the UN war in Korea. The Japanese auto companies got their first post-war business rebuilding and overhauling WWII US trucks and weapons which had been left behind in the Pacific after WWII for use in Korea.

[Lowell]

Unfortunately Packard's Arsenal of Democracy credentials are forever scarred by its history as an arsenal of racism that permeated from management on down. A June 1943 wildcat by 25,000 Eruo American workers protesting the promotion of 3 Afro American workers to the assembly line [then converted to bomber engine production] was the culmination of a series of lesser wildcat hate strikes and, arguably, fueled the sentiments for the 1943 riot that followed three weeks later.

Hardly the picture of loyal Americans industrially striving to save the world for democracy since by their actions they put their hatreds ahead of their country's defense.

[Whitehouse]

A building as a memorial is quite common in Europe. Here in the Netherlands I can think of two examples. First there's Scheveningen prison [[still in use and most famous for it's yugoslav population, like Milosivic ann Karadsic) and the Amsterdam Hollandse schouwburg, a former theater where the Jewish population was rounded up by the Germans, after which the Jews ended up in Auschwitz. Only thne walls still stand but they are maintained to prevent further decay.

[Hermod]

Unfortunately Packard's Arsenal of Democracy credentials are forever scarred by its history as an arsenal of racism that permeated from management on down. A June 1943 wildcat by 25,000 Eruo American workers protesting the promotion of 3 Afro American workers to the assembly line [then converted to bomber engine production] was the culmination of a series of lesser wildcat hate strikes and, arguably, fueled the sentiments for the 1943 riot that followed three weeks later.

Hardly the picture of loyal Americans industrially striving to save the world for democracy since by their actions they put their hatreds ahead of their country's defense.

A lot of the construction and craft unions were racially exclusive as well. Blacks were pretty much limited to the Hod Carriers union on construction jobs. This went on up into the 70s.

Ethnic discrimination in hiring was common and while blacks were on the bottom of the pile, other were disadvantaged as well.

For a long time in Detroit, this was the pattern;

Management: Anglo-Saxon

Tool making and skilled trades: Germans and Scandinavians

Assembly Line: Eastern Europeans

Factory Services: Italians

Menial Jobs: Blacks

[Retroit]

Unfortunately Packard's Arsenal of Democracy credentials are forever scarred by its history as an arsenal of racism that permeated from management on down. A June 1943 wildcat by 25,000 Eruo American workers protesting the promotion of 3 Afro American workers to the assembly line [then converted to bomber engine production] was the culmination of a series of lesser wildcat hate strikes and, arguably, fueled the sentiments for the 1943 riot that followed three weeks later.

Hardly the picture of loyal Americans industrially striving to save the world for democracy since by their actions they put their hatreds ahead of their country's defense.

Isn't this a an unfair interpretation of history? I don't think that the "[Euro-American]" factory workers hated blacks as much as they hated their European relatives who were exterminating the Jews and other minority groups.

[Mikeg]

Unfortunately Packard's Arsenal of Democracy credentials are forever scarred by its history as an arsenal of racism that permeated from management on down. A June 1943 wildcat by 25,000 Eruo American workers protesting the promotion of 3 Afro American workers to the assembly line [then converted to bomber engine production] was the culmination of a series of lesser wildcat hate strikes and, arguably, fueled the sentiments for the 1943 riot that followed three weeks later.

Hardly the picture of loyal Americans industrially striving to save the world for democracy since by their actions they put their hatreds ahead of their country's defense.

Yes, yes, we are forever scarred by the stain of racism that was practiced by our forefathers and we must constantly acknowledge that fact and remind ourselves that we as a society aren't much better than they were. Let's start a letter writing campaign to the volunteers at the Packard Motor Car Foundation and let them know that their whitewashing of history will not be tolerated. While we are at it, letters should go to The Henry Ford, the Walter P. Chrysler Museum, etc. to demand that they remove any exhibits that mention their participation in the war effort unless they are accompanied by an admission of their management's and employee's racist behavior. We cannot rest until we have successfully revised the false popular perception of Detroit having been the "Arsenal of Democracy" !

But what to call us? "Arsenal of a deeply flawed Democracy"? "Arsenal of a country not worthy of its freedoms"? "Arsenal of a country full of racists"? "Arsenal of a country with no hope for a better future"? Or as penance for our sins, do we just want to wipe out the perception that Detroit accomplished anything during the war?

Pointing fingers and focusing on how we portray the mistakes of the past is so much easier than working in the now to improve equal opportunities for all.

[Lowell]

You are getting carried away. The discussion here is about Packard specifically as a WWII arsenal of democracy site, not about the entire history racism in industry.

The hate-based wildcat strikes at Packard were exceptional and relate directly to the war effort. They halted work at a most vital war production facility and bordered on sabotage and treason. They fueled a forth coming riot that did further damage to production in a time of crisis. My point was the there are plenty of other sites that did their work diligently, didn't let their disagreements hurt the war effort and would better represent Detroit both in term of arsenal and democracy.