perfect vision of the left is detroit?

**mcsdetroitfriend** · February-12-10, 01:04 AM

Well this is definitely going to piss off our DYes union members and democrats, but I figured this would be an interesting discussion from this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hhJ_...layer_embedded

"If there's one way to describe the aura of Detroit, it's that of hopelessness" -quote from this video

I definitely do not endorse anything in this video

**Russix** · February-12-10, 01:37 AM

I have seen this, so badly unsubstantiated that I doubt Fox News would even hold this with oven gloves and a gas mask on.

**p1acebo** · February-12-10, 02:28 AM

Right, I have seen this as well. He is just a narrow minded chach that really just wants to point the finger at one entity [[liberals) to blame what has happened to Detroit for his own right winged agenda without providing any answers or any information of real substance. Kind of a low blow but I really could careless what he says.

To put it shortly, he is an idiot.

**bobby wobby** · February-12-10, 10:45 AM

What they never say is that the foreign cars the all love are also Union made. Right wingers don't hate all Union workers just American union workers.

**gibran** · February-12-10, 10:55 AM

Funny it's those union guys and non union guys....that built the fortunes for those right ringers....

**bailey** · February-12-10, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by bobby wobby

What they never say is that the foreign cars the all love are also Union made. Right wingers don't hate all Union workers just American union workers.

Transplants have not been organized by the UAW. That is what the whole "card check" debate is about. However, assuming you're speaking about the foreign automakers having unions in their home country . It would seem that the "right wingers" position is; not all unions are bad, but the UAW is.

**Warrenite84** · February-12-10, 12:21 PM

IMHO there are many to blame for the way Detroit and the Big 3 are now. Here is a partial list:

Removal of streetcars limited movement of citizens and dammaged businesses by changing pedestrian traffic patterns;

Implementing an urban freeway system with minimal input by affected citizens and fair compensation for taken homes and businesses;

Nearly limitless suburban options for those with the means to bail out instead of dig their heels in to preserve their neighborhoods, [[not that they had much help from City Hall to help stem crime)

City Hall for not maintaining infrastructure, protecting its citizens, hard on violent crime, policing against vandalism, punishing poor property maintainance, and having instead a lack of fiduciary standards, lack of ethical standards, lack of business acumen, and nearsighted urban plans that decimated streetscapes and wiped away neighborhoods that were prosperous.

The Government for giving people fish instead of teaching them how to fish, unaccetpable poor trade policies supported by Republicans and signed into law by a Democrat President,[[NAFTA), [[which is one of the biggest causes from which our current financial mess stems), spiraling debt for things promised to past generations, [[another big cause), that must be wound down or reduced drastically to future generations,[[me), health care policies that promote 50 monopolistic markets with limited options for competition and high costs, [[another big cause), a lack of any ethical standards or sense of fair play with us, and last but not least, allowing Lobbyists to get in line in front of us the citizens so that their voice can be heard over us, [[they should be outlawed).

For the Big 3 and unions of which I am a member: Both lacking fair play and taking/giving up more that they need, company's crappy product designs, ignoring the customer, poor engineering quality, [[cheap, cheap, cheap), dealerships that lack customer focus at fair prices, and unions who have catered to and babysat driftwood and brats who are now getting broomed out from my observations. More need to go, not necessarily by seniority but those who play the system.

[[Pant, pant, pant! I'm off my soapbox now).

P.S.- This guy sees the trees but misses the forest.

**Warrenite84** · February-12-10, 12:28 PM

Whoops! Did I forget to mention Elmer Fudd himself who claimed Freedie Mac and Fannie Mae were perfectly fine and solvent before the meltdown, Barney Frank-D, along with his cohorts Chris Dodd-D, and a Republican whose name escapes me, sorry. [[Major losers who should be all doing the penguin shuffle in chains and a striped suit)!

**iheartthed** · February-12-10, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Warrenite84

IMHO there are many to blame for the way Detroit and the Big 3 are now. Here is a partial list:

Removal of streetcars limited movement of citizens and dammaged businesses by changing pedestrian traffic patterns;

Implementing an urban freeway system with minimal input by affected citizens and fair compensation for taken homes and businesses;

Nearly limitless suburban options for those with the means to bail out instead of dig their heels in to preserve their neighborhoods, [[not that they had much help from City Hall to help stem crime)

City Hall for not maintaining infrastructure, protecting its citizens, hard on violent crime, policing against vandalism, punishing poor property maintainance, and having instead a lack of fiduciary standards, lack of ethical standards, lack of business acumen, and nearsighted urban plans that decimated streetscapes and wiped away neighborhoods that were prosperous.

The Government for giving people fish instead of teaching them how to fish, unaccetpable poor trade policies supported by Republicans and signed into law by a Democrat President,[[NAFTA), [[which is one of the biggest causes from which our current financial mess stems), spiraling debt for things promised to past generations, [[another big cause), that must be wound down or reduced drastically to future generations,[[me), health care policies that promote 50 monopolistic markets with limited options for competition and high costs, [[another big cause), a lack of any ethical standards or sense of fair play with us, and last but not least, allowing Lobbyists to get in line in front of us the citizens so that their voice can be heard over us, [[they should be outlawed).

For the Big 3 and unions of which I am a member: Both lacking fair play and taking/giving up more that they need, company's crappy product designs, ignoring the customer, poor engineering quality, [[cheap, cheap, cheap), dealerships that lack customer focus at fair prices, and unions who have catered to and babysat driftwood and brats who are now getting broomed out from my observations. More need to go, not necessarily by seniority but those who play the system.

[[Pant, pant, pant! I'm off my soapbox now).

P.S.- This guy sees the trees but misses the forest.

Pretty good list. Especially the parts about what killed the city. Artificially changed traffic patterns absolutely influenced the city's decline. It's amazing how little lip service is given to it by local leadership... But then again, I myself didn't even realize the magnitude of it until I lived elsewhere.

**Detroitnerd** · February-12-10, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Pretty good list. Especially the parts about what killed the city. Artificially changed traffic patterns absolutely influenced the city's decline. It's amazing how little lip service is given to it by local leadership... But then again, I myself didn't even realize the magnitude of it until I lived elsewhere.

Yeah, I remember the first time I went to Chicago when I was 16. I was like, "What are all these people doing downtown at night? Is there some special event?"

**English** · February-12-10, 01:01 PM

Detroit was pretty much the perfect 20th century storm. What I wish Detroiters and the entire nation would wake up and realize is that the 20th century is over... and our current social, cultural, and political practices are completely unsustainable.

After all is said and done, Detroit will be all right. There are still a few people clinging to the ghost towns of the Mountain West, which saw their best days a century ago. That is definitely the worst case scenario for Detroit. But Red State policy has potential consequences that are just as dire, if not more so. Many cities in the Sun Belt grew very fast. For their sake, I hope that the folks who are predicting climate change and limited resources over the next 100 years are just whistling Dixie, and that they'll have their A/C and water in the deserts and the swamps until 2100 and beyond. [[It's a gamble that I'm unwilling to take.)

Detroit will not be the same place when I am an old woman. It won't look like RoboCop's vision, but it won't be the early 20th century nostalgic ideal, either. I'm so glad that I don't have those memories to mourn, for I'm looking forward to renewal.

**Hermod** · February-12-10, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Yeah, I remember the first time I went to Chicago when I was 16. I was like, "What are all these people doing downtown at night? Is there some special event?"

Back in the day when stores closed at 5 or 6 PM [[except Friday till 9) and were closed on Sundays, Detroit downtown was pretty active in the daytime with shoppers and office workers Downtown was pretty much a ghost town in the evenings and on Sundays. Detroit was a city of neighborhood bars which were almost like private clubs. Business travelers hated trips to Detroit because the nightlife was so non-existent. At its peak, Detroit didn't have the same downtown feel that NY or Chicago had/have.

**gnome** · February-12-10, 03:04 PM

Hermod points to a central truth about Detroit and its long held decentralized everything. Pick a thing, manufacturing, restaurants, housing, red-light ... we have been a city of very dispersed islands of X.

Think fine dining. There were a small clutch of places downtown like the London Chop House, but Joe Muers was out Gratiot, marios on Second, Lellis on Woodward, Playboy Club on jefferson, Topinkas on Grand ... the entire Chicago State Street vibe never was part of who we were.

Not that there weren't small windows in time when such districts[[like the 20 years of the Warehouse District, the 30 years of Paradise Valley, or even the theater district) thrived but those were exceptions to the reality of Detroit's historical aversion to clustering like enterprises together.

The ability to walk from one venue to another is almost unheard of in these parts. Even housing developments are just antithetical to the Detroit mindset going back long before freeways were even dreamed of. Think New Center. We have two downtowns. Neither really works, but we have two of them.

It wasn't Freeways that killed Detroit, the freeways were built as an answer to the problem caused by decentralized everything. We could dig up every freeway, plant them with organic crops but we'd still be spread out with islands of this and that.

**Detroitnerd** · February-12-10, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Back in the day when stores closed at 5 or 6 PM [[except Friday till 9) and were closed on Sundays, Detroit downtown was pretty active in the daytime with shoppers and office workers Downtown was pretty much a ghost town in the evenings and on Sundays. Detroit was a city of neighborhood bars which were almost like private clubs. Business travelers hated trips to Detroit because the nightlife was so non-existent. At its peak, Detroit didn't have the same downtown feel that NY or Chicago had/have.

My mom told me that when she first started working downtown in a law office in her early 20s, she was willing to walk several blocks in the snow in high heels just to be an adult and have a cocktail with lunch. I've seen photos of her at the time and bet she could have caused a car crash or three.

**Danny** · February-12-10, 03:19 PM

I already seen this video. Detroit from the guy's point of view is the way we create or destroy it.

**Detroitnerd** · February-12-10, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by gnome

Hermod points to a central truth about Detroit and its long held decentralized everything. Pick a thing, manufacturing, restaurants, housing, red-light ... we have been a city of very dispersed islands of X.

Think fine dining. There were a small clutch of places downtown like the London Chop House, but Joe Muers was out Gratiot, marios on Second, Lellis on Woodward, Playboy Club on jefferson, Topinkas on Grand ... the entire Chicago State Street vibe never was part of who we were.

Not that there weren't small windows in time when such districts[[like the 20 years of the Warehouse District, the 30 years of Paradise Valley, or even the theater district) thrived but those were exceptions to the reality of Detroit's historical aversion to clustering like enterprises together.

The ability to walk from one venue to another is almost unheard of in these parts. Even housing developments are just antithetical to the Detroit mindset going back long before freeways were even dreamed of. Think New Center. We have two downtowns. Neither really works, but we have two of them.

It wasn't Freeways that killed Detroit, the freeways were built as an answer to the problem caused by decentralized everything. We could dig up every freeway, plant them with organic crops but we'd still be spread out with islands of this and that.

When things are spread-out, one way to deal with the problem is to build lots of restricted-access, high-speed roads. But the problem is that they only exacerbate the sprawl, as people now can move over longer distances faster. The other solution is to locate things centrally, obviating the need for travel to procure the necessities and amenities of life.

I know, I know. People love their cars. Everybody wants to drive several miles when they need a postage stamp. Wheee!

**R8RBOB** · February-12-10, 05:57 PM

Can we be honest and say that Detroit's downfall is a result of Detroit having to compete against its own suburbs for businesses, for money, for residents.

**Det_ard** · February-12-10, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

When things are spread-out, one way to deal with the problem is to build lots of restricted-access, high-speed roads. But the problem is that they only exacerbate the sprawl, as people now can move over longer distances faster. The other solution is to locate things centrally, obviating the need for travel to procure the necessities and amenities of life.

I know, I know. People love their cars. Everybody wants to drive several miles when they need a postage stamp. Wheee!

People do love their cars. Ever see a teenage boy with a poster of a streetcar on his wall? Me neither.

Bearinabox · February-12-10, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by Det_ard

People do love their cars. Ever see a teenage boy with a poster of a streetcar on his wall? Me neither.

I don't think I ever literally had a poster on my wall [[probably because such things aren't easily come by), but I was fascinated by those things as a little kid. I took a trip to San Francisco to visit some family friends, and the first morning I was there we walked out their front door to stroll down to the beach, and one of those old PCC cars drove by. My head just about exploded. "Mom! Mom! What is that? Can we ride it? Can I have one?" A few minutes later, I saw the Pacific Ocean, tide pools, and hermit crabs, all for the first time in my life, but my mind wasn't on them.

I ended up buying a touristy souvenir model of a cable car with a music box inside at some point on that trip. I would have preferred a PCC, but I didn't see any of those for sale. I spent just about every free minute for the rest of the trip wearing grooves in our hosts' living room carpet playing streetcar, calling out stops I was making up as I went, picking up imaginary passengers, and proudly showing off my acquisition to anybody who would stand still long enough. I drove that thing around their apartment until one of the wheels fell off, had someone glue it back on for me, and fidgeted impatiently while the glue dried.

So, the point of this story? I guess there really isn't one. I just read your post and laughed, because all I could think was I was totally that kid.

**Hermod** · February-13-10, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

Can we be honest and say that Detroit's downfall is a result of Detroit having to compete against its own suburbs for businesses, for money, for residents.

Detroit has always done that. Beginning with horse drawn street cars, each advance in transport allowed people to live further from the core. Up until they hit 8-Mile, the city was able to annex and tax a suburb. Businesses also set up shop in the outer areas of the city.

When we lived out by Harper and Whittier, we only went downtown for something special like new winter coats. A trip downtown was an expedition with a purpose We never went downtown just "to shop" or "to walk around"..

**Hermod** · February-13-10, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

I don't think I ever literally had a poster on my wall [[probably because such things aren't easily come by), but I was fascinated by those things as a little kid. I took a trip to San Francisco to visit some family friends, and the first morning I was there we walked out their front door to stroll down to the beach, and one of those old PCC cars drove by. My head just about exploded. "Mom! Mom! What is that? Can we ride it? Can I have one?" A few minutes later, I saw the Pacific Ocean, tide pools, and hermit crabs, all for the first time in my life, but my mind wasn't on them.

I ended up buying a touristy souvenir model of a cable car with a music box inside at some point on that trip. I would have preferred a PCC, but I didn't see any of those for sale. I spent just about every free minute for the rest of the trip wearing grooves in our hosts' living room carpet playing streetcar, calling out stops I was making up as I went, picking up imaginary passengers, and proudly showing off my acquisition to anybody who would stand still long enough. I drove that thing around their apartment until one of the wheels fell off, had someone glue it back on for me, and fidgeted impatiently while the glue dried.

So, the point of this story? I guess there really isn't one. I just read your post and laughed, because all I could think was I was totally that kid.

I was born in 1939, so I was able to ride the PCC cars in Detroit [[mostly Gratiot, but sometimes Woodward). while there wasn't much difference in comfort between the streetcar and the bus, from the outside, the streetcar was much more impressive and you felt like you were really doing something when you rode the streetcar.

I have a whole shelf of streetcar and interurban books which i take out and read for the fourth or fifth time.

**maxx** · February-16-10, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by p1acebo

Right, I have seen this as well. He is just a narrow minded chach that really just wants to point the finger at one entity [[liberals) to blame what has happened to Detroit for his own right winged agenda without providing any answers or any information of real substance. Kind of a low blow but I really could careless what he says.

To put it shortly, he is an idiot.

Which is not to say that this argument won't be used by the right. Can anything be too crazy or stupid for them not to use?

**maxx** · February-16-10, 08:39 AM

After an extensive study of talk radio and television argument shows...Prof. Andrew Cline of Washington U. in St. Louis came up with a set of rules for modern American pundits:
1. Never be dull
2. Embrace willfully ignorant simplicity
3. The American public is stupid; treat them that way.
4. Always ignore facts and the public record when it is convenient to do so.
[from "Idiot America: How Stupidity Became a Virtue in the Land of the Free" by Charlie Pierce]

**Papasito** · February-17-10, 05:30 PM

Detroit declined the same reason Pittsburgh steel declined and so much of our nation declined.
We allowed cheaper products made with cheaper labor be brought in for free and sold in direct competition to domestics, and they ate us alive. Shame on us for allowing that to happen.

**maxx** · February-18-10, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by Papasito

Detroit declined the same reason Pittsburgh steel declined and so much of our nation declined.
We allowed cheaper products made with cheaper labor be brought in for free and sold in direct competition to domestics, and they ate us alive. Shame on us for allowing that to happen.

And after decrying cheap Japanese steel dumped on the U.S. market, we dump our corn on Mexico and put a lot of farmers there out of business. No wonder they head to el norte.