Bob Bobb is at it again

**firstandten** · February-13-10, 02:46 AM

At first glance Mr. Bobb signing an executive order getting rid of social promotion sounds really good. Personally I hate social promotion, it does a disservice to our children. But after thinking some more, did Mr. Bobb think this thru. How is he going to execute this ? You need serious intervention put into place along with alternative schools. Is he thinking he might lose his court case against the school board, so he would strike first. It would seem that something like this would need to be phrased in stages I mean you have many thousands of students that need to be held back at least one grade.

The teachers will really have a bullseye on their back with this executive order. accountability is coming whether they like it or not.

http://detnews.com/article/20100213/...-costly-to-DPS

**JohnnyFreddy** · February-13-10, 03:47 AM

"Robert Bobb for MAYOR!!!"

**DetroitPlanner** · February-13-10, 07:33 AM

I dont c any thing rong with sochul promotion. I wauz sochul-lee promoted en an differint skew distrckt. I can do thing fin becuz I am smart as other kidz.

**DetroitTeacher** · February-13-10, 07:51 AM

I am all for not socially promoting kids. I see the result of social promotion at the high school level. Most of my students come to me [[as seniors) reading far below grade level, not able to form a cohesive paragraph, and unable to do simple math. If I am being held accountable for these kids mastering benchmarks for the 12th grade, I need to be able to rely on the fact that they have hit the benchmarks in previous grades.

I wish it were phased in, though, because I can't do much with a kid who is reading at 2nd grade level in the 12th grade. I only see the kids 5 hours a week [[if they have decent attendance) and I have an agenda that I have to cover for that level. DPS is giving tests in math and english for all grades. It is being used to evaluate the teacher and not so much the students. I am all for accountability and I do my job to the best of my ability with what I am given [[kids and resources) but I don't think I should be held accountable when the kid comes to me not being able to do what they should have learned in 4th grade.

DPS should give exit exams at each grade level. If a student doesn't pass the exam then they should not be promoted. This could work much like the Regent's Exams in some other states. I don't know what to do with kids who are aging out of a school. I know once the kid is 16, they can no longer attend middle school and MUST be passed on the the high school [[I've seen kids who are 16 and just entering high school). This might also be beneficial to attendance rates. Parents don't want their kids held back a grade and this might spark them into sending their kids to school and making sure homework is done. If they know that the kid will be passed because of social promotion, then there is no incentive to send the kid to school and make sure that kid is doing homework.

**DetroitFats** · February-13-10, 09:13 AM

I find the "Let's hold these teachers accountable" sentiment a bit troubling. Should I be held accountable for the progress of students who miss more than 40 school days per year? How about the students who arrive in late October because their parent or guardian "just got around" to registering them? The students who miss first hour almost every day because their bus was an hour late? Am I accountable for the fact that most of my ninth graders read at a second or third grade level? Who is accountable for the fact that classrooms are poorly maintained, with burned out lights, ancient desks and freezing temperatures?
I love my job and I work very hard trying to give my kids something to look forward to, some reason to want to come in every day. But more and more it seems that the debate about public education is being dominated by people who have never spent even one week teaching. People whose idea of fiscal responsibility is to lay off teachers, social workers and school psychologists. I should be held accountable to people who feel that a class size of 35 or more is acceptable?
The time for teacher accountability has certainly come. But if that means merely holding up poor test scores and declaring a teacher's performance unsatisfactory, I think we will be making a terrible mistake.

**firstandten** · February-13-10, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitFats

I find the "Let's hold these teachers accountable" sentiment a bit troubling. Should I be held accountable for the progress of students who miss more than 40 school days per year? How about the students who arrive in late October because their parent or guardian "just got around" to registering them? The students who miss first hour almost every day because their bus was an hour late? Am I accountable for the fact that most of my ninth graders read at a second or third grade level? Who is accountable for the fact that classrooms are poorly maintained, with burned out lights, ancient desks and freezing temperatures?
I love my job and I work very hard trying to give my kids something to look forward to, some reason to want to come in every day. But more and more it seems that the debate about public education is being dominated by people who have never spent even one week teaching. People whose idea of fiscal responsibility is to lay off teachers, social workers and school psychologists. I should be held accountable to people who feel that a class size of 35 or more is acceptable?
The time for teacher accountability has certainly come. But if that means merely holding up poor test scores and declaring a teacher's performance unsatisfactory, I think we will be making a terrible mistake.

I'm afraid DetroitFats thats what it is coming to. I think the accountablity issue is a key issue the unions failed to address over the years. The unions solution to accountablity is smaller class size, [[veiled meaning: hire more teachers) This latest round of contract negotiations is the first time I've seen the DFT talk seriously of any kind of teacher accountability. I've always had problems when you have a union thats almost a mirror image of the UAW then you come back and deflect criticism of your end product by saying " well we are talking about kids, not cars"
The arrogant attitude of the DFT and other teachers unions in the past helped to spur the charter schools as imperfect as they may be and now instead of being proactive with teacher accountability, you are going to have unfair demands put upon you.

**Neilr** · February-13-10, 10:29 AM

The idea of ending social promotion and retaining students who do not meet standardized benchmarks at each grade level has a great deal of face validity. That is, it sounds good, it looks good, and it would seem to solve [[one of) the problems faced by dedicated HS teachers such as DetroitTeacher.

The only problem with retention is that it doesn't work.

The majority of the research seems to show that any benefit to the student who is retained fades after 2 years. Also the retained student who is one year behind his cohort has a very high chance of becoming a dropout. A student who has been retained twice is almost certain to drop out. So perhaps that might solve the problem for HS teachers: the only students they would have left would be those on grade level. If the drop out rate is currently Â±50%, it would only increase by retaining more students more often.

The research also shows that social promotion doesn't work: just refer back to the first two paragraphs in DT's post #4 on this thread for anecdotal evidence of the effects of having HS students who have nowhere near grade level skills.

Is the situation hopeless? Not at at: but it is expensive. Focused early intervention seems to show the most promise. Targeted low and non-achieving students need, and respond to, intensive interventions at their age-appropriate grade level. Reading Recovery is one such program that has sound research and data backing its results. The RR teacher works with one child for one hour every day until the student tests out of the program, perhaps in 20 weeks. That means that there is a 1:6 teacher:student ratio. Few schools can afford the expense even with the use of [[dwindling) Title 1 funds.

Mr. Bobb seems to be using a Reading Recovery [[Lite) model with the corps of community volunteers he has gathered [[instead of paid, trained teachers). It may be the best chance our students will have.

Another approach that is coming up with good results is a program by The Harlem Children's Zone called Baby College. The program trains expectant parents and those with children up to 3 years old. It teaches the parents effective methods to prepare their children for school.

If you have an interest in the retention/social promotion issue as it relates to effective education, do a google search. There is much research on the topic. Several sites to get you started:

http://www.ericdigests.org/2001-3/policy.htm

http://www.ncrel.org/sdrs/areas/issu...risk/at800.htm

http://www.hcz.org/programs/early-childhood

**Frankg** · February-13-10, 10:40 AM

I commend Mr. Bobb for his leadership and willingness to shake up the status quo. I volunteered to be one of the pre-K reading tutors, and I'm enthused that someone, at least, in Detroit is showing some leadership.

Having said that, though, I am not sure how stopping the social promotion thing is going to work. It is one thing, for instance, to hold back someone in the 5th grade who reads at grade 5 level who cannot read at grade 6 level. But what about the person who is already in 5th grade but reads at grade 2 reading level? What to do with this student?

Yeah, let's quit blaming the teachers already. Really, teachers have no control over what life their students have outside of the classroom, and that plays a huge part in academic performance. And really, it isn't the teachers who came up with the social promotion policy -- that was administrators who made that decision.

**gnome** · February-13-10, 10:41 AM

good post neilr...

**English** · February-13-10, 10:51 AM

VERY good post, Neilr. This is exactly what I would have said, along with pointing to DT's reports from on the ground.

We haven't held children and teens back regularly for nearly two generations, and when it occurred, it was a different world. There are numerous practical problems that might occur if you've got a 17 or 18 year old sitting in the fifth or sixth grade. The only way this would be feasible would be to set up an extensive alternative schooling system, which will be extremely expensive.

**pffft** · February-13-10, 11:13 AM

The early intervention/reading corps ideas are great, I believe. What differentiates DPS from suburban districts that don't have this problem? Parental responsibility is in the mix, so what to do about that? Very difficult.

**MCP-001** · February-13-10, 12:19 PM

From my read on this, Mr. Bobb has little choice on the matter.

DPS cannot continually churn out students who do not have the basic skills needed to survive in life.

Yes, this will make some students feel awkward being held back due to their inability to read or write or count.

However, when those very same people at 18, then what?

Here's your diploma. Let us know if you can't read what it says?

What kind of educational system is that?

**English** · February-13-10, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by pffft

The early intervention/reading corps ideas are great, I believe. What differentiates DPS from suburban districts that don't have this problem? Parental responsibility is in the mix, so what to do about that? Very difficult.

And there it is. One of my biggest shocks was moving from DPS into a suburban school district with much higher test scores and discovering that my colleagues were just about the same.

**R8RBOB** · February-13-10, 11:26 PM

I applaud the decision of Mr. Bobb to get rid of social promotions. 47% literacy rate is embarrassing and a disgrace to the city of Detroit. I'm a born Detroiter and I would have never thought that people could not read. Growing up, I was naive. I thought that reading was like learning how to dress yourself. It was something you was suppose to have.

Now people are concerned how much is going to cost DPS. Who cares. Look how many illiterates living in the city incapable of getting and holding a job because they can't read or write is costing Detroit?

http://r8rbob.wordpress.com

**Claire** · February-14-10, 01:52 AM

We all know that our students are in trouble. But didn't teachers agree to give the district a 500.00 a month interest free loan. And what you are saying now is that at least 40 more schools will be closed. So, in the end, some teachers will still lose their jobs.

**Zacha341** · February-14-10, 06:13 AM

Yep. In the private sector [[sans unions) the surgery would have been swifter: Amputation - Good bye! Here's your pink slip and your box. Pack your stuff.

As it has turned out this is all starting to be the "death of a thousand cuts"! It is as though the entity of DPS is on one level being restored, yet on the other hand the air is slowly being let out of its tires...

Yet one advantage is that the "slow death" gives the remaining teachers and other the time to look for work elsewhere, like perhaps the incoming charter schools.

By doing so they would be ahead of the game one could argue.

Originally Posted by Claire

We all know that our students are in trouble. But didn't teachers agree to give the district a 500.00 a month interest free loan. And what you are saying now is that at least 40 more schools will be closed. So, in the end, some teachers will still lose their jobs.

**pffft** · February-14-10, 10:43 AM

Zacha, charter schools scored the same or below public schools. That's not the panacea.

Teachers are not the demons. You can put a genius with a master's degree in each classroom and it will only go so far. Social milieu and the home environment are critical factors. There have to be role models DPS students can look up to, because too often there's no one in the home with an education or a job.

**DetroitTeacher** · February-14-10, 10:57 AM

I agreed to loan DPS $10,000.00 interest free for 17 years [[until I retire). That's A LOT of money, in interest, I am losing. I still don't have any health insurance [[some snafu in the change-over...typical). Yet, I still go to work and make the best of what I have. I don't plan on looking elsewhere for a job. I like the kids and if I can make a difference in just one young person's life, it's all worth it. Call me crazy.

**sumas** · February-14-10, 11:06 AM

It does not seem that teachers should be entirely to blame for our children lacking a decent education. My husband and I both love to read and passed that on to our kids. Now all grown up, they bring over books they enjoy, to share.

I am a product of DPS. Went on to graduate college. Sad to say I only had three teachers that really inspired me. One in elementary, one in high school, one in college. Kids do need mentors if it is lacking in the home.

For many years I was a manager/personnel. One young man came in to apply. He could not spell his street that he lived on or the school he graduated from. Very sad!

My currant associate, teaches part time at a private collage. Remedial work. These kids are on scholarships. Can't read, can't write. What is this?

**Roq** · February-14-10, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by sumas

One young man came in to apply. He could not spell his street that he lived on or the school he graduated from. Very sad!

My currant associate...

*shakes head*

**pffft** · February-14-10, 12:57 PM

"Collage" is an artsy craftsy thing, "college" is what Sumas meant...Not getting down on you Sumas, but standards of literacy have just bottomed out...

**Zacha341** · February-14-10, 01:13 PM

Oh, let me clarify, I was not endorsing or even diminishing the charters. I was speaking pragmatically in terms of how it's easier to go from one kind of teaching "option" to another [[be that secondary or post-secondary). And for sure I don't blame teachers out and out. There is so much going on in these homes, or should I say NOT GOING ON... and as I stated the "death of thousand cuts" has to have and impact and added stress. Those dedicated to the kids must put this in their peripheral in order to continue on I am certain.

Originally Posted by pffft

Zacha, charter schools scored the same or below public schools. That's not the panacea.

Teachers are not the demons. You can put a genius with a master's degree in each classroom and it will only go so far. Social milieu and the home environment are critical factors. There have to be role models DPS students can look up to, because too often there's no one in the home with an education or a job.

**Zacha341** · February-14-10, 01:17 PM

Hah, I'm educated [[a product of DPS from back in the day a bit - smile) with college [[er' did I spell it right?), but my TYPING is not the greatest... LOL! I am certain I've made some gaffs and grammar stumbles

!

Originally Posted by pffft

"Collage" is an artsy craftsy thing, "college" is what Sumas meant...Not getting down on you Sumas, but standards of literacy have just bottomed out...

**Zacha341** · February-14-10, 01:20 PM

You're not crazy. The love and concern for the kids keep you going... that's how it is for post-secondary education too. Though not as much. They are adults so the connections are less and your less engaged personally, I understand.

Originally Posted by DetroitTeacher

I agreed to loan DPS $10,000.00 interest free for 17 years [[until I retire). That's A LOT of money, in interest, I am losing. I still don't have any health insurance [[some snafu in the change-over...typical). Yet, I still go to work and make the best of what I have. I don't plan on looking elsewhere for a job. I like the kids and if I can make a difference in just one young person's life, it's all worth it. Call me crazy.

**softailrider** · February-14-10, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by sumas

It does not seem that teachers should be entirely to blame for our children lacking a decent education. My husband and I both love to read and passed that on to our kids. Now all grown up, they bring over books they enjoy, to share.

I am a product of DPS. Went on to graduate college. Sad to say I only had three teachers that really inspired me. One in elementary, one in high school, one in college. Kids do need mentors if it is lacking in the home.

For many years I was a manager/personnel. One young man came in to apply. He could not spell his street that he lived on or the school he graduated from. Very sad!

My currant associate, teaches part time at a private collage. Remedial work. These kids are on scholarships. Can't read, can't write. What is this?

So, you're telling me they're [[ private colleges) giving out scholarships to kids who graduate with no reading or writing skills. I find that difficult to believe, I'd like to know which schools your associate is referring to.