race- maybe?

[FerndaleDamon]

Can anyone tell me why Detroit has deteriorated so much in recent years? It's not the money. When I was a kid , my family didn't have that much money, yet we maintained a nice home and neighborhood. What's different now? Black people have had control of city government for some 35-40 yrs. now. You can't blame the current state of things on people who left. That's lame. And absolutely false. Yet, all we hear is how people who "abandonded" the city are to blame. Complete bullshit.

[FerndaleDamon]

The area around Springwells/Vernor is thriving. Open storefronts- busy traffic. That's a testament to the hard working/solid Mexican-American residents in that area. I applaud them. That's great! I know times are tough. The point is- "do something"- be pro-active. For most of the city, I haven
't seen that.

[English]

Sheer numbers. You can't maintain a city that is ~140 square miles solely on the backs of a poor and undereducated underclass who have internalized everything that people like you believe about them.

[Zacha341]

Well stated....

Sheer numbers. You can't maintain a city that is ~140 square miles solely on the backs of a poor and undereducated underclass who have internalized everything that people like you believe about them.

[FerndaleDamon]

Sure, English I understand that. But I'm sick of the "blame thing"- where everyone blames the state of things[[ at the core of it ) on people who left. You can't do it! My family was on welfare, actually! But we still had the dignity to keep our house up & the grass cut! Something's different- somehow, someway!

[showstoppa]

this is a topic I have waited to comment on this forum ! I think it's multiple things. Race issues is a huge one.I don't mean whites against blacks, but also blacks against whites ! From what I know, many white people want to move into the city, but they don't feel welcome. Too much dependencny on the auto industry is another. I feel Detroit has all the potential in the world ,but we need to embrace a diverse economy [[which at one point we had, different thread). Finally we need to rid the city of all the corruption in city government. What I mean by that is we have people in government that look at the next job. [[i.e. school board members are politicians as opposed to educators, police department heads are not law enforcement experts etc.) we need to invite and welcome from all parts of the world in order to bring the city back ! Robert Bobb and Dave Bing are starts. I look forward to comments and debates from forum users regarding my opinions !

[FerndaleDamon]

I'm very impressed with Bob Bobb. He seems like somebody who can get things done. He might be a start.

[English]

Sure, English I understand that. But I'm sick of the "blame thing"- where everyone blames the state of things[[ at the core of it ) on people who left.

Actually, most of the blame falls on current Detroiters in the national and international imagination. Those who leave are considered wise.

I used to blame those who left when I was a child. We all believe silly things when we are young, and often listen to what we are told. Now that I am an adult woman, I don't really mourn the presence of people who left Detroit long before I was born. They grieve for a city that I never knew, and to be quite honest, feel a bit ambivalent toward. While I am sympathetic and love to hear stories of Detroit in the 1940s and 1950s, the past will never return.

As I have same on these forums before, the seeds of the Detroit of today were concealed at the heart of that industrial paradise that everyone longs for. I never knew that Detroit. My Detroit is the haunted, crumbling Detroit of the fabulous ruins that this website celebrates, and it is in my soul.

My family was on welfare, actually! But we still had the dignity to keep our house up & the grass cut!

So was mine, at least a few of them. So did mine. My grandmother won awards for her landscaping of our block. For well over 30 years after the riots, my childhood home was a good, working class neighborhood not too far from Highland Park. It was safe and everyone knew each other. It was also majority Black. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Most of my extended family still lives in the city. I've recently gotten a very good job there and plan to return as soon as I am financially able.

Something's different- somehow, someway!

Yes, there are some racial, ethnic and cultural differences between all of us. We have different languages, foods, customs, skin and eye colors, and hair types. Sure.

But I am human, just like you. Until we figure that out, even the most glittering and urbane of postmodern metropoli is doomed to fail.

[mwilbert]

A half-empty city full of poor people just isn't going to look as good or function as well as a populated city full of middle-class people. I don't know about "blaming" the people who left, but in a world where they hadn't left, the city would be in better shape.

I want Detroit to be the best half-empty city full of poor people it can be. If it can do that, it won't stay poor and half-empty.

[royce]

There are so many causes for Detroit's decline. Race plays a huge part. Regarding race, the following events speak volumes: the trial of Dr. Ossian Sweet; the conflict at the Sojourner Truth Homes; the riot of '43; redlining; the clearing of Hastings Street for the Chrysler Freeway; the treatment of blacks by the predominately white police force, which led to the '67 riot; white flight; and the election of Coleman Young.Non-race issues that affected Detroit's decline: the oil shortage; closings of manufacturing plants due to foreign competition and cheap labor over seas; the loss of jobs due to the closing of those manufacturing plants; welfare; crime; slumlords; crack cocaine; declining schools; declining property values; and John Engler.Another issue that white suburbanites don't seem to understand about the decline of Detroit is that in the '60s prior to the riot of '67, whites owned the majority of businesses. Once whites left under white flight, they took their businesses. Since blacks did not own many of the businesses, storefronts became vacant, neighborhood residents, especially teenagers, didn't have jobs, crime increased. Also, because many blacks worked for the Big Three and jobs were being lost because of the oil shortage, competition, and jobs being shipped overseas, black neighborhoods declined. Throw in crack cocaine and slumlords in the 1980s and you have more decline in the neighborhoods. Now, because many blacks worked for the Big Three, when it came time for someone to operate a business in the neighborhood, blacks weren't prepared or ready to take on these businesses. However, Arabs and Chaldeans were willing to fill the gap that white businesses owners had left behind. They learned the businesses, brought family members over from their homelands, and taught them the businesses. Then they opened up a business. Eventually they owned most of the businesses in the black community.

[royce]

Well, today the need for blacks to become entrepreneurs is paramount. However, the most talented blacks tend to go into fields that aren't business related or go into the corporate world. That leaves those with the least education to start businesses, but because of their lack of higher education, many black businesses fail. Who knew that auto, corporate, and government jobs would dry up and the immigrant from Lebanon, who worked 12 hours a day by himself in that little gas station in 1968 would control so many of the businesses in the neighborhoods of Detroit. That's a testament to his hard work and taking a risk and blacks' misfortune of not being in the position to have done the same. This is not an indictment on any particular group of people, just stating the facts.
BTW, sorry about the long blocks of words, but for some reason everytime I start a new paragraph, the final submitted draft puts everything together.

[dookie joe]

I think race is indeed a barrier to the city's recovery. We'll never have the best and brightest running our city because the politicians and voters by and large restrict their choices to only a small percentage of the talent pool.

What mayor would ever appoint a white police chief? Very few department heads are non-black. And now that Sheila Cockrel is gone, it'll probably be a long time before another white person sits on the City Council.

I know the city is 85 percent black, but across the country, African Americans only make up 12 percent of the total population.

As long as city officails and voters restrict themselves to a talent pool that ignores 88 percent of the population, we'll never get the best and brightest.

When Detroit leaders start appointing the best man or woman for the job, irrespective of their skin color, it'll make the chances of a recovery much better. I don't care if the head of the building department is Hispanic, Chinese, White, Black, Mexican or Pakistani, as long as he can get the job done.

In Detroit, people often look at skin color first. Getting the job done is a secondary consideration at best.

[English]

Royce, you're a cool poster, but I've got to use your posts to ask questions about the common "textus receptus" of Detroit business and race relations that just doesn't add up.

Another issue that white suburbanites don't seem to understand about the decline of Detroit is that in the '60s prior to the riot of '67, whites owned the majority of businesses. Once whites left under white flight, they took their businesses.

But there were quite a few black business owners in Detroit before the 1960s. My grandfather was one of them. What happened?

Since blacks did not own many of the businesses, storefronts became vacant, neighborhood residents, especially teenagers, didn't have jobs, crime increased.

What happened to the black owned businesses that there used to be? Or were my grandparents lying to me? Or were my own eyes that was served by the vestiges of a black business class as a youngster lying as well?

Why did teens in Detroit suddenly find it difficult to obtain employment? Did young black men in the 60s prior to the riots find it easy to work?

Also, because many blacks worked for the Big Three and jobs were being lost because of the oil shortage, competition, and jobs being shipped overseas, black neighborhoods declined.

Many whites worked for the Big Three as well. Did their neighborhoods decline?

Throw in crack cocaine and slumlords in the 1980s and you have more decline in the neighborhoods.

What contributed to the rise in the crack trade? Where did the slumlords come from? Where did they live?

Now, because many blacks worked for the Big Three, when it came time for someone to operate a business in the neighborhood, blacks weren't prepared or ready to take on these businesses.

Many whites worked for the Big Three as well. And if my great-grandfather, the son of slaves who never reached secondary education, could become one of the most successful black businessmen in a major Florida city prior to integration, then surely black people who worked for the Big Three could do so as well.

However, Arabs and Chaldeans were willing to fill the gap that white businesses owners had left behind.

Weren't there any black business owners who tried to purchase these places?

They learned the businesses, brought family members over from their homelands, and taught them the businesses. Then they opened up a business. Eventually they owned most of the businesses in the black community.

If only it were that simple.

[English]

More of the common metanarrative about what happened and why...

Well, today the need for blacks to become entrepreneurs is paramount. However, the most talented blacks tend to go into fields that aren't business related or go into the corporate world.

Why did this occur? Did it happen in a vacuum? Are "the most talented blacks" inherently allergic to entrepreneurship?

That leaves those with the least education to start businesses, but because of their lack of higher education, many black businesses fail.

Do most successful sole proprietors who are non-black have a higher education?

Who knew that auto, corporate, and government jobs would dry up and the immigrant from Lebanon, who worked 12 hours a day by himself in that little gas station in 1968 would control so many of the businesses in the neighborhoods of Detroit.

Ah, the Great American Immigrant Narrative. Would that we had all been so fortunate in this great meritocracy of ours.

That's a testament to his hard work and taking a risk and blacks' misfortune of not being in the position to have done the same.

Agreed on both counts.

This is not an indictment on any particular group of people, just stating the facts.

Or a Cliff's Notes version of them.

[English]

I think race is indeed a barrier to the city's recovery. We'll never have the best and brightest running our city because the politicians and voters by and large restrict their choices to only a small percentage of the talent pool.

Trust me, if a talented, charismatic nonblack politician who was born and raised in Detroit AND didn't have contempt for more than 80 percent of the population appeared, they would win. Black people don't just vote for black candidates, and even when they do, ask Ray Nagin and David Dinkins how that's worked out for them in other cities.

What mayor would ever appoint a white police chief?

A black mayor would appoint a white police chief whose sympathies and allegiances were with the majority of the people of Detroit.

Very few department heads are non-black.

Are there large numbers of nonblacks who actually want to work for the City?

And now that Sheila Cockrel is gone, it'll probably be a long time before another white person sits on the City Council.

Disagree. You're not clairvoyant, and neither am I. There is a new Charter Commission just beginning their work, and council by districts is coming.

I know the city is 85 percent black, but across the country, African Americans only make up 12 percent of the total population.

I know that the United States is 65% white, but across the world, white people make up only 15% of the total population.

Non sequitur? So was your original statement.

As long as city officails and voters restrict themselves to a talent pool that ignores 88 percent of the population, we'll never get the best and brightest.

88 percent of the population of the city of Detroit is nonblack? Wow, things have changed since I've been gone!

When Detroit leaders start appointing the best man or woman for the job, irrespective of their skin color, it'll make the chances of a recovery much better. I don't care if the head of the building department is Hispanic, Chinese, White, Black, Mexican or Pakistani, as long as he can get the job done.

Are there droves of "Hispanic, Chinese, White, Mexican or Pakistani" applying for these jobs in the city of Detroit?

In Detroit, people often look at skin color first. Getting the job done is a secondary consideration at best.

In life, people often look at skin color first. The content of a darker person's character is always suspect, and subject to being maligned at the slightest provocation no matter how good that person tries to be.

Welcome to our world, sweetie.

[English]

A half-empty city full of poor people just isn't going to look as good or function as well as a populated city full of middle-class people. I don't know about "blaming" the people who left, but in a world where they hadn't left, the city would be in better shape.

I want Detroit to be the best half-empty city full of poor people it can be. If it can do that, it won't stay poor and half-empty.

This is the best and most honest post in this entire thread thus far. A very 21st century response indeed... not concerned with assigning blame, but with a hope for rebuilding from the ashes. If more people felt like you do, I could lay down my sword and shield down by the riverside...

Thanks, Mwilbert.

[royce]

English, one thing that can't be refuted as fact is the fact that you ask a lot of questions. Look, Ferndaledamon asked a question about how Detroit got to be in the position that it is in today. Well, I tried to give him the Cliff's Notes version because it would take hours or perhaps days to explain all the reasons that Detroit is the way that it is. I had written more on this subject, but this damn thing has a time limit and when I take too long to write what I need to say this sucker wipes out my planned post. At any rate, I stand by my earlier statements. I believe them to be accurate. If you had asked me, "What are you basing your statements on? I then could explain them. However, I'm not going to. I think that you are a smart enough person who can figure out the things that I was saying. Well, at any rate, welcome back.

[sumas]

I know what you mean Royce. My best posts get eliminated because I get timed out. Wrote a long post on this thread and its gone.

For the sake of brevity, just do not believe race is a factor.

[sumas]

Just glad I live in a very diverse neighborhood. My area is alive and well. Just can't wait until we go back to area representation. Can think of three people I would encourage to run for council, one asian, one white, one african american.

[Hermod]

But there were quite a few black business owners in Detroit before the 1960s. My grandfather was one of them. What happened?

What happened to the black owned businesses that there used to be? Or were my grandparents lying to me? Or were my own eyes that was served by the vestiges of a black business class as a youngster lying as well?

This has been a nation wide phenomenon. Even during the depths of the segregation period in the deep south, blacks owned businesses and prospered. Other blacks became noted as very competent craftsmen [[joiners, cabinetmakers, painters, masons) and were hired and given work even by the most racist segregationists.

Somewhere in the late 60s when the civil rights movement shifted, mostly after Dr. King's assassination, there was a significant turn away from owning small business and craftsman style work among blacks. The small grocery stores, carryout restaurants, dry cleaners, and small clothing boutiques in the black community became increasingly owned by Asian and Middle Eastern immigrants.

If you go to Washington DC, another rmajority black city, and go down to the National Mall,there are a lot of sidewalk peddlers hawking sunglasses, souvenirs, and what-have-you. These are businesses that require very little capital. Most of the peddlers are not black and the ones who are black are primarily Jamaican, Somali, or Trinidadian.

[ja!mz]

In Detroit, people often look at skin color first. Getting the job done is a secondary consideration at best---


There it is short and sweet-- spot on dookie joe-you can compare us to other cities, analize it all you want...buts its our problem to own

[Hermod]

Just glad I live in a very diverse neighborhood. My area is alive and well. Just can't wait until we go back to area representation. Can think of three people I would encourage to run for council, one asian, one white, one african american.

Electing council members at-large was one of the great liberal and progressive reforms to eliminate ward politics.

Of course eugenics was also an idea that came from the liberal and progressive reformers.

[shovelhead]

To quote from a previous post:
In life, people often look at skin color first. The content of a darker person's character is always suspect, and subject to being maligned at the slightest provocation no matter how good that person tries to be

I beg to disagree. At least on negatives of dark skin, light skin is affected too.I lived in a different area of the U.S. for almost ten years and being a "gringo" I was looked upon with distrust. This was not my imagination, after I was "known" this was admitted to me. And some of these same people became my very good friends. Some could never get over the difference though. I treated them with respect, but at arm's length.

I was involved with a municipal government agency, fire and EMS as a volunteer and had accepted a position with the local P.D. as a sworn officer after living there for several years.
For family reasons I later turned down the LEO offer. But I was well known in the city and to a lesser degree in the county government.

On starting a small business. I too have looked into being my own boss. A book store/coffee shop in the exburb that we now live in. Reasons that I have decided not to are that retirement is looming in a very few short years. I would have to risk all [[remortgage our home, max out our debt), probably work seven days a week at least ten to twelve hours per day on site, Then add the burden governmental paperwork, compounded when I hire outside help, S/S taxes that I personally pay will double, worker's compensaton insurance, unemployment insurance, etc. Not to mention that I would have to lease a building, then becoming hostage to the owner if and when the business starts to generate profits. Or buying a building again adding to the debt load and potentional risks to our retirement. Add to the mix, competing with the big box stores, inventory value, security [[robbery, shoplifting), is it worth it to us? And with a medical issue that could affect me at any time do I want to burden my spouse with having to deal with a business if I am unable to do so?

I'm no slacker either, I work at my main job 48-55 house per week, and my seasonal job is starting up again in a couple of weeks, that adds two more days a week , another fifteen hours to the total.

Also, to Royce, an excellent post you made.Well thought out. Like you pointed out, not just one thing led to the decline.

[Zacha341]

I am not the fastest typist, so as I go along with a long reply, I cut and paste most of it into "text edit" or "note pad" depending on if I am on a mac or pc, then at least I don't loose everything if I time out.....

I know what you mean Royce. My best posts get eliminated because I get timed out. Wrote a long post on this thread and its gone.

For the sake of brevity, just do not believe race is a factor.

[dookie joe]

Well, English, I'll just ask a simple question: do you honestly think it would go over well if the mayor appointed a white police chief? Would there be an outcry if a white person were to run the school system?

If you say "no" to either of those answers, you're simply not being truthful. People in Detroit complain about "outsiders" all the time. We all know what they mean -- just like we all know what Reagan meant when he talked about welfare queens. Both are thinly-veiled references to race.

And, by the way, why is my pointing out the racial population of the US a "non sequitur"? You bring up the world's population, but the available talent pool to run city departments isn't likely to come from the continent of Africa or Asia. Common sense tells me American cities probably wouldn't be looking to Zimbabwe or Calcutta for someone to head the fire department.

However, there probably is good talent we could import from places like Florida, Kansas, or wherever. That sort of thing -- bringing in someone from another part of the country to run a municiapal department -- happens all the time.