Detroit Rail gets $25 million grant

**rondinjp** · February-17-10, 08:47 AM

http://www.detnews.com/article/20100217/METRO01/2170363/Detroit-light-rail-project-gets-push-from-$25M-federal-grant

Can someone clarify a question? I thought that the original plan was that the light rail would not be a dedicated line. However, in the picture from the article the light rail is definitely a dedicated line. Have the plan's been modified?

**Hermod** · February-17-10, 08:51 AM

Something wrong with your link.

**rb336** · February-17-10, 09:08 AM

try this:

http://tinyurl.com/ydwcuev

the woodward light rail line has, from inception, been a dedicated line. you might be confusing it with the AA-DTW-Detroit commuter rail project

**Cooper** · February-17-10, 09:24 AM

The photos don't match the article. The News pulled them from DTOGS -- the public plan for light rail on Woodward from downtown to Eight Mile. But the funding announced today is actually going toward M1 rail, the otherwise privately-funded 3.1 mile stretch from downtown to New Center, which, if I'm not mistaken, will be curbside, not in the middle of the road.

**rondinjp** · February-17-10, 09:32 AM

No, I remember from the discussion last year [[and the accompanying article when they released the early photo renderings) that the M1 rail was not going to be a dedicated line.

I remember the discussion focusing on how the problem would be that the M1 rail would get stuck in traffic and not be that effective.

**iheartthed** · February-17-10, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Cooper

The photos don't match the article. The News pulled them from DTOGS -- the public plan for light rail on Woodward from downtown to Eight Mile. But the funding announced today is actually going toward M1 rail, the otherwise privately-funded 3.1 mile stretch from downtown to New Center, which, if I'm not mistaken, will be curbside, not in the middle of the road.

The projects haven't officially merged yet? I thought this grant award was contingent upon them merging?

**rb336** · February-17-10, 11:06 AM

The DTOGS plan is now M-1 phase 2

Don't know how discussion of a woodward light rail could EVER have been about non-dedicated lines, as there are no lines of any kind running up woodward

**Gsgeorge** · February-17-10, 11:32 AM

So I still have some trouble finding the official M1-Rail plans on the internet. I find plenty about the now-changed DTOGS plan [[this has about five stops between Jefferson and New Center, while the new plan speaks of 11-13). Can someone direct me to the M1 plans, whether they are preliminary or not? I am curious as to where the planners envision the stations. I think the rail would be vastly more successful if there are more frequent stops, especially between Grand Blvd and Jefferson, than the DTOGS plan. DTOGS had the trains stopping at Grand Circus, MLK, Warren, Piquette, and Grand Blvd. That would leave out plenty of small "micro-districts" that would benefit greatly from a transit stop [[For instance Peterboro-Charlotte, Majestic district, Sugar Hill etc). Can anyone help here?

**Cooper** · February-17-10, 11:52 AM

Here's a PDF of the press release on the federal TIGER grants: http://trunc.it/5njqy. Here's what it says about M1 Rail:

Name: M-1/Woodward Avenue Light Rail Project
Location: Detroit, MI
Sponsor: Michigan Department of Transportation
Total Cost: $143,000,000
TIGER Funding: $25,000,000

Highlights:
- Leverages significant co-investmentâ€“almost half of the projectâ€™s costsâ€“from local and private sources, including station sponsorship, a development authority and a non-profit foundation
- Supports economic activity in Detroit, which is an extremely economically distressed area with one of the highest unemployment rates in the country
- Enhances mobility by intersecting the regional bus system and city bus routes
- Improves accessibility for disadvantaged populations in the largest city in the United States not currently served by significant rail transit

Project Description:
The project will construct a light rail system connecting Downtown Detroit to the New Center district along the region's main artery on Woodward Avenue. The project is 3.4 miles long with 12 station stops. The light rail system will run on both sides of the street in the second lane from the curb and will be co-mingled with vehicular traffic. TIGER funds will be used for road rehabilitation, a streetscape enhancement project, and the purchase of light rail cars.

Project Benefits:
The project will have significant short-term benefits for Detroitâ€™s beleaguered economy, including job creation and economic activity. The city also expects the project to provide for significant long-term economic growth in the corridor, while improving mobility on a congested portion of Woodward Avenue, which carries 27,000 vehicles per day, on average. The project is also expected to enhance mobility options in this corridor, and attract investment to Downtown Detroit and the New Center area.

**dtowncitylover** · February-17-10, 01:08 PM

I don't like how the light rail will co-mingling with traffic. Isn't this usually for streetcars? At least there's a distinction being made between light rail and the streetcar, as there's money going to a Downtown Dallas Streetcar project.

**exmotowner** · February-17-10, 01:45 PM

If there was light rail, dedicated or not dedicated that was public transportation, I wouldnt care if it was street cars, or light rail or commuter rail or a damn horse an buggy as long as I didnt have to drive would be fine with me. LOL Just get the rails quit fussing about particulars. :-)

**Ray1936** · February-17-10, 01:48 PM

I'll believe it when I see it.

**Gsgeorge** · February-17-10, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

I don't like how the light rail will co-mingling with traffic. Isn't this usually for streetcars? At least there's a distinction being made between light rail and the streetcar, as there's money going to a Downtown Dallas Streetcar project.

I think the idea is that the line will utilize light rail cars for the entire route, but south of Grand Boulevard the system will function more like a street car, with more frequent stops along the curb, while north of Grand Boulevard it will take the form of rapid transit, with stops every 1/2 mile or mile and stations in the center lane.

**casscorridor** · February-17-10, 02:56 PM

Ever since the private backer's hijacked this plan, I have started feeling worse and worse about the prospects of this project being successful.

Take for instance how it says the plan started with private funders than evolved into a private public partnership. They omit mentioning DTOGS which as been going on for much longer, yet put a picture of it, a picture of light-rail pulling up to the Warren southbound station in the middle of the street. Maybe it is because DTOGS cared to put time into making detailed pictures and diagrams of the stations. We really don't know what the first phase will even look like. The private investors have a fetish with secrecy and control. And their bud John Hertel has a vendeta against DDOT's plan. Plus, an incredible amount of support came from the state government for the private plan, even though DTOGS was going for years before, so it makes sense what is happening-- whatever the investors dictate.

I am very worried that when people drive into the city, they see that they can go much faster than the curbside streetcar, which WILL get stuck in traffic, because it is nothing more than a glorified bus, and think this is what the potential of transit is. The densest corridor in the state is served by a glorified bus. I know many have called this People Mover 2.0 but seriously a second people mover would be far superior to this joke. This can NOT be called mass transit. The only way we can call it mass is if there is a dedicated right of way [[aka lane), with traffic signal priority. And that is the minimum. Light-rail is barely mass transit even with these things.

Kiss goodbye any thoughts real mass transit, at least on the Woodward corridor between New Center and Jefferson.

**ASR89** · February-17-10, 03:21 PM

I agree completely, Cass.

**Gsgeorge** · February-17-10, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

Kiss goodbye any thoughts real mass transit, at least on the Woodward corridor between New Center and Jefferson.

Originally Posted by ljbad89

I agree completely, Cass.

Typical Detroit attitude. Talk about shitting on some of the best news to hit the city in a long time. The government literally just gave the project $25 million TODAY and you're already kissing it goodbye because they used the DTOGS drawings instead of the M-1 drawings. Give me a break! At least give this thing a few weeks to fester before writing it off completely. They now have $110 million of their $125 mil goal... Just another push and this thing could be real.

Not to mention, NO ONE knows how this plan will materialize. It could be more frequent stops in a dedicated lane with signal priority. It could be curbside with signal priority. It could resemble the DTOGs plan. Either way the thing will bring people up and down Woodward without a car. The point is it really doesn't matter if it goes much faster than a car -- it never will. The point is creating activity, density, development and movement in the Woodward corridor. The point is getting people --suburban visitors and urban residents alike-- from the DIA to Comerica Park without having to park downtown, and get them WALKING in between so they stop along the way to spend their money at stores and restaurants.

**jsmyers** · February-17-10, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

The only way we can call it mass is if there is a dedicated right of way [[aka lane), with traffic signal priority. And that is the minimum. Light-rail is barely mass transit even with these things.

Kiss goodbye any thoughts real mass transit, at least on the Woodward corridor between New Center and Jefferson.

I am virtually certain that the lane will be dedicated to bus and rail only, and that signal priority is part of the plan [[at least in the long term).

There will be more turning conflicts and conflicts with parking cars than if it was center running, but being on the curb doesn't preclude having a transit only lane. Enforcement will be the big question.

The advantage of having a curb lane is that transit buses and the rail vehicles can make the same stops, on the right of the vehicles.

**casscorridor** · February-17-10, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by Gsgeorge

Typical Detroit attitude. Talk about shitting on some of the best news to hit the city in a long time. The government literally just gave the project $25 million TODAY and you're already kissing it goodbye because they used the DTOGS drawings instead of the M-1 drawings. Give me a break! At least give this thing a few weeks to fester before writing it off completely. They now have $110 million of their $125 mil goal... Just another push and this thing could be real.

Not to mention, NO ONE knows how this plan will materialize. It could be more frequent stops in a dedicated lane with signal priority. It could be curbside with signal priority. It could resemble the DTOGs plan. Either way the thing will bring people up and down Woodward without a car. The point is it really doesn't matter if it goes much faster than a car -- it never will. The point is creating activity, density, development and movement in the Woodward corridor. The point is getting people --suburban visitors and urban residents alike-- from the DIA to Comerica Park without having to park downtown, and get them WALKING in between so they stop along the way to spend their money at stores and restaurants.

You can do this now. It is called the 53 Woodward and the 16 Dexter. They run fairly frequently 24/7. More frequent during the day and during peak hours, of course.

The particulars of what is built is very very import, for it will shape the future of transit in Detroit for decades to come.

If we are making only a modest improvement from what we already have, what will the future of transit look like? Real rapid transit, or a bus with tracks. The reason I am critical is because we are left in the dark months before construction is supposedly slated to start about the particulars of the plan. DTOGS had it very open and transparent. You say that we don't know what will happen, and I agree. So then it is especially important that we are more critical now.

I am not bashing the 25 million dollars. That is good. But shouldn't it be used for the best plan possible? The article does say "co-mingle with traffic" while also saying that this is a "congested corridor"... which seems like a contradiction, how does this help congestion more than a bus can, unless it has its own right-of-way [[which the article mentions nothing of)? That is what I am asking. We need real mass transit. If a street car style light-rail is built, I am very worried it will stunt the growth of both development in the slated area, as well as future transit growth. This is the only chance we'll get to influence what is built, we have to tell our leaders that what we really want [[even though it is confusing as to who is in charge here, besides the shady investors).

**mikeg19** · February-17-10, 05:51 PM

I understand that this project is the starting point of mass transit for Detroit. But to be honest I'd rather see a more comprehensive plan than the 3 mile route plus the extension to the New Center area [[that has no funding). I get that this is mostly for citizens in the city without a car, and I definitely see it as a step in the right direction. But I really don't think this is going to make the impact that some people are predicting right away as opposed to when there is light rail running all over. I don't think it really will have much of an impact until there is light rail running up Woodward, Gratiot, Jefferson, Michigan Ave, etc., and not 3 miles. They all need to extend to AT LEAST 8 mile to really bring people into the city. But for all the red tape and political jockeying it's taken to get a 3 mile stretch started, it'll probably take 20 years before these other routes are a reality.

**Gsgeorge** · February-17-10, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

I understand that this project is the starting point of mass transit for Detroit. But to be honest I'd rather see a more comprehensive plan than the 3 mile route plus the extension to the New Center area [[that has no funding). I get that this is mostly for citizens in the city without a car, and I definitely see it as a step in the right direction. But I really don't think this is going to make the impact that some people are predicting right away as opposed to when there is light rail running all over. I don't think it really will have much of an impact until there is light rail running up Woodward, Gratiot, Jefferson, Michigan Ave, etc., and not 3 miles. They all need to extend to AT LEAST 8 mile to really bring people into the city. But for all the red tape and political jockeying it's taken to get a 3 mile stretch started, it'll probably take 20 years before these other routes are a reality.

You're right about this not being a comprehensive plan, but it can be the first part of it and a good example of what could develop if there were a comprehensive plan. For the whole system to be successful, it absolutely NEEDS to be connected to the suburbs. There is no way around it. The line that has the most potential for being connected to the burbs is actually Michigan Ave. Not only does Michigan Ave only travel through Detroit for a scant few miles, but it connects Dearborn with Detroit. Not to mention there are stretches of Michigan Ave in Detroit that have seen a resurgence due to the large Latino population.

But in terms of profile it is the Woodward Line. Most of the city's main cultural areas lie along Woodward. City leaders need a flagship project, a model for the rest of the system first before they can extend onto Gratiot, Michigan, and Jefferson, which will be important parts of the project in their own ways.

**dtowncitylover** · February-17-10, 06:22 PM

As Detroiters we are very skeptical of mass transit. So what we need is a little taste, aka Phase 1 Dwntwn-Midtown, then after we see it actually works, [[cause Chicago, NYC, LA, Portland, etc is not good enough for us) I think we will dive in for more, aka investing heavily the rest of the system.

neighbor · February-17-10, 06:31 PM

I don't know if this will be a good example of what could develop. I think this could be a flop because of the distance and the lack of need for a different way to get between these two areas.

Personally, I have never needed a slower way to get between Downtown and the New Center Area.
It seems like too short of a distance to matter. How many people actually travel this route?

I think for light rail to work the first line needs to run from Downtown to the border. 8 and Woodward, 8 and Gratiot, Jefferson and Alter, doesn't matter which.

People Mover II : This time it's a straight line.

**Gsgeorge** · February-17-10, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by neighbor

People Mover II : This time it's a straight line.

To address your first point, I would wager that quite a few people travel the New Center-Dowtown stretch and would probably do it a lot more if there was a rail line that you could just hop on.

As for People Mover II: the thing that makes this different from the People Mover is exactly what you say: it is a straight line. That's a big difference from a 1-mile loop through one small part of the city. This is a 3.4-mile line stretching northwest through several distinct neighborhoods, each one of them as big by area as the CBD. That seems like a huge difference to me, and the reason this line, if built, would be much more successful than the DPM.

**tallboy66** · February-17-10, 07:38 PM

It will help attract people from other cities with "real" mass transit 3 miles isn't that much but if you're getting a white collar job and live in Riverfront towers and work in the New Center area or heck even the Millender, how many cities have stops INSIDE buildings?

How about getting a nice diverse mix of people living in the city again, revive China Town, have a nice stretch of cafes, clothing stores, art galleries along Cass, Woodward, John R.

**casscorridor** · February-17-10, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by neighbor

I don't know if this will be a good example of what could develop. I think this could be a flop because of the distance and the lack of need for a different way to get between these two areas.

Personally, I have never needed a slower way to get between Downtown and the New Center Area.
It seems like too short of a distance to matter. How many people actually travel this route?

I think for light rail to work the first line needs to run from Downtown to the border. 8 and Woodward, 8 and Gratiot, Jefferson and Alter, doesn't matter which.

People Mover II : This time it's a straight line.

The funny thing is that if it was a people mover -- Automated Rapid Transit, I think it would be far superior to what will be built. It would be elevated and come incredibly frequently, like ever 3-5 minutes. The stations would be clean, safe and separated from traffic.

I still will be happy with any improvement to transit, but I think we need more people visioning bigger and better things. We dis the people mover when in fact the people mover is quite awesome. I love taking it. It makes it so easy to imagine what transit could be like --It feels like a big city-- but is very limited because it was never built into an expansion.

We defiantly need lines along Woodward, Jefferson and Gratiot [[I personally think Jefferson should come immediately after Woodward), as well as Michigan and Grand River. Then there are others that could use some kind of rail, but not before the ones I mentioned.