Republicans in Detroit [[photos)

[mpow]

Some nice black and white pictures of Republicans in Detroit: http://www.flickr.com/photos/seefood...7622999016816/

[Detroitnerd]

That was great. Michigan was really hurting, shedding thousands of jobs a week. And Reagan came to town. His message for Detroiters was always a good one, full of hope and inspiration: "Move to Texas." We're busy starving this region until we kill the labor movement. "Pack up and move down to Houston, get a job." If not for old man Reagan, who'd have thought of that! What a wonderful person. Let's name every single thing after him.

[Goose]

That was great. Michigan was really hurting, shedding thousands of jobs a week. And Reagan came to town. His message for Detroiters was always a good one, full of hope and inspiration: "Move to Texas." We're busy starving this region until we kill the labor movement. "Pack up and move down to Houston, get a job." If not for old man Reagan, who'd have thought of that! What a wonderful person. Let's name every single thing after him.

and thats exactly what is happening today, can't count on two hands the number of people I know who moved to Texas in the past 2 years or so from this area...

there's something about Texas, their leaders/government vs. what we have here that seems to be working well for them.....

[Detroitnerd]

and thats exactly what is happening today, can't count on two hands the number of people I know who moved to Texas in the past 2 years or so from this area...

there's something about Texas, their leaders/government vs. what we have here that seems to be working well for them.....

Simple. All you have to do is have oodles of government money coming in. Texas: The other white meat.

[Hermod]

Simple. All you have to do is have oodles of government money coming in. Texas: The other white meat.

If you count the money expended on military installations as money going "to Texas". Because of the weather there and the year around training that can be done, Texas has a lot of military installations.

[Detroitnerd]

Uncle Sam's military spending was a good way to reward states that were hostile to unions and to skew them even more right-wing than they were.

[kenp]

Was that Pat Boone giving a concert in Hart Plaza, ugh. Reminds me of the movie Airplane and the line, "I havent been this sick since that Anita Bryant concert"

[Hermod]

Uncle Sam's military spending was a good way to reward states that were hostile to unions and to skew them even more right-wing than they were.

Ummm, every military installation in Texas was established under one of two presidents, Woodrow Wilson and Franklin Roosevelt. Which one of them was the right wing guy? On second thought, Fort Bliss was established in the 19th century as an Indian fighting post. I would have to research which president was in office then.

Posts were established in virtually every state of the union in WWI and WWII. War experience showed that they had more effective training days a year on posts with warm climates. For that reason, posts were kept in the southern states and closed in the northern states.

Research before ranting.....

[Detroitnerd]

Ummm, every military installation in Texas was established under one of two presidents, Woodrow Wilson and Franklin Roosevelt. Which one of them was the right wing guy? On second thought, Fort Bliss was established in the 19th century as an Indian fighting post. I would have to research which president was in office then.

Posts were established in virtually every state of the union in WWI and WWII. War experience showed that they had more effective training days a year on posts with warm climates. For that reason, posts were kept in the southern states and closed in the northern states.

Research before ranting.....

Oh, simmer down. I'm talking about the post-World War II period.

As for your contention, um, riiiiggghhht. It was just a coinkydink that all the Detroit auto companies were fully unionized by 1941, and then suddenly Uncle Sam got so worried about that cold weather.

[Retroit]

It's amazing what can trigger a liberal into Full Bullshit Mode.

[Detroitnerd]

It's amazing what can trigger a liberal into Full Bullshit Mode.

Amazing how a small amount of truth can get somebody all hurt and huffy.

[DC48080]

It's amazing what can trigger a liberal into Full Bullshit Mode.

Not really amazing, Retroit, sadly typical.

[Detroitnerd]

You guys don't get it, but that's OK. Maybe you all can have a love-fest where you all get together and complain about taxes and unions and "liberals." You know, pat each other on the backs, hug each other. Maybe a moustachioed kiss here and there. A little butt-patting. You'll feel a lot better.

As for me, I'm in "independent," as in "none of the above." At least get that right before you start your head-shaking and tsk-tsking. If you think it's one party or another party, you're insane. It's the whole kit and kaboodle. Both parties laugh at you whiel they take your money and your votes. Their allegiance is to the elite, not to us puny mortals.

[Hermod]

Oh, simmer down. I'm talking about the post-World War II period.

As for your contention, um, riiiiggghhht. It was just a coinkydink that all the Detroit auto companies were fully unionized by 1941, and then suddenly Uncle Sam got so worried about that cold weather.

In 1940, the government built the Detroit Tank Arsenal out in Warren. To this day, that is the center of automotive research and development for the US Army. It employs quite a few civil service engineers at the high end of the civil service pay scale. Both the Abrams Tank and the Bradley Fighting Vehicle were developed there. Most of the M48 and the M60 series tanks were built on a GOCO basis by Chrysler [[union shop).

Camp Custer in Battle Creek [[my father did ROTC summer camp there in 1934) was not selected for retention due to climate [[in the Truman admin). Fort Brady in Rexford, MI was declared surplus in 1944 [[FDR).

Michigan did have a significant number of post-war gun and NIKE air defense installations and Selfridge AFB had interceptors until the beginning of the ballistic missile age made anti-bomber defenses obsolete. Detroit was considered to be a high priority target.

If you take a list of all of the posts, camps, and stations in the US Army during WWII, you can see that posts were closed in all of the northern states [[red and blue) and retained in the southern states [[mostly Democratic). This selection of which posts to close and which posts to retain was done during the Truman administration. The basis was strictly which posts gave the most effective training days. San Antonio, TX has always had a large number of air fields because it has the most available clear flying days.

[Detroitnerd]

In 1940, the government built the Detroit Tank Arsenal out in Warren. To this day, that is the center of automotive research and development for the US Army. It employs quite a few civil service engineers at the high end of the civil service pay scale. Both the Abrams Tank and the Bradley Fighting Vehicle were developed there. Most of the M48 and the M60 series tanks were built on a GOCO basis by Chrysler [[union shop).

So they built a factory there in 1940. How many tanks have they produced in the last, say, 50 years?

Camp Custer in Battle Creek [[my father did ROTC summer camp there in 1934) was not selected for retention due to climate [[in the Truman admin). Fort Brady in Rexford, MI was declared surplus in 1944 [[FDR).

Hermod, I am not talking about military installations. I am talking about the very profitable business of producing munitions, tanks, airplanes, bombs, mines, rockets, warheads and ships.

Michigan did have a significant number of post-war gun and NIKE air defense installations and Selfridge AFB had interceptors until the beginning of the ballistic missile age made anti-bomber defenses obsolete. Detroit was considered to be a high priority target.

That's interesting, but still has little bearing on what I'm talking about.

If you take a list of all of the posts, camps, and stations in the US Army during WWII, you can see that posts were closed in all of the northern states [[red and blue) and retained in the southern states [[mostly Democratic). This selection of which posts to close and which posts to retain was done during the Truman administration. The basis was strictly which posts gave the most effective training days. San Antonio, TX has always had a large number of air fields because it has the most available clear flying days.

You're reaching for a rationale here when it's right in front of you: Southern states, by and large, never have more than 10 percent of their work force organized. In the north, it's generally 15 percent to 20 percent [[Michigan is a 20 percenter) organized.

After Detroit's union labor helped win the war for the United States government, the U.S. turned right around and said, "Let's never let THAT happen again." They started a program of industrial dispersal [[the rationale for that was that too many factories too close together were too good a target for nuclear attack) and started sluicing money to military contractors in more conservative states.

Was the visibility a little better? Sure. In fact, forget everything I've pointed out, about the government, the military, labor trends and the historical record. You said it was visibility and flying days? I'm sure that was all there was too it. No need to dig any further.

[gnome]

Dnerd, Hermod schooled you. Best to not make yourself look less informed than you already do.

[Detroitnerd]

Dnerd, Hermod schooled you. Best to not make yourself look less informed than you already do.

Aww, don't get your little, lacy panties in a bunch over me! I think it's sweet you want to be a chirpy little cheerleader for the right-wingers. Perhaps we can get you some little pink panties!

[Hermod]

So they built a factory there in 1940. How many tanks have they produced in the last, say, 50 years?

The Detroit Tank Arsenal was producing all of the UA Army tanks from the mid-fifties to the late 70s. When the M1 Abrams tank was to go into production [[late 70s), the decision was made to re-open the tank plant in Lima, Ohio [[union) so that the Detroit plant could continue M60-sereis production.

Hermod, I am not talking about military installations. I am talking about the very profitable business of producing munitions, tanks, airplanes, bombs, mines, rockets, warheads and ships.

Most US Army wheel vehicle production over the last fifty years was done by Dodge, GMC, AM-General [[Toledo), or Oshkosh [[Wisconsin).

Recently, Stewart & Stevenson have made inroads into military truck contracts.

Michigan Army Missile Plant up on Van Dyke did a significant amount of missile production.

Munitions are produced by Army Munitions plants mostly located in the north or mid-south.

You're reaching for a rationale here when it's right in front of you: Southern states, by and large, never have more than 10 percent of their work force organized. In the north, it's generally 15 percent to 20 percent [[Michigan is a 20 percenter) organized.

After Detroit's union labor helped win the war for the United States government, the U.S. turned right around and said, "Let's never let THAT happen again." They started a program of industrial dispersal [[the rationale for that was that too many factories too close together were too good a target for nuclear attack) and started sluicing money to military contractors in more conservative states.

Was the visibility a little better? Sure. In fact, forget everything I've pointed out, about the government, the military, labor trends and the historical record. You said it was visibility and flying days? I'm sure that was all there was too it. No need to dig any further.

Exactly what defense industry was relocated out for union reasons? The Willow Run B-29 plant was a war emergency set up by Boeing. After the war, the Boeing plant in Washington state [[fully union) was enough for Boeing production so they closed Willow Run [[and a plant in Kansas).

During the post WWII automotive boom, the Big 3 only made military stuff as an afterthought. The profit was in cars and trucks for the domestic market.

AM General [[old Willys) in Toledo was the only automotive company actively seeking military contracts [[and boy did they put on political pressure to get them).

[Detroitnerd]

The Detroit Tank Arsenal was producing all of the UA Army tanks from the mid-fifties to the late 70s. When the M1 Abrams tank was to go into production [[late 70s), the decision was made to re-open the tank plant in Lima, Ohio [[union) so that the Detroit plant could continue M60-sereis production.

And, according to the 2005 BRAC, they're reducing their footprint there. But it is interesting they'll locate in small-town Lima and not metro Detroit, isn't it? The sort of place where workers can be bullied more easily unless they want to mop floors at the hospital?

Most US Army wheel vehicle production over the last fifty years was done by Dodge, GMC, AM-General [[Toledo), or Oshkosh [[Wisconsin).

Interesting. But I don't see any notation of where those plants are. Or how acrimonious their histories with unions are.

Recently, Stewart & Stevenson have made inroads into military truck contracts.

S&S is a bastion of union-friendly business? They have a long history of coercive interrogation and threats to employees who were regarded as "union adherents."

Michigan Army Missile Plant up on Van Dyke did a significant amount of missile production.

But no more?

Munitions are produced by Army Munitions plants mostly located in the north or mid-south.

Which is it?

Exactly what defense industry was relocated out for union reasons? The Willow Run B-29 plant was a war emergency set up by Boeing. After the war, the Boeing plant in Washington state [[fully union) was enough for Boeing production so they closed Willow Run [[and a plant in Kansas).

The Willow Run plant was set up by anti-union Henry Ford, not Boeing. But after the old man died, the son set up to work with the union in earnest. Boeing, however, is not exactly a union-friendly company. You have to peek through the NLRB files to realize it, but their relationship with labor has a long and acrimonious history.

During the post WWII automotive boom, the Big 3 only made military stuff as an afterthought. The profit was in cars and trucks for the domestic market.

Yes, they had to be told to stop making cars "for the duration." They were only too happy to return to more profitable production.

AM General [[old Willys) in Toledo was the only automotive company actively seeking military contracts [[and boy did they put on political pressure to get them).

I don't doubt it.

Hermod, I don't doubt that a more complicated picture emerges when you look into things. But I do believe that the people running this country look back on the victory of labor in Detroit and say, "Never again."

And what's the surprise in that? What is the surprise that business leaders don't like unions? What is the surprise that they'll disperse industry from a unionized place and spread it to nonunion places? What is the surprise that the culture of the military is an inherently right-wing culture? What is the surprise that locating military businesses in states tilts them rightward?

But, as always, Hermod, you are a gentleman. And I appreciate that you take the time and effort to be such a loyal adversary.

[Detroitnerd]

The Detroit Tank Arsenal was producing all of the UA Army tanks from the mid-fifties to the late 70s. When the M1 Abrams tank was to go into production [[late 70s), the decision was made to re-open the tank plant in Lima, Ohio [[union) so that the Detroit plant could continue M60-sereis production.

Actually, according to TACOM, Warren's tank plant has been idle for years, something I knew when I asked. But you're a little sneaky, Hermod, only mentioning that the Lima plant opened so Detroit could continue producing. What you don't note is that the tank plant was marked for closure in 1995, ceased production in 1996, and started transferring the plant to Warren in 1998. The deed was finally transferred in 2001. To the best of my knowledge, they may do some research up there, but no tanks rolling off the line.

[PlymouthRes]

Hermod is correct, and makes many good points in his assertion. D'nerd, no offense, but you need to learn both the historical and current history of the overall military and the various military installations in the Detroit area. Their contributions to the war effort from the beginning [[1851-1972) solidified the Southeast Michigan region as one of the most prolific contributors to the war effort during those years.

The only company he fails to mention is BAE Systems, a new, large player in the military vehicle business in Michigan.

Tanks have been built at the Warren Tank plant for years [[since 1940). Apparently you missed that. It was always part of TARDAC [[M1A1, M113, M119 and many, many more) and is also now the home of Wheeled Vehicle Center of excellence that brings you today's MRAPS, SOCOMS, AUV's, etc.

Tons of work was given to domestic automakers to convert their facilities to the war machine. That, coupled with the fact that hundreds of small mom and pop companies supported the war effort, PLUS the substantial warehouse inventory kept at Fort Wayne alone was what coined the term "Arsenal of Democracy".

It is thought that upwards of 9 million men inducted, worked at and contributed to the war efforts as a direct result of Fort Wayne itself, not withstanding the various other facilities around this very northern region that contributed [[Forts Custer, Meigs, Grosse Isle Naval Base, Wurtsmith AFB, Kinchloe AFB, Camp Grayling, etc.).

I guess you still think the north was not a factor? Fort Wayne in and of itself proves your assertion wrong.

[Detroitnerd]

Hermod is correct, and makes many good points in his assertion. D'nerd, no offense, but you need to learn both the historical and current history of the overall military and the various military installations in the Detroit area. Their contributions to the war effort from the beginning [[1851-1972) solidified the Southeast Michigan region as one of the most prolific contributors to the war effort during those years.

Oh, yes. I'd love to learn more. I always do, and one of the best ways is to debate with the knowledge I do have. I am aware of the Detroit area's long military history, dating from the days of Fort Wayne on through to the present. My point isn't that the north hasn't been a factor in American military might. My point is that, after the war, after the unions won the right to organize and negotiate, the government and businesses have been less interested in locating here. And, despite some evidence to the contrary, we've seen lots of generous subsidies go to places that have low union membership. It's kind of a no-brainer.

Tanks have been built at the Warren Tank plant for years [[since 1940). Apparently you missed that. It was always part of TARDAC [[M1A1, M113, M119 and many, many more) and is also now the home of Wheeled Vehicle Center of excellence that brings you today's MRAPS, SOCOMS, AUV's, etc.

Tanks have not been built at the Warren Tank plant for years. Apparently you missed that.

Tons of work was given to domestic automakers to convert their facilities to the war machine. That, coupled with the fact that hundreds of small mom and pop companies supported the war effort, PLUS the substantial warehouse inventory kept at Fort Wayne alone was what coined the term "Arsenal of Democracy".

Well, where else was the United States going to build its war machines? Of course they had to build them here. My point is that after the war they instituted a program of industrial dispersal. It made the kind of one-city arsenal Detroit was impossible. Are you aware of that policy?

It is thought that upwards of 9 million men inducted, worked at and contributed to the war efforts as a direct result of Fort Wayne itself, not withstanding the various other facilities around this very northern region that contributed [[Forts Custer, Meigs, Grosse Isle Naval Base, Wurtsmith AFB, Kinchloe AFB, Camp Grayling, etc.).

We're still talking about World War II here.

I guess you still think the north was not a factor? Fort Wayne in and of itself proves your assertion wrong.

Um, as I said, that wasn't my point. No offense, but it almost seems as though you don't understand what I'm talking about.

[mwilbert]

A lot of northern air bases were closed when DOD decided that over-the-pole strategic bombers weren't very important. There were a lot of installations in Michigan [[even a radar station in Calumet) besides the large ones like Sawyer, Wurtsmith, Kinchloe, and Selfridge.

In any case, as Hermod previously said, those southern bases were mostly supported/expanded by southern Democrats, who tended to have safe seats and thus lot of seniority. When Mendel Rivers chaired the House Armed Services Committed, he basically buried South Carolina in military bases.

Of course, yesterday's southern Democrat is today's Republican, so I suppose in some sense you could blame them, if that is what you wanted to do. I think you could make a strong case that excessive military spending disadvantages the states that don't get much of that spending, but although the Republicans are marginally worse, neither party is really very disciplined when it comes to military spending, or even when it comes to sensible allocation of whatever level of spending they decide upon.

[Detroitnerd]

A lot of northern air bases were closed when DOD decided that over-the-pole strategic bombers weren't very important. There were a lot of installations in Michigan [[even a radar station in Calumet) besides the large ones like Sawyer, Wurtsmith, Kinchloe, and Selfridge.

Interesting. Thanks for adding to the conversation. That must have been around the advent of the ICBM.

In any case, as Hermod previously said, those southern bases were mostly supported/expanded by southern Democrats, who tended to have safe seats and thus lot of seniority. When Mendel Rivers chaired the House Armed Services Committed, he basically buried South Carolina in military bases.

Of course, yesterday's southern Democrat is today's Republican, so I suppose in some sense you could blame them, if that is what you wanted to do. I think you could make a strong case that excessive military spending disadvantages the states that don't get much of that spending, but although the Republicans are marginally worse, neither party is really very disciplined when it comes to military spending, or even when it comes to sensible allocation of whatever level of spending they decide upon.

I wonder how much of it was Dixiecrat/Dixieclan pork-barreling. Anyway, I don't necessarily think it's a Republican or Democratic thing as much as the whole establishment decided to slowly starve regions where unions were powerful and to subsidize places that were open-shop. Heck, there's a whole host of other things involved, though: air conditioning, the interstate program, the ascendancy of passenger flight all contributed to opening up the west to new development. There's a lot of noise there.

So how can I say that this is what happened? Well, you look at the perennial hostility to labor [[and that's both parties, by the way). And you compare that against the program to disperse industrial facilities. It puts the lie to the government's claim that no place would develop at the expense of another.

Or, as Reagan said, "Move to Texas."

[EMG]

After Detroit's union labor helped win the war for the United States government...

Ha! Ha! Ha! That was then. The union that "won the war" for our grandfathers was long gone by the time that Reagan came along in the '80s. Gone was the work ethic, here to stay was the gimme gimme gimme striker mentality that inflated wages to unsustainable levels and ultimately resulted in the current state of the auto industry. I know; I used to have to work with those lazy slackers on the office side and saw first hand how they spent all day at the coffee machine because they knew they couldn't be fired.

It's too bad Reagan wasn't able to handle the UAW the same way he handled PATCO. He would have been a hero and we might actually still have a world-class U.S. auto industry today.