Detroit - Toledo train service

**467riverfix** · February-20-10, 04:08 PM

Lots of talk of course about Amtrak's Detroit-Chicago route incl new money to upgrade stations. But why hasn't anyone talked about an Amtrak link between Detroit and Toledo? Boggles the mind. Toledo, believe it or not, has the busiest passenger rail station in Ohio. It is smack dab on the main Chicago-New York/Boston route [[ie. the Lakeshore Limited, as featured in North by Northwest) and the Capitol Ltd. to DC. Both services are extremely cheap. Why does Amtrak/rail authorities keep this very short link dormant and not open more Midwest rail possibilities?

**mtburb** · February-20-10, 04:46 PM

My plan for that link is to have a line similar to the Surfliner in California called the Great Lakes Shoreliner. It will have about 35 trains daily, plus 4 more to Port Huron, 2 in each direction. It will use the MP36 engines and the passenger cars are similar to the Surfliner cars.

**ghettopalmetto** · February-20-10, 05:48 PM

Frequent Detroit-to-Toledo service has been proposed as part of the Ohio Hub Plan. This segment would be the second phase of the Ohio system, that is, if the penny wise and pound foolish Ohio GOP doesn't scuttle the $400 million that Ohio just received to implement the Cleveland-to-Columbus service. The Second Phase of the plan calls for implementing service from Detroit to Cleveland, via Toledo.

A final route [[either via Metro Airport or via the I-75 corridor) has yet to be determined [[I'd think this would depend on MDOT getting its act together), but plans call for an eventual 10 round-trips daily between Detroit and Toledo.

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions...ioHubMaps.aspx

**Hermod** · February-20-10, 09:38 PM

At one time, the AMTRAK New York-Chicago trains had a Toledo-Detroit connection. This got downgraded to a bus connection.

**FlyingJ** · February-20-10, 10:20 PM

Yeah Hermod i rode that connector a few times. We used the Detroit, Toledo & Shore Line...it's a nice run

**Rocko** · February-22-10, 11:49 PM

Yes, Toledo's beautiful art moderne Central Union Station is the busiest Amtrak station in Ohio, in part due to the guarenteed Amtrak Thruway bus connection to Michigan [[Detroit, Dearborn, Ann Arbor, East Lansing). Passenger usage at Toledo actually increased 8% to over 54,000 passengers in FY2009. Detroit-Cleveland was of course the route of the NYC Mercury back in the day, with Toledo being an important mid way stop on that route.

In order for a train to make sense between Toledo and Michigan, it would have to be southbound to Toledo in the late evening, to make a reasonable connection to the EB long distance routes [[Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited) and then northbound in the morning to bring passengers from the westbound trains up into Michigan. This could be accomplished by having eastbound train 354 turn south toward Toledo in the evening, and westbound train 353, on an earlier schedule, return northward.

The old Amtrak Lake Cities was the train that ran between Detroit and Toledo via the NYC/Conrail Detroit Line. The train had no intermediate stops and was not coordinated to work well with the long distance trains at Toledo, I don't think.

**ghettopalmetto** · February-23-10, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by Rocko

In order for a train to make sense between Toledo and Michigan, it would have to be southbound to Toledo in the late evening, to make a reasonable connection to the EB long distance routes [[Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited) and then northbound in the morning to bring passengers from the westbound trains up into Michigan. This could be accomplished by having eastbound train 354 turn south toward Toledo in the evening, and westbound train 353, on an earlier schedule, return northward.

That's the plan. In the long-term, one could also make a connection at Toledo to Fort Wayne or Columbus and thus, Cincinnati, continue to Pittsburgh, or connect in Cleveland to Buffalo and [[one could hope) Toronto.

**Hermod** · February-23-10, 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

That's the plan. In the long-term, one could also make a connection at Toledo to Fort Wayne or Columbus and thus, Cincinnati, continue to Pittsburgh, or connect in Cleveland to Buffalo and [[one could hope) Toronto.

Just prior to AMTRAK, the B&O ran two trains a day Detroit-Cincinnati.

**MrNittany** · February-23-10, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

That's the plan. In the long-term, one could also make a connection at Toledo to Fort Wayne or Columbus and thus, Cincinnati, continue to Pittsburgh, or connect in Cleveland to Buffalo and [[one could hope) Toronto.

Just curious, since you seem up-to-knowledge on the Ohio Hub Plan [[and also because I'm an ex-pat Detroiter in Southwest Ohio).

Is a Toledo-south to Dayton and Cincinnati connection in the longer-term plans? Or is it just Toledo-south to Columbus [[and connecting from there to Cinci)?

The general public sentiment here in Cinci is actually AGAINST this plan, which makes no sense to me, but we're not overly progressive here.

**ghettopalmetto** · February-23-10, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by MrNittany

Just curious, since you seem up-to-knowledge on the Ohio Hub Plan [[and also because I'm an ex-pat Detroiter in Southwest Ohio).

Is a Toledo-south to Dayton and Cincinnati connection in the longer-term plans? Or is it just Toledo-south to Columbus [[and connecting from there to Cinci)?

The general public sentiment here in Cinci is actually AGAINST this plan, which makes no sense to me, but we're not overly progressive here.

From what the Ohio Hub plan shows, travel from Toledo to Cincinnati [[or Dayton) would require a connection in Columbus.

I'm aware that Cincinnati has had some sentiment against the plan, in particular because the chosen station location isn't the most ideal. I believe there are people working on that problem. Then again, Cincinnati does seem to have an ongoing battle against anything that reeks of modernity.

**Detroitnerd** · February-23-10, 11:38 AM

When I lived in New York I used to take the Lakeshore Limited quite a bit. I was always kinda irked that I'd have to take a bus up to Detroit, so I finally just would ask some friends to pick me up in Toledo. And, metro Detroiters that they are, they'd do it. [["Just a short trip.")

I remember back in 1988, I went down to Columbia, S.C. from Detroit. They put us on a train to Chicago [[???) and then had us transfer down to Columbia. Sometimes Amtrak makes you wonder if they're just screwing with you to make you want to fly instead.

**izzyindetroit** · February-23-10, 11:45 AM

Was there a Detroit to Windsor service or to other Canadian cities?? I have heard unconfirmed stories of a decommissioned train tunnel under the river.

Anyone know the truth?

Bearinabox · February-23-10, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by izzyindetroit

Was there a Detroit to Windsor service or to other Canadian cities?? I have heard unconfirmed stories of a decommissioned train tunnel under the river.

Anyone know the truth?

The tunnel is definitely real. Don't know if it was ever used for passenger service, though.

**Detroitnerd** · February-23-10, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

The tunnel is definitely real. Don't know if it was ever used for passenger service, though.

The U.S. portals are a block south of Porter and Vermont. I believe it was used for passenger trains.

**Detroitnerd** · February-23-10, 12:04 PM

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=r1m...etroit%2C%20MI

**professorscott** · February-23-10, 12:04 PM

There is a functioning rail tunnel between Detroit and Windsor, but I don't know whether that was ever used for passenger rail service. Of course it is possible to make a transit bus connection between the Detroit Amtrak and Windsor Via Rail stations.

There is a rail tunnel also between Port Huron and Sarnia which was used for passenger service until the early 2000s, but is now used only for freight.

There is still rail travel today between Toronto and New York, crossing in the Buffalo-Niagara region, so international rail service still exists on the continent, just not much of it.

**Detroitnerd** · February-23-10, 12:11 PM

Here's a wiki link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michiga...Railwa~~~unnel

Bearinabox · February-23-10, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Here's a wiki link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Central_Railwa~~~unnel

I can't believe that phrase is still censored. Super_d's been gone how long, now?

**iheartthed** · February-23-10, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by professorscott

There is still rail travel today between Toronto and New York, crossing in the Buffalo-Niagara region, so international rail service still exists on the continent, just not much of it.

Didn't the train service between Detroit and NYC used to go through Ontario?

**Detroitnerd** · February-23-10, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Didn't the train service between Detroit and NYC used to go through Ontario?

According to this map, yes.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...918%29.svg.png

**izzyindetroit** · February-23-10, 12:47 PM

Interesting, is the tunnel under heavy surveillance?

I am tempted to add rail wheels to my car and drive down it.

**Ocean2026** · February-23-10, 12:53 PM

Detroit and Toledo have both been losing population and business with no change in that demographic in sight. If this idea wasn't thought of and utilized in the past why would it work now?

**Detroitnerd** · February-23-10, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by izzyindetroit

Interesting, is the tunnel under heavy surveillance?

I am tempted to add rail wheels to my car and drive down it.

It's under surveillance. I went down there once and took a photo of the portals, but I was stopped by a security car. [[Not before I snapped a beauty, though!)

Of course, lots of stories about that tunnel over the years. My favorite was about the kids from Windsor in the 1970s who'd hop on a Detroit-bound train, lope up to Porter, then walk up to Tiger Stadium in time to catch the game, then hop on a Windsor-bound train to go home. Must have been fun times before "everything changed."

**Ronjm23** · February-23-10, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Didn't the train service between Detroit and NYC used to go through Ontario?

Yes, I took the train that ran this rout from Utica, NY to Detroit and back several times in the 60's and 70's. It was a pretty good trip but because of the many stops it was about a 12 hour trip. You could drive it in about 9 hours. Service was limited. I once ate in the dining car and discovered that Jesse James was still alive but was now working for the railroad in the dining car. Wow, was it expensive!

**esp1986** · February-23-10, 03:17 PM

I will say, I have been working in Toledo for a while now, although I spend every weekend in Detroit... I still have family in Detroit, and if there were a viable train from Detroit to Toledo and back, I would certainly take it to be able to live in Detroit again full time... but since there is no such train, I am stuck here in Ohio four days a week...