Detroit to Chicago corridor part of Obama's high speed rail proposal

[Novine]

"A Detroit-to-Chicago corridor could compete for billions of dollars in federal aid under a strategy for building high-speed rail the Obama administration outlined Thursday."

Detroit News

"A Chicago Hub network, which Obama called “something close to my heart� in reference to his adopted hometown, linking much of Midwest, including Toledo and Detroit with Chicago, Milwaukee, Minneapolis-St. Paul, St. Louis, Kansas City, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Indianapolis and Louisville, Ky."

Detroit Free Press

[upinottawa]

I would be interested in finding out how "high speed" these high speed trains will be. That being said, anything that decreases travel times and [[hopefully) increases the frequency of trains would be a good thing.

The US government should also consider working with Canada on direct Detroit-Toronto and Detroit-Buffalo higher speed rail lines.

[Russix]

Let's build high-speed rail, No wait, Let's tear down a train station.

[Gsgeorge]

Can anyone say Michigan Central Station?

[rooms222]

Having the links both to Chicago, Toledo, and hopefully Toronto will help getting rail service back to the point it was 10-15 years ago [[at a much higher speed).....I don't think the current Detroit station or the MCS are well suited for service.

Connection to Public Transit and parking are both important to a station. The current station is way too small, and has no parking, but is on Woodward, the most likely spot for light rail.

The MCS does not have parking and is off the beaten track for public transit in the near future. The warehouse space does not suit the needs of passenger rail today. It seems to be in a good spot if high speed rail to Canada is developed.

I have generally taken Amtrak out of Dearborn. It has free safe parking. Many of Dearborn's boarding are because of this, I am sure.

One of the only immeidate post WWII stations of note is in Toledo. It also has free parking.

Just as Airports have to deal with both parking and transit issues, so do train stations.....

[professorscott]

It is not at all common for downtown big-city train stations to provide parking. Toronto's Union Station has no parking whatever - but you can take the GO trains into downtown from other stations, some of which have very massive parking lots, plus a "kiss and ride" area, and other things.

MDOT plans to rebuild the Detroit Amtrak station very near to the current one, and I think that will have a very limited parking area. I haven't seen detailed plans.

[DetroitPlanner]

Amtrak owns the rail on the west side of the state. Over there they have been able to get the trains to go as fast as 110 mph. Naturally the closer to Detroit they get the slower they becaome because they do not control the rails so the number of stops, crossings, pupulation densities, and sidings increase.
What can be done to speed of rail traffic is to improve linkages between the lines and enhance the sidings. This would lead to less idling trains and better on time performance.

[professorscott]

Let's assume for the sake of discussion that we get some of the high speed rail money. What do we do with it exactly?

[detmsp]

I would be interested in finding out how "high speed" these high speed trains will be.

110 mph. hardly high speed by european/asian standards.

[SCS100]

I still don't think they've reached 110 MPH out west yet, but I could very easily be wrong. There can be no grade crossings whatsoever on a high speed corridor, which could pose a significant problem for the current planned corridor. I know Pennsylvania's Keystone Corridor is either finishing or has completed a project designed to eliminate the grade crossings there. One also needs a certain type of track to allow fast travel, along with certain signal requirements. I know someone on here will go into more specifics about this eventually, but that is the first step. Then if you really want high speed, you have to electrify the entire line...

[ghettopalmetto]

110 mph. hardly high speed by european/asian standards.

Let's keep a few things in mind, here:

It has taken France and Japan over 30 years to get their high-speed rail systems to where they are today. We can't just up and build new trackage for a dedicated high-speed passenger rail system. Improvements are likely to be incremental as money is available, and the ridership market develops.

I expect initial improvements to include upgrades of interlockings, tie replacement, and construction of additional sidings. Some construction of additional track would not be unexpected. This kind of work is most likely, because they are the projects that states [[like Virginia) have been trying to complete in the past few years.

Over time, one could expect to see new passenger cars and locomotives, full double [[and some triple?) tracking, station capacity enhancements, and electification. All of those are a long ways off.

[DetroitPlanner]

110 mph is much faster than what can be done on I-94. It is also a more direct route, making a beeline from K'zoo to Michigan City.

These are not bullet trains, but this is high speed rail. Any faster and you would need to spend a significant amount in infrastructure to separade the grade of the track from crossings. Getting caught up in symantics will not do a darned thing to improve service. Incidently, just beacuse it can get 110 mph does not mean they will run the train that fast. It does stop at small towns like Dowagiawac.

[kraig]

I think I would actually prefer that the MCS be involved. I know that there is this big push to have things publicly owned, but, I think that dealing with Matty Moroun would go a lot better than dealing with City Council or having Ken Cockrel trying to facilitate anything. Let's face it, The Mayor and City Council, don't just suck, they blow.

[Russix]

Having the links both to Chicago, Toledo, and hopefully Toronto will help getting rail service back to the point it was 10-15 years ago [[at a much higher speed).....I don't think the current Detroit station or the MCS are well suited for service.

Connection to Public Transit and parking are both important to a station. The current station is way too small, and has no parking, but is on Woodward, the most likely spot for light rail.

The MCS does not have parking and is off the beaten track for public transit in the near future. The warehouse space does not suit the needs of passenger rail today. It seems to be in a good spot if high speed rail to Canada is developed.

I have generally taken Amtrak out of Dearborn. It has free safe parking. Many of Dearborn's boarding are because of this, I am sure.

One of the only immeidate post WWII stations of note is in Toledo. It also has free parking.

Just as Airports have to deal with both parking and transit issues, so do train stations.....

Are you suggesting that the Airport is better connected with public transit than MCS? Light rail is planned for Michigan Ave, until then 5 bus routes[[200, 125, 49, 37, 18) pass close by and with some rerouting MCS would have a connection between downtown every 10 minutes. Both agencies could agree to let Bus riders who have train tickets ride for free between downtown and MCS. HSR would not be making the abundant amount of stops that Amtrak currently does. I do not think they would stop in Dearborn, and definitely not Royal Oak or Pontiac if the line continues to Toronto. From an aerial view, MCS is a large building surrounded by grassy fields, empty buildings, and a large paved surface. If that doesn't say parking, I don't know what does, its just missing the crushed rock ballast. You could even go sofar to say that the office tower should be converted into an elevator garage.

http://dev.extenia.com/mcs.jpg

[detroit313]

Why hasn't anyone in the Mayor's office lobbied in Washington for even more money for a better transit system? It just seems like Detroit is setting itself up to fail, or lag behind at best!

MCS has so, so much potential. IMOA Union Station in Chicago pails in comparison to MCS.

[[Detroit could possible keep the midtown station open also.)

Here are a couple of things to consider in a dream station!

Renovation cost [[$300M)

MCS should have been the new Rosa parks terminal, or at least the east wing. [[$30M)

New DARTA HQ combining the total staffing in the tower of the building. and bringing Amtrak back.

Free shuttle service Downtown Via DARTA with Train ticket/receipt.

I estimate a total cost of $500,000,000.00

Two options to lower cost [[correct me if I'm wrong or seem like a sociolist)
Lease the structure from MM, careful of the language in the contract therefore not to impede on his trade empire

Or...exercise Eminent Domain...

[401don]

I hope this comes to fruition but I know that, being 50 yrs old, I'll never live to see it. Here in Ontario they just threw a couple of million at the 12th study in the last 30 yrs. or so for high speed rail in the Montreal to Windsor corridor.

I read an article on the weekend where a politician in the Eastern corridor between Washington and N.Y. said that if all of the high speed rail money for Obama's proposed sites was spent in that one corridor it might be enough to upgrade the rail lines. Much as it doesn't help Detroit, it probably makes far more sense to build the busiest corridor properly first and study the usage and economic viability. Instead, gov't will probably build 40 stations across the country, buy the locomotives and then scrap the project.

[kraig]

Why hasn't anyone in the Mayor's office lobbied in Washington for even more money for a better transit system? It just seems like Detroit is setting itself up to fail, or lag behind at best!

The Mayor didn't want stop watching the Sci-fi Channel.

[Russix]

Let's assume for the sake of discussion that we get some of the high speed rail money. What do we do with it exactly?

I think the bulk of the money will go towards buying HSR routes outright. A few years ago, a big stink was being made about how one railroad was selling much of the track that Amtrak uses in the middle of the state to another railroad that was at a lower operating class [[tracks maintained to accommodate slower trains). The rest of the money will go towards speed improvements and double crossing gates required for higher speed lines. Capital expenses in rolling stock are not going to be needed unless we plan on rebuilding the whole route to accommodate 110+ mph trains [[sorry no floating magnetic trains yet!)

[Russix]

Why hasn't anyone in the Mayor's office lobbied in Washington for even more money for a better transit system?

Because Washington doesn't pay for all of it, they require you to cover 40% of the cost and produce the ridership numbers to justify the expense. DTOGS[[8 Mile to Downtown) has the numbers to get Washington's approval, but no local funding source. Instead of private backers trying to come up with $150 million to build DTOGS, their spending $100 million to build another novelty people mover.

[Mackinaw]

This is good news, but I'm really with UpinOttawa. It would really be great for Detroit if it became a multi-spoke hub, too. Indeed, we should be directly connected to the cities of Ontario. We also need a rail connection to Toledo so that we are plugged into the main E-W corridor and you can take a train from Detroit to NY or DC. It is unacceptable that the 11th largest city and a top-10 metro area is cut off like this.

Detroit can be a hub, and it can support a full-on train station. This will be especially true if there is also comprehensive local/regional transit, be it light rail on Woodward and the spoke streets, a train to DTW and A2, and/or bus rapid transit. See ANY OTHER major city's main transit station and you'll see that even in this car-crazy country, inter-city and inner-city transit connectivity creates something amazing. See DC Union Station, Boston South Station, Newark Penn Station, hell even Toledo is way busier than any train station in Michigan. Detroit needs to aim for this as these sorts of federally sponsored opportunities come its way, so that we can be a hub from which you can get anywhere.

Finally, this goal is not inconsistent with the City's goal of growth through visitor traffic, conventions, and tourism. Why do you think other major non-sunbelt cities do so well with major events? You can get there, and then get around, easily, going through a major hub where everything is laid out. I feel very sorry for anyone that comes to Detroit for the first time without a guide, not just for the fact that there is no user-friendly hub to guide them, but for the fact that it is costly as hell to rent a car and have to park it. Detroit will be all the more desirable if you can fly to metro, take a train to your downtown hotel, and then walk around the downtown or take a jaunt to the DIA etc. on an easy-to-understand light rail system. Or if you can take a bus or train from another city and be deliver directly to the downtown area [[e.g. at Michigan Central Station). Only Detroit could lapse backward in the way that we have. We had all this 60 years ago, but not now, when you need it most to be a competitive city.

[Novine]

Jeff Gerritt says less than 1 billion would cover the entire Detroit to Chicago route.

"Making the track, signal and other technology improvements needed for high-speed service for the 280 miles between Detroit and Chicago should cost less than $1 billion and could be done in two years."

The corridor probably isn't going to get 1 billion dollars which means that if the state wants to see those dollars fully leveraged, the state needs to step up and take some of the freeway pothole money and put it into this project. Michigan has a leg up on almost every other corridor by already having a higher speed segment. Why aren't we pushing to be a leader?

[Detroitej72]

Chicago has an inter-urban train, the South Shore line running through Michigan City IN, all the way to South Bend. I think it would be a great idea to continue it all the way to Detroit.

I'm not an expert on the logistics, but I'm sure they could use some of the existing tracks to make it feasable. They might need to lay a few new lines here and there, but it is certainly worth considering.

I also like the idea of having shuttles or light rail line connecting the whole operation all the way up Woodward to Pontiac, and down to the People Mover. It may be a pipe dream, but its one I would love to see realised.

[oladub]

I question if there would be enough passengers to justify a Chicago-Detoit bullet train. Does the definition of 'high speed train' being used here imply something less? There haven't been that many people on the Wolverine when I've used it. It might more sense to have more frequent bus or train service to the Amtrak station in Toledo so as Mackinaw mentioned a link could be made to the main east-west rail service if that were a bullet train.

How much will tickets cost compared with today's Amtrak prices or megabus.com prices?

[Novine]

They're not talking about a bullet train. This is for interim improvements to allow higher train speeds over more of the segments between Detroit and Chicago. True high-speed rail would require a dedicated, grade-separated right-of-way. That's not going to happen any time soon.

When was the last time you rode? Amtrak is seeing record passenger counts on their trains between Detroit and Chicago.

[Russix]

Last summer Detroit-Chicago Amtrak tickets were usually sold-out. Imagine the demand if this trip only took 2 hours? Right now, it takes an 1 1/2 hours to take the bus from downtown to the airport, an hour to get on a plane, an hour in the air, a 1/2 hour to get out of the airport, and another hour by the subway to get downtown. So thats 5 hours to fly or 2 hours by train. 110 Mph is acceptable speed for this route it is the fastest compared to car, bus, or plane. Your current Amtrak locomotives and rolling stock are already 110 mph enabled, these dollars are going to be used to improve tracks, crossings and upgrade signal control systems to allow for safe operations at these higher speeds.

Chicago has over a dozen commuter lines like the South Shore. http://www.metrarail.com/System_map/index.html
I don't think commuters would be very happy waiting on a train that has to travel all the way from Detroit, nor would travellers coming from Detroit be very happy that the train starts stopping every few miles once it passes South Bend. The Detroit-Ann-Arbor commuter rail route will be Detroit's Metra type service. Its emphasis is on providing lots of frequency options. A HSR may stop in Ann Arbor, or it may not, you have to think of an HSR as an airplane thats moves on the ground, its goal is to move the largest amount of people the longest distance in the least amount of time. Which means you will still have local Amtrak trains still running the same route as an Express. You will have to take the train or bus into a downtown station to get on a HSR, sortof like an airplane doesn't stop and land at every airport enroute to its final destination.