There is no god

**maxx** · February-18-10, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by mauser

You are mixing statistics for effect.

Belief in a deity does not automatically mean belief or participation in an organized religion.

But it does imply magical thinking and time spent trying to understand or implore the deity which could be better spent learning something about the natural sciences or even about other cultures or the histories of religions like xtianity.

**maxx** · February-18-10, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

I have no idea if there's a god or not. I don't think it really matters. Trying to persuade people one way or the other is a rather pointless endeavor, I think.

It hasn't been pointless for Doug Coe or Jerry Falwell or James Kennedy or James Dobson.

**maxx** · February-18-10, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by gibran

we tolerant a tooth ache until it is pulled...we accept each others beliefs with compassion. Why? because for those who believe and those who don't are still examples of individual accountability just to their own conscious if nothing else...it's when we surrender totally and do WRONG..that it becomes an entity into it's own... and thats been the desription of evil ...

I'm not sure that plays well in a court of law or in the psychoanalytic community. So you believe in possession by evil spirits? Do you think that all some serial killers need is a good old-fashioned exorcism?

**maxx** · February-18-10, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Pam

Well, because that's all Satan's fault.

So we should just exorcize rapists and murderers? If you believe in evil spirits, your mind is in the dark ages. This is the 21st century. Join us.
Pam's response is another fine example of "the potent narcotic of reassuring simplicity", so called by psychologist Paul Ginnetty in a 2003 Newsweek article and mentioned in "Idiot America" by Charles Pierce.

**Detroitej72** · February-18-10, 10:03 AM

Anyone else find it ironic that some atheists here who complain about people of faith being arrogant and smug are, well, acting arrogant and smug themselves?

What we see here is people in general can be condescending to anyone who fails to embrace their version of reality.

**Detroitej72** · February-18-10, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by maxx

Pam's response is another fine example of "the potent narcotic of reassuring simplicity", so called by psychologist Paul Ginnetty in a 2003 Newsweek article and mentioned in "Idiot America" by Charles Pierce.

Relax, she was making a joke.

**maxx** · February-18-10, 10:06 AM

oladub wrote: don't think there is much difference in believing that the world is a by-product of the Big Bang or that in the beginning, God created heaven and earth. Both are beliefs. One is based on a scientific understanding, one is based on a more emotional poetic understanding. Both are nebulous

maxx: If you are unable to see the difference between the big bang which has undergone massive examination and peer review and Genesis which is basically an article of belief by bronze age people, then you need to learn some critical thinking skills, skills that are usually woefully absent from true believers.

**maxx** · February-18-10, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitej72

Relax, she was making a joke.

I hope so. A lot of believers aren't when they say that.

**maxx** · February-18-10, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

I'm inclined to think that if the whole world were atheists then people would have come up with other reasons to kill each other. Most "religious" wars are really about things like wealth and influence and control over territory. Look at the Thirty Years' War--nominally a war between Catholics and Protestants, and the Catholic French wound up fighting alongside the Protestants because they were common enemies of the Catholic Austrians. In war, as in most other things, religion primarily serves as an excuse for people to keep doing what they would have done anyway.

But believing that your side is right because some god, the creator and source of all that is moral, is on your side, is a powerful motivator towards war. The U.S. military has done some strange and stupid things in Iraq and to its own people in the name of religion lately.

**rb336** · February-18-10, 10:35 AM

just an etymological note --
"Religion" comes from two roots meaning "to bind" or "to tie"

**Sstashmoo** · February-18-10, 10:40 AM

Quote: "The U.S. military has done some strange and stupid things in Iraq and to its own people in the name of religion lately."

Ignorance. If you think we are in Iraq and Afghanistan because of religion, you have no clue whatsoever. Judging by the rest of your nonsensical offerings here, that's pretty conclusive.

Care to address my statement oh enlightened one? This statement: "Some of you have opted to trust human nature, man's conscience and ethics to guide public policy and oversee your welfare, good luck with that""

My experience with man and his conscience, don't expect much.

How anyone can look around them and see the wonders this earth beholds and determine that it just happened this way is dumb x 10.

Animals born with knowledge to do things, explain that one. And it goes on and on. The folks that don't see it are the one's that don't know jackshit about science. A bit ironic.

**rb336** · February-18-10, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "The U.S. military has done some strange and stupid things in Iraq and to its own people in the name of religion lately."

Ignorance. If you think we are in Iraq and Afghanistan because of religion, you have no clue whatsoever. Judging by the rest of your nonsensical offerings here, that's pretty conclusive.

and yet deserving officers who don't join the religious fold in the military are far less likely to get promoted [[see Chalker v. Gates)

Care to address my statement oh enlightened one? This statement: "Some of you have opted to trust human nature, man's conscience and ethics to guide public policy and oversee your welfare, good luck with that"

My experience with man and his conscience, don't expect much.

in the end there is nothing else to trust. when you are "trusting" someone because of their stated religious convictions, you are trusting their interpretation. that has lead to...the crusades, the inquisition, the salem witch trials and on and on. good luck with that

How anyone can look around them and see the wonders this earth beholds and determine that it just happened this way is dumb x 10.

that comment is simply dumb x 20. anyone who thinks there is an intelligence behind it better explain things like why we have an immune system that likes to attack our joints, why an organ would be designed so that it expands when we get older it blocks our ability to urinate, why that designer would create us so that the path for air is so easily blocked by things that are supposed to go down the path for nourishment [[the number of children who die worldwide from asphixia caused by THAT brilliant design move outstrips the number of abortions by a fair margin, yet know one calls the idiot who designed our digestive and respiratory systems a child killer)

Animals born with knowledge to do things, explain that one. And it goes on and on. The folks that don't see it are the one's that don't know jackshit about science. A bit ironic.

simple. read The Evolution of Animal Intelligence by SJ Holmes

**jiminnm** · February-18-10, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitej72

Anyone else find it ironic that some atheists here who complain about people of faith being arrogant and smug are, well, acting arrogant and smug themselves?

What we see here is people in general can be condescending to anyone who fails to embrace their version of reality.

You are correct, and how could it be any other way? If you do not believe in anything greater than yourself, how could you not feel smug and arrogant?

**Sstashmoo** · February-18-10, 11:48 AM

Quote: "If you do not believe in anything greater than yourself, how could you not feel smug and arrogant?"

And such is the basis of Atheism.

**Sstashmoo** · February-18-10, 11:52 AM

Quote: "why we have an immune system that likes to attack our joints, why an organ would be designed so that it expands when we get older it blocks our ability to urinate, why that designer would create us so that the path for air is so easily blocked by things that are supposed to go down the path for nourishment [[the number of children who die worldwide from asphixia caused by THAT brilliant design move outstrips the number of abortions by a fair margin, yet know one calls the idiot who designed our digestive and respiratory systems a child killer)"

Are you some final authority on the human body? If you are there are a bunch of folks that would like to talk to you. If you don't understand something fully, you are in no position to criticize it.

**Sstashmoo** · February-18-10, 11:56 AM

Quote: "simple. read The Evolution of Animal Intelligence by SJ Holmes"

Another case of waving a book and exclaiming "I'm right because of this"

**rb336** · February-18-10, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Are you some final authority on the human body? If you are there are a bunch of folks that would like to talk to you. If you don't understand something fully, you are in no position to criticize it.

CLASSIC cop-out. If, say, a company designs a car so the breaks don't stop acceleration, is that stupid? or, since we don't understand the mechanical and electrical engineering behind it, or the programming, are we in no position to criticize?

besides, it doesn't take much understanding to see that if you seperate the airway from the food intake orifice, people and children will not choke to death because they hiccupped while eating something

**rb336** · February-18-10, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "simple. read The Evolution of Animal Intelligence by SJ Holmes"

Another case of waving a book and exclaiming "I'm right because of this"

no, a classic case of you saying "explain that one" and me providing one of the earliest sources that will do it.

i could have simply said that an animal born with the ability to do something that aids its survival will be much more likely to survive to adulthood and reproduce. that is a very general statement to explain a very broad and general request for an explanation. if you want more, come up with a behavior, show that it is in no way learned. I will point you to someone who has researched how that behavior came about. better yet, look it up yourself. its all there for the reading

**Sstashmoo** · February-18-10, 12:29 PM

Quote: "since we don't understand the mechanical and electrical engineering behind it, or the programming, are we in no position to criticize?"

You and I can criticize it, but without really knowing, we fall into that
"sidewalk superintendent" group. Where we are just really talking out of our backsides. I'm guilty of it as well. So this guy knows why humans and animals are born with certain pre-programmed knowledge?. I won't bother reading his theories that you obviously consider fact.

**Pam** · February-18-10, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by maxx

I hope so. A lot of believers aren't when they say that.

Yes, it was a joke. If you were paying attention, you would have seen that I identified myself as a non-believer earlier in the thread.

**maxx** · February-18-10, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "The U.S. military has done some strange and stupid things in Iraq and to its own people in the name of religion lately."

Ignorance. If you think we are in Iraq and Afghanistan because of religion, you have no clue whatsoever. Judging by the rest of your nonsensical offerings here, that's pretty conclusive.

Tell that to the soldiers that wrote Jesus beat Mohammed in Arabic on their tank in Iraq. And to the ones who tried to distribute Bibles there.

Care to address my statement oh enlightened one? This statement: "Some of you have opted to trust human nature, man's conscience and ethics to guide public policy and oversee your welfare, good luck with that""

The Congress starts each day praying for guidance from their god[[s). And where has it gotten us with this bunch of conservatives?

My experience with man and his conscience, don't expect much.

And what's your evidence for the instances when your god was in charge? The xtians thought he was during the crusades, but Suleman the Great had his own ideas.

How anyone can look around them and see the wonders this earth beholds and determine that it just happened this way is dumb x 10.

argument from incredulity. If everyone thought that way, we wouldn't have one-tenth the knowledge that we have about the natural world.

Animals born with knowledge to do things, explain that one. And it goes on and on. The folks that don't see it are the one's that don't know jackshit about science. A bit ironic.

The folks that don't see what? Your particular god in the natural world? Or the supernatural in the natural world? People used to see the wrath of some god in every ache and pain; now we take aspirin to flout that god's will. Quite ironic. We also take vaccines to flout whatever god was in charge of polio and all the childhood diseases. The more we know, the fewer miracles there are, the farther back in creation is the creator.

**maxx** · February-18-10, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by jiminnm

You are correct, and how could it be any other way? If you do not believe in anything greater than yourself, how could you not feel smug and arrogant?

I find a lot of smugness and arrogance among believers who have nothing but their faith and usually a very incomplete knowledge of the Bible. Who else but a fundamentalist would say with such assurance that someone is going to hell?

**Detroitej72** · February-18-10, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by maxx

Tell that to the soldiers that wrote Jesus beat Mohammed in Arabic on their tank in Iraq.

So what a few soldiers do reflects the military as a whole? Besides, you might rethink your views if your ass was in danger of being shot or blown up. Ever hear the saying, "there are no atheists in fox holes"?

Originally Posted by maxx

The Congress starts each day praying for guidance from their god[[s). And where has it gotten us with this bunch of conservatives?.

The election of President Obama, according to the right wing talking heads.

I say, to each his own. If people have a problem with that, screw them.

**rb336** · February-18-10, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "since we don't understand the mechanical and electrical engineering behind it, or the programming, are we in no position to criticize?"

You and I can criticize it, but without really knowing, we fall into that
"sidewalk superintendent" group. Where we are just really talking out of our backsides. I'm guilty of it as well. So this guy knows why humans and animals are born with certain pre-programmed knowledge?. I won't bother reading his theories that you obviously consider fact.

ah, do i have to, yet again, re-educate you on what theory means in scientific context? I'll take scientifically derived theory over baseless superstition any day