Grosse Pointe Racetrack

**kerchen** · February-09-10, 10:14 AM

Hello,
I'm working on a project to make a computer simulation of the Ford-Winton "999" race at the Grosse Pointe racetrack in 1901. I found this great thread in the Hall of Fame: http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/6790/81842.html but it doesn't have some of the information I'm looking for. Specifically, I'd like to know the dimensions of the track and perhaps more information about how it looked so that I can create a 3D computer model of it. Since the atdetroit forum is no longer active, I'm hoping some of the people involved in that thread made the leap over to this forum. Any information would be greatly appreciated!

Paul Kerchen

**sumas** · February-09-10, 11:05 AM

Don't want to burst your bubble but a fabulous 3 D video model for that track already exists. It was featured at the centennial party, 2007 War Memorial for Grosse Pointe Park.

**kerchen** · February-09-10, 12:09 PM

On the contrary, that's good news because it means someone knows the track dimensions.

**Hornwrecker** · February-09-10, 12:22 PM

Try doing a search for combinations for race and track at the Burton Collection. This site wasn't up when we did the first thread. Most of the images seem to be from the Detroit Driving Club track.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/i/imag...index;c=dpa1ic

LodgeDodger · February-09-10, 12:25 PM

http://www.detroit.lib.mi.us/nahc/

**Mikeg** · February-09-10, 12:41 PM

Perhaps there is enough information on these two map segments for you to be able to scale the track dimensions.

1896 map - Detroit Driving Club
1910 map - Grosse Pointe Race Track

**MikeM** · February-09-10, 12:54 PM

From the previous thread, poster Wilderness said the track was a one-mile oval, but I don't know how long or wide it was. I would try to contact him at the www.mi-harness.com website.

**gnome** · February-09-10, 01:26 PM

from the Burton collection:

You'll notice that the track runs next to the river. So this couldn't be the Detroit Driving Club, but I'm not sure where else it might have been located.

Further searching found this pic. In the description it sez:

Aerial view of race track at the Detroit International Fair and Exposition, with tents, side by side, all along track and the Detroit River in the background.

I can't recall the exact location of the 1890 expo, but a rough placement would be just up river of Fort Wayne ... I think

**gnome** · February-09-10, 01:38 PM

again from the Burton:

Depicts race between two automobiles. Printed on photograph: "By W.D. Benham, Detroit, 1918."Label on front: "Ten Mile Race between Henry Ford [[in No.4) and Alexander Winton at Old Blue Ribbon Race Track, East Jefferson Avenue opposite present site of Hudson Motor Car Company. October 10th 1901. Time 13 minutes, 23 4/5 seconds, 45.33 miles per hour. Ford won. Lee Cuson, mechanic. 999 built 2 years later." Handwritten on back: "Henry Ford, Alexander Winton, 10 Mile Race, Gr. Pointe Track, Ford won in 13-23 4/5, Oct. 10, 1901. For full details see evening papers of above date or morning papers of Oct. 11, 1901."

**Mikeg** · February-09-10, 02:19 PM

Using as a reference the known distance between Montclair and Beniteau Streets, I scaled them and the track dimensions on the 1896 map and calculated a track length of 5,259.9 feet with straightaways that were 774.8 feet apart. That is close enough to confirm that the track was a one mile oval.

I would conclude that this one-mile track was designed with straightaways that were each 1,422.65 feet long and 775.0 feet apart. This assumes that the turns were of a constant radius [[which they appear to be from looking at the maps).

**kerchen** · February-09-10, 05:12 PM

Wow, you guys continue to uphold the Hall of Fame standards of the original thread!

This is some great stuff and it will be very useful for what I'm doing. Thank you!

**Gistok** · February-09-10, 07:22 PM

What was the track that was located in Grosse Pointe Farms between Vendome and Kerby?

It appears that the north half of the track exists in the current road system, where Kerby has another roadway right next to it. There is a large mansion with symetrical wings on the inside of this track curve. Can't remember if it was the Erv Steiner mansion, or the one where Susie Quattro grew up in....

**sumas** · February-09-10, 07:46 PM

That was McMillans's track. It was private. He was a wealthy senator. Horse racing was the game of the day back then.

**Savoyard** · February-09-10, 07:59 PM

Further searching found this pic. In the description it sez:

I can't recall the exact location of the 1890 expo, but a rough placement would be just up river of Fort Wayne ... I think[/quote]

Close gnome. It was just down river from Fort Wayne. Here's a portion of a pamphlet advertising the Expo. Note the race track on the right side. [[Click on the picture for a close-up).

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/k...etroitExpo.jpg

**gnome** · February-09-10, 08:29 PM

Thanx for setting me straight, Savoyard ... seems like you might know about this subject ... in the picture you supplied, is that Zug Island on the bottom right?

**Savoyard** · February-09-10, 08:45 PM

It's hard to say. To me, the channel looks much larger than what's around Zug Island today, but I know that doesn't mean much. Note that there are rather large ships dropping people off at the Expo. To me, I've always assumed it was the Rouge River. But that would leave Zug out completely. It's a bit misleading too because the Expo site itself was enormous. So it's possible the entire site from below Fort Wayne to the Rouge was filled by the site. I know mapmakers have been known to take liberties, but this is a Calvert Lithographic Co. map, and he wasn't known to make mistakes. I'll leave this mystery to our map gurus [[calling mikeg). BTW, this site was later the headquarters of the Solvay Process Co. Now parts of it are owned by Matty Maroun and his new trucking site.

**MikeM** · February-09-10, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

What was the track that was located in Grosse Pointe Farms between Vendome and Kerby?

It appears that the north half of the track exists in the current road system, where Kerby has another roadway right next to it. There is a large mansion with symetrical wings on the inside of this track curve. Can't remember if it was the Erv Steiner mansion, or the one where Susie Quattro grew up in....

Steiner's.

**MikeM** · February-09-10, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by gnome

Thanx for setting me straight, Savoyard ... seems like you might know about this subject ... in the picture you supplied, is that Zug Island on the bottom right?

Yes, it is. Or, I think it is, but I can't remember if the cut-off to make Zug Island was dredged by this time.

**Hornwrecker** · February-10-10, 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by MikeM

Yes, it is. Or, I think it is, but I can't remember if the cut-off to make Zug Island was dredged by this time.

Looking over the NOAA historical charts, there was a narrow channel dug in the 1903 chart of the Detroit River, by the 1921 map it was widened to accommodate larger vessels for a straight shot up the Rouge River.

http://historicalcharts.noaa.gov/his...rical_zoom.asp

Do a search for Detroit.

{Looking at the 1907 chart of the Detroit River, not far from the Detroit Driving Club track, at Jefferson and the MCRR is located the Thomas Auto Co works, a location that I've never found before. Interesting.}

**MikeM** · February-10-10, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Hornwrecker

Looking over the NOAA historical charts, there was a narrow channel dug in the 1903 chart of the Detroit River, by the 1921 map it was widened to accommodate larger vessels for a straight shot up the Rouge River.

When I get time I'll dig out a Free Press article I have from 1891 about the sale of Zug Island. As I remember there was a small creek, leading from a bend in the Rouge to the Detroit River, which created the island, although the mouth of the creek was frequently cut off in dry weather conditions. The creek was later dredged to make the shipping channel.

**kerchen** · February-10-10, 12:15 PM

Sorry for being so vague about what I'm doing. At this point I can't get into the details, but I can say that my project is something I'm getting paid to do and that my client hasn't given me permission to discuss the project in any detail. I'm building my own model because it needs to have certain real-time performance characteristics that may or may not be present in more-detailed models that may exist and, frankly, I would have never guessed that someone else had already made one! So I would be grateful for any information anyone has regarding that model even if it isn't something I could use directly in my project. When the project is complete and has been announced by my client, I will post the details in this thread.

Paul

**sumas** · February-11-10, 12:44 AM

If I were you, I would share your fee. The model you are looking for exists. Save you tons of time. Try googling Village of Fairview Historical Society. Check for the President, walking talking expert on Detroit race tracks.

I do not mean to be coy myself. I own a copy of this CD. I can't share it since it is copyrighted.

**kerchen** · February-12-10, 05:47 AM

I'm guessing you're referring to Nick Sinacori? I will try contacting him directly. Thanks for the tip!

**sumas** · February-12-10, 06:36 AM

Yes his name is Nick. He lectures and does tours. He is so knowlegable, I could listen to him for hours.

As I recall, at the centennial lecture he did for GPP, the architect firm that built the track is still in business but had no corporate memory of it. They sent a bunch of their executives.

I am a hugh history buff and am glad you didn't take my suggestion in the wrong way. The 3 D model is really that good. Stellar in fact.

It shows everything, the Grandstand, the access, the main building with dining facilities, the keepers home and horse barns. It is all historically correct. Aside from the cd, Nick has amazing photos including that of the race in which you are interested in.

I know the family and they are all delightful. You should not have a problem contacting him but if you do I will provide an email address. Just ask.