There is no god

**devman1983** · February-11-10, 09:37 PM

OK. The virus of religion has infected 5/6 people in the world. 5 out of 6 people believe in a deity of some sort.

The virus of faith has trickled down generation after generation. Some very smart men figured out how they could manipulate the masses by answering the big question of "Why?" and "What next?"

Then, after each new generation is born, the children are infected with religion. Parents teach their children about religion and god when they are too young to think for themselves. They are brainwashed.

The reason I'm writing this is because of my friend, Pat. All of my friends are smart enough to be atheists, but I guess Pat and I never had a religion conversation. I'll explain: We were talking about all the problems we used to have back in high school and how troubled we were. A little bit into the conversation and Pat says under his breath "Yeah, I guess that's why I'm being punished now."
I said, "In what way?"
He didn't want to tell me at first, but then he laid it on me. He said that god was punishing him now for all the bad things he did back then. I asked for more details. He said "That's why he got arrested after high school and why I have to work manual labor now."

Later he sends me a text saying "What about my grandma? She has cancer and she wasn't expected to survive, but now she is getting better. How can you explain such miracles?"

At the risk of futher damaging our friendship I laid off the religion debate. But it has been eating me up inside knowing that one of my friends believe in magic, spirits, a god determining the course of his life, and faries, witches and trolls. ))

People need to take responsibility for their own actions. Advertising yourself as an atheist in today's America is not good. It's harmful for the corporate world and unheard of in politics.

Stop pretending that you have a "spiritual connection" with others and grow up. Stop thinking that "god" will help you or hurt you.

It's time to grow up.

**Sstashmoo** · February-11-10, 10:06 PM

Lose it troll..

**Gistok** · February-12-10, 12:37 AM

Quote: "All of my friends are smart enough to be atheists"

Wow.... just wow...........................

**gibran** · February-12-10, 04:04 AM

gee all my friends have many beliefs and even some of them are smart enough to do their own homework...and see the compatibility of science and spirituality...as far as being atheist they are on their own quest also are some o f the most humane people...but here is how I rationalize it _my spituality)...until they prove to me statistically: with the question of; is there a God, [[lets say with in even,005) I will err with if you can't not prove the existence, I would rather take my 22 + of school and experiences and err in the side of faith....because like primitive man whose stories and metaphors make up the bible...[[at a cognitive level they were able to grasp...)...I chose to have a spiritual base and a if you will; a magical thinking understanding...because while I don't grasp all of physical science...from what I do grasp [[ no it is not perfect) I understand I am learning more each day...and I put my faith into it each day...

While I question spirituality and man made religion; and understand the evils and manipulation that has been it's shortcomings, I still understand it's basic tenets....i can only imagine the power and compassion of the sermon on the mount and if we could live by it's messages what a wonderful world it would be...

What drives us to chose is complex...now do I believe in evolution yes and that we all can be genetically linked yes, and that we migrated and are from a similar background yes, and that we lost the dinosaurs millions of years ago: yes; that we have been around a lot longer than what the bible proclaims, yes. I also believe that we have done great harm with mankind hiding behind the cross, the star of David and the crescent...but, we didn't understand molecular biology and other man discoveries concepts either at first...and at this point in our evolution we have developed a method of inquiry that brings is to debate of the existence of a God, that some feel that picks Superbowl winners and loves the Red Wings over the blues...I chose to believe in a greater power, that created us and that man made religion is a vessel to support a structure that we can understand by blind faith at times; and by reason to see beyond the structure with our own cognition to question, challenge and deduce our own conclusions....if that means we have to surrender our ego a little OK, but it should act as a spring board to extend our humanity to all...including to those who don't believe the way we do...

Again what was creation but the beginning of a evolution that we are still struggling with today...and what is faith, well that is and evolution and journey for some and a destination for others....but what is love? It's knowing that you are part of a bigger picture that we can't always understand but we seek it as if it is a concrete thing, that accepts us even beofre we accept it.

**Big Dog** · February-12-10, 06:24 AM

Something that changes a bad person, into a good one, is not easily dismissed.

**Pam** · February-12-10, 07:17 AM

It's time to grow up.

You don't sound very grown up yourself. If you want tolerance for your beliefs you have to practice tolerance towards others. I'm an agnostic with religious friends and family members and I just don't discuss it with them. If they find religion helpful in some way, then fine, it's none of my business.

**Meddle** · February-12-10, 07:23 AM

You don't believe in Kwame'? Or Matty? Or Coleman?

**Gannon** · February-12-10, 08:22 AM

Oh Dev[[il)man,

I have been considering this matter for much of my life...at least the second half of it. I am no slouch intellectually...but I rely upon my experience more than anything for my instruction in truth. I can only truly know what I've directly experienced.

I've had way too many experiences that confirm the existence of a God-like Being still very involved in our world today...so I must simply stand here and say that you are very wrong.

I can understand your frustration with religion, I have the same...but perhaps even stronger because of my experiences within it. But in no way, shape, or fashion can you place the blame on the Maker for what those Made do with their Free Will.

So...where to go from here, you started this discussion. How wrong do you want to be proven?! It will ALL be experiential, so you will have to endure anecdotes and stories...but I sit here ready to share with you a steady stream of miracles that have happened around and through me that ONLY serve to prove that something other is happening that we don't perceive that affects what we DO.

Cheers, sincerely,
John

**rb336** · February-12-10, 09:09 AM

i'm an atheist, devman, and your post was...wrong.

i don't give a rat's behind what religion anyone is, at long as it isn't injected into public policy

**devman1983** · February-12-10, 09:27 AM

Greetings all. Wow, I've never been called a "troll" before anywhere in my 13 years of internet existence

Yes, I realize my first post was very pointed and harsh. That's the way I intended it to be. A lot of religious people have no problem pounding their beliefs into me, so likewise I can go back at them.

I do have a tolerance for spiritual/religious people. Half my family is religious and half is not, so like Pam says we choose not to discuss it. However, if someone I know is willing to engage in a logical debate about the existence of god then I'm more than willing. Otherwise I say "I respect your beliefs."

But, inside my head I'm thinking this: The weak mind needs something to answer the eternal questions of "why" and "how?" Instead of using science and reason to figure out the big quandrys of life people take to the easy road out. God. Miracles. Divine intervention.

The gradual progression of time has gradually been eating away at religion. The progression of science is the catalyst. What makes the sun go up and down? God. What brings us storms, floods, and punishes us? God. OK, zoom into a thousand years into the future and we find the actual reasons for these things. Science has consistently been disproving religion, and eventually hundreds of years from now [[if we don't destroy ourselves first) science will disprove ALL religion.

Now, like my friend Richard Dawkins says, I'll give you a .01% chance that a god of some sort exists. Because it's true - I cannot tell you the origin of the universe and why this is all here. BUT, I'm not going to automatically assume that a magical deity created everything. [[Or if you don't like the term magical we can use god)

To me, believing in god, spirits, faith is unreasonable. It's silly to me to see people getting down on their knees and praying to a god. There is no reason to believe that a god exists in any form. A physical god, metaphysical god, omnipotent god, any kind of god. We have NO proof that god exists. Nothing. Cite me bible references, past stories, blah blah - show me the proof. When will Jesus be ressurected? Show me a miracle.

Just because we don't understand it doesn't mean we have to associate it with a miracle of divine intervention.

**devman1983** · February-12-10, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by Big Dog

Something that changes a bad person, into a good one, is not easily dismissed.

Not easily dismissed? So you are saying that if someone changed their life for the better than it must have been the intervention of god that made it happen?

What about purely if someone realized they were doing bad things. They realized they were on the other side of society. So, they change their ways to do good. Believe it or not, atheists can do good too! You don't need god to change your life.

Me being an atheists doesn't make me the devil. I'm actually a very kind person and I help others every day of my life.

**devman1983** · February-12-10, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by gibran

While I question spirituality and man made religion; and understand the evils and manipulation that has been it's shortcomings, I still understand it's basic tenets....i can only imagine the power and compassion of the sermon on the mount and if we could live by it's messages what a wonderful world it would be...

The church, as an institution, has done great things for communities and people alike. People need to be preached to. Without it they feel lost and alone. What is better than having someone else tell you what to do?

Don't get me wrong - the idea of a church as a community organizer and helper to the troubled is a great thing. It just so happens they preach the idea of god so that's where I disagree.

Originally Posted by gibran

Again what was creation but the beginning of a evolution that we are still struggling with today...and what is faith, well that is and evolution and journey for some and a destination for others....but what is love? It's knowing that you are part of a bigger picture that we can't always understand but we seek it as if it is a concrete thing, that accepts us even beofre we accept it.

Nice thoughts and a well constructed argument.

**devman1983** · February-12-10, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Gannon

Oh Dev[[il)man,

I have been considering this matter for much of my life...at least the second half of it. I am no slouch intellectually...but I rely upon my experience more than anything for my instruction in truth. I can only truly know what I've directly experienced.

I've had way too many experiences that confirm the existence of a God-like Being still very involved in our world today...so I must simply stand here and say that you are very wrong.

I can understand your frustration with religion, I have the same...but perhaps even stronger because of my experiences within it. But in no way, shape, or fashion can you place the blame on the Maker for what those Made do with their Free Will.

So...where to go from here, you started this discussion. How wrong do you want to be proven?! It will ALL be experiential, so you will have to endure anecdotes and stories...but I sit here ready to share with you a steady stream of miracles that have happened around and through me that ONLY serve to prove that something other is happening that we don't perceive that affects what we DO.

Cheers, sincerely,
John

Hi John-

If you makes you feel better, if god does exist I'm sure he has a special place reserved for me in the fiery pits of hell.

) And yes, I can smile about that because I know it's not true.

Unfortunately when you die you go into the ground and rot. I don't believe there is anything more to it. Anything more than that is pure speculation. We have NO proof that anything besides you rotting in the ground happens.

I know this sounds morbid. This isn't what people want to hear. We want to think that we'll go on to another life, a happier place, or up in the clouds with our beloved ones. So, for the majority of the population they can think this and live an easier, happier life.

As for your experiences - well, the only thing I can say is this: Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean that a divine power intervened. Same theory can be applied to every "miracle" in the past that we are now able to disprove with science.

The human body is an electronic organic computer. As science progresses we prove this over and over. Yes yes, it is an extremely complex organic computer that we still aren't able to figure out 100% And isn't it amazing that we have this unique dynamic consciousness that allows us to think for ourselves and think critically of the world! How can science explain the human conscousness, the "soul" as some people say. I don't know if it 's possible to explain that idea.

What I'm saying is that attributing it to god is wrong. These are very primitive thoughts.

As for me being proven wrong: It's impossible. It's also impossible for me to prove YOU wrong too. But, the proof is leaning towards science. Religion is not based on fact and reason. Science is. In time science will disprove all religion. But for now with our limited understanding we have to rely on our intuition. You're right there.

**rb336** · February-12-10, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by devman1983

To me, believing in god, spirits, faith is unreasonable. It's silly to me to see people getting down on their knees and praying to a god. There is no reason to believe that a god exists in any form. A physical god, metaphysical god, omnipotent god, any kind of god. We have NO proof that god exists. Nothing. Cite me bible references, past stories, blah blah - show me the proof. When will Jesus be ressurected? Show me a miracle.

Just because we don't understand it doesn't mean we have to associate it with a miracle of divine intervention.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, but your original post carried with it a nastiness in tone I find distasteful and off-putting, even when I find myself slipping into a similar mode

**jt1** · February-12-10, 10:14 AM

I've had way too many experiences that confirm the existence of a God-like Being still very involved in our world today...so I must simply stand here and say that you are very wrong.

But in no way, shape, or fashion can you place the blame on the Maker for what those Made do with their Free Will.

So are you going with the often stated and hypocritical line that mistakes are the fault of man but 'miracles' or good is due to intervention? That, to me if is one of the biggest issues with blindly believing in a higher power - god gets a pass for war, the earthquake in Haiti, the birth and uprining of evil dictators, etc but whenever something good happens it is attributed to a higher power.

What don't people hold their god accountable for the murders, rapes, wars, cancers, etc that plague our world. If there is a higher power that allows children to be abused, women to be raped, destruction, theft, etc then I assume I have little reason to look too kindly towards these 'all powerful' being.

Bearinabox · February-12-10, 10:19 AM

I have no idea if there's a god or not. I don't think it really matters. Trying to persuade people one way or the other is a rather pointless endeavor, I think.

**jt1** · February-12-10, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

I have no idea if there's a god or not. I don't think it really matters. Trying to persuade people one way or the other is a rather pointless endeavor, I think.

Agree 100%

**gibran** · February-12-10, 10:25 AM

we tolerant a tooth ache until it is pulled...we accept each others beliefs with compassion. Why? because for those who believe and those who don't are still examples of individual accountability just to their own conscious if nothing else...it's when we surrender totally and do WRONG..that it becomes an entity into it's own... and thats been the desription of evil ...

**devman1983** · February-12-10, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

I have no idea if there's a god or not. I don't think it really matters. Trying to persuade people one way or the other is a rather pointless endeavor, I think.

If the whole world were atheists then we wouldn't have the religious wars of the past thousands of years. What the hell is wrong with the sunnis & shiites? They are so blind to the world. They have been fighting because they disagree on who succeeded the prophet Muhammad.

Religion is important because people goto war for it. People hate eachother for it. It's important to understand religion [[or lack thereof) so we can become a better educated society and have tolerance for one another.

**Pam** · February-12-10, 10:27 AM

What don't people hold their god accountable for the murders, rapes, wars, cancers, etc that plague our world. If there is a higher power that allows children to be abused, women to be raped, destruction, theft, etc then I assume I have little reason to look too kindly towards these 'all powerful' being.

Well, because that's all Satan's fault.

**jt1** · February-12-10, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Pam

Well, because that's all Satan's fault.

............

**devman1983** · February-12-10, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Pam

Well, because that's all Satan's fault.

Pam, if you were one of my friends I would laugh because I know they would be joking.

I'm assuming that you aren't joking. Since you decided to participate in this thread I'll respond to you - and I'll put it as nicely as possible.

You've been brainwashed into thinking "Satan" exists and has influence in our world. Am I going to hell for all my blasphemy?

**jt1** · February-12-10, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by devman1983

Pam, if you were one of my friends I would laugh because I know they would be joking.

I'm assuming that you aren't joking. Since you decided to participate in this thread I'll respond to you - and I'll put it as nicely as possible.

You've been brainwashed into thinking "Satan" exists and has influence in our world. Am I going to hell for all my blasphemy?

I read it as humorous.

**rb336** · February-12-10, 10:35 AM

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? -- Epicurus