Original cost of the Ren Cen? Present day value?...

**Al Publican** · February-05-10, 04:49 AM

I remember going down to the construction site of the Ren Cen around 1974 and taking some photos. What was there previously, the Robin Hood Flour building?

I'm trying to remember the '70s cost of putting up the Ren Cen, something like $80M. What did GM pay for the Ren Cen in the '90s, about the same amount? If so, with inflation, that means the property did not appreciate.

I was last in the Ren Cen last autumn. The appearance is a vast improvement over the original Festung Amerika-look. I'm hoping GM, the Ren Cen, and downtown Detroit will prosper in the future. This from someone that lived downtown for 12 years from until 2001.

**Kathleen** · February-05-10, 06:55 AM

These articles may shed some light on the financial
situation.

New York Times, May 17, 1996
G.M. Buys A Landmark Of Detroit For Its Home http://www.nytimes.com/1996/05/17/us...l?pagewanted=1

USA Today, May 9, 2008
GM buys its Detroit headquarters for $626 million
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...quarters_N.htm

**jonathanlivingstonseagull** · February-05-10, 09:38 AM

It would be interesting to see a list of the retail stores on the roster when Ren Cen opened. I know they had some pretty high end stores in there for a few years.

**DetroitPlanner** · February-05-10, 10:39 AM

Double post [[mods please remove)

**DetroitPlanner** · February-05-10, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by jonathanlivingstonseagull

It would be interesting to see a list of the retail stores on the roster when Ren Cen opened. I know they had some pretty high end stores in there for a few years.

Mark Cross, Cartier, FAO Schwartz, Anton's were some of the high dollar stores, but they had all sorts of stores in there including Sibley's, Olga's, Big Boy's, Otto's, Kerby Coney Island, Waldenbooks, MacCauley's, Turkes, White's Records, Radio Shack, the Creation Station are some of the ones I remember. Most of the high dollar stores were located in the shopping ring on the second level. First Floor had more conventional stores including a lot of services.

**jonathanlivingstonseagull** · February-05-10, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Mark Cross, Cartier, FAO Schwartz, Anton's were some of the high dollar stores, but they had all sorts of stores in there including Sibley's, Olga's, Big Boy's, Otto's, Kerby Coney Island, Waldenbooks, MacCauley's, Turkes, White's Records, Radio Shack, the Creation Station are some of the ones I remember. Most of the high dollar stores were located in the shopping ring on the second level. First Floor had more conventional stores including a lot of services.

Thanks, DP. Hard to believe.

**Hermod** · February-05-10, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Mark Cross, Cartier, FAO Schwartz, Anton's were some of the high dollar stores, but they had all sorts of stores in there including Sibley's, Olga's, Big Boy's, Otto's, Kerby Coney Island, Waldenbooks, MacCauley's, Turkes, White's Records, Radio Shack, the Creation Station are some of the ones I remember. Most of the high dollar stores were located in the shopping ring on the second level. First Floor had more conventional stores including a lot of services.

If they had been profitable, they would still be there.

**econ expat** · February-05-10, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by jonathanlivingstonseagull

It would be interesting to see a list of the retail stores on the roster when Ren Cen opened. I know they had some pretty high end stores in there for a few years.

Godiva Chocolates Boutique
owned by Maureen Keane- Doran
[[Orville Hubbard's 'to sir with love')
married to Wayne Doran, head of Ford Motor Land Development at the time

**jonathanlivingstonseagull** · February-05-10, 12:59 PM

Thanks. Does anyone know if Taubman was involved with the original "mall" at Ren Cen?

**DetroitPlanner** · February-05-10, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by jonathanlivingstonseagull

Thanks. Does anyone know if Taubman was involved with the original "mall" at Ren Cen?

I would doubt it. He had his plate full at the time building Woodfield, Fairlane, Briarwood, and Lakeside. These malls are what catapulted him from a small player to what he is today, an ex-con.

**jonathanlivingstonseagull** · February-05-10, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

I would doubt it. He had his plate full at the time building Woodfield, Fairlane, Briarwood, and Lakeside. These malls are what catapulted him from a small player to what he is today, an ex-con.

Yeah, he was busy at the time. I do believe he worked with Ford on the development of Fairlane so I was wondering about Ren Cen. Come to think of it, before it was remodeled by GM, Ren Cen did have some of the same Taubman-esque lines and fixtures.

**DetroitPlanner** · February-05-10, 01:36 PM

Under GM Taubman did manage the 'Riverfront Shops' which was the umbrella name for retail operations at Ren Cen, Millender, and the Parking Garage. This was about the time that he was also working on Fountain Walk in Novi. He got out of both of these ventures quickly.

EastSider · February-05-10, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Kathleen

These articles may shed some light on the financial
situation.

New York Times, May 17, 1996
G.M. Buys A Landmark Of Detroit For Its Home http://www.nytimes.com/1996/05/17/us...l?pagewanted=1

USA Today, May 9, 2008
GM buys its Detroit headquarters for $626 million
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...quarters_N.htm

Also remember that last year, GM tried to find a buyer for the complex, hoping to enter into a lease-back situation, and couldn't.

'Value' [[better to use the term 'price,' because it's not subjective) is determined by what someone pays for something. I'll let you draw your own conclusions about it's 'value' if no one bought it.

**iheartthed** · February-05-10, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by EastSider

Also remember that last year, GM tried to find a buyer for the complex, hoping to enter into a lease-back situation, and couldn't.

'Value' [[better to use the term 'price,' because it's not subjective) is determined by what someone pays for something. I'll let you draw your own conclusions about it's 'value' if no one bought it.

You can't really use last year as a measuring stick for valuing the Ren Cen. First of all, GM was teetering on an impending bankruptcy so nobody was gonna lease-back anything to them -- even on a good day. Second, the credit markets were frozen solid, so no one could get money to buy the place even if they wanted. Third, the national commercial real-estate market has still yet to bottom out, and last year the fall was just getting going [[it lagged the residential real-estate drop by a year or so).

**stasu1213** · February-07-10, 05:11 PM

I still think that GM will sell the building to the first entity who woudl come along with the right price. I thought that it was a mistake building the RenCen in the first place. In a city where the factories were moving out to other areas during the incubation period of the planning of the RenCen, why build a monstrocity like that.

**3WC** · February-07-10, 10:09 PM

The Renaissance Center was not named by Henry Ford as the NYT stated. There was a contest open to the public and several persons suggested the name and shared prizes.

G.M. was an original tenant and part owner of the Ren Cen from day one. It occupied 4 floors in Tower 400. [[Virtually all companies which did major business with Ford, including Bendix et al, and Ford's main bank, Manufacturers, and other major companies which invested for civic purposes, were original owners and tenants in the Ren Cen.)

In addition to the original equity, there were four major institutional lenders, including Ford Motor Credit Corporation.

The Ren Cen is one of the major real estate financial disasters of all time. In addition to the several hundred million dollars lost by the owners and lenders, the Ren Cen decimated the downtown office market, which has never recovered, and never will.

Henry Ford II and Al Taubman were friends and co-investors in several real estate deals, including the hugely profitable Irvine Ranch deal in which Ford was a very minor player.

It is a well known fact that as the basements were being dug, Ford took Taubman on a tour of the site and Taubman told Ford that the best thing he could do for Detroit was to fill them in and abandon the project. When it came to real estate Taubman was far smarter and more practical than Ford and of course Al was 100% correct.

Taubman and Max Fisher were the driving forces behind the Riverfront Apartments in an effort to stimulate commercial development downtown but they knew going in the the apartments would never ever be profitable. Ford had no idea the Ren Cen would be a disaster.

**Detroitej72** · February-07-10, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by 3WC

It is a well known fact that as the basements were being dug, Ford took Taubman on a tour of the site and Taubman told Ford that the best thing he could do for Detroit was to fill them in and abandon the project. When it came to real estate Taubman was far smarter and more practical than Ford and of course Al was 100% correct.

Taubman and Max Fisher were the driving forces behind the Riverfront Apartments in an effort to stimulate commercial development downtown but they knew going in the the apartments would never ever be profitable. Ford had no idea the Ren Cen would be a disaster.

3WC, through the years, I've read your posts, with mixed emotions, as I'm a Detroit Lover, and defender, I must say, keep up the posts[[weather they are incorrect or correct!).

**mikeg19** · February-08-10, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by 3WC

The Ren Cen is one of the major real estate financial disasters of all time. In addition to the several hundred million dollars lost by the owners and lenders, the Ren Cen decimated the downtown office market, which has never recovered, and never will.

Care to elaborate on that at all? How is it the Ren Cen decimated the downtown office market? I always thought it was the suburban office markets luring downtown offices away that decimated it? Or possibly the amount of crime downtown?

**hudkina** · February-08-10, 02:45 AM

Crime downtown? Where?

DetroitDad · February-08-10, 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

Care to elaborate on that at all? How is it the Ren Cen decimated the downtown office market? I always thought it was the suburban office markets luring downtown offices away that decimated it? Or possibly the amount of crime downtown?

The tenants in various Downtown buildings essentially got sucked into the Renaissance Center. The same thing happened on a mini scale when the Earnest and Young Building was built, it took tenants from other buildings, and lured no one in from outside the city.

Some moved to suburbia, the others moved into the Renaissance Center. You have to wonder though, if the motive for Renaissance's construction was to retain and compete with the suburban malls and office parks. Did they view the old Downtown as obsolete?

**stasu1213** · February-08-10, 09:59 AM

I agree with mikeg19. Many businesses had moved out of buildings downtown and into the RenCen. That had made others buildings downtown financially strapped for lack of tenants. The Ford family had not been able to see the forecast of the city. The amount of residence moving from Detroit into the suburbs.The companies and factories that were leaving Detroit. The rising of the Global market. The demand for smaller cars. Honda, Toyota, and Nissan making a dent in the automotive world. The blight that was beginning to infest the city. Had the Ford family, Mayor Roman Gribbs, and other investers were able to see this forecast as Taubman had, the RenCen plans would had been scrapped before it had left the architects table.

**iheartthed** · February-08-10, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitej72

3WC, through the years, I've read your posts, with mixed emotions, as I'm a Detroit Lover, and defender, I must say, keep up the posts[[weather they are incorrect or correct!).

He tends to discredit himself by offering his projections of the future as if fact. Por ejemplo:

The Ren Cen is one of the major real estate financial disasters of all time. In addition to the several hundred million dollars lost by the owners and lenders, the Ren Cen decimated the downtown office market, which has never recovered,

Fair enough statement, right? But...

and never will.

How do you go from saying that the Ren Cen was a failure to casting doom on the downtown Detroit office market for eternity? Leaping logic much? I mean seriously... In the year 2110, the downtown Detroit office market will still be faltering because the Renaissance Center was built 140 years before? Does anyone else realize how absurd a statement that is to make?

**Hermod** · February-08-10, 10:58 AM

Henry the Deuce filled the RenCen by economic extortion. When he saw that it would not fill in and of itself, he strong armed all kinds of law firms and accounting firms to put offices in there If you wanted to continue doing business with Ford, you had to have an office in the RenCen.