Farmington Hills proposal to opt out SMART busses.

[Danny]

There is a proposal from the Farmington Hills City Council to opt out SMART busses from their main roads and here's the proof:

Bus service provides the people of Farmington Hills with a way to get to work, shopping and school, which we need now more then ever! It also boots business, which we need during a recession.

The Farmington Hills City Council will soon consider whether to put renewing bus service on the ballot. If they don't, we won't even get to VOTE-and SMART bus service in Farmington Hills will DISAPPEAR in 2011. In 2006, renewal made the ballot by just 4-3 vote.

First Canton, Novi, Livonia now Farmington Hills, how will people get to work, school, see their friends without the SMART bus? It seems to me that some suburbs just want to stay away from regionalizational progress. Most people can't drive their cars or afford one. Some the people might have rely on rides or taxis in which it might be too costly from them and the drivers. People of Farmington Hills stand up and fight against the SMART bus opt out. Vote YES in the next ballot and yes on the 2010 SMART bus millage for public transit is a option than asking people for a ride.

[313WX]

And I'm sure these same idiots will be complaining about the lack of alternative transportation when gas surpasses $6 this summer.

It's not wonder our young & educated [[who are mostly poor and can't afford the expense of a car when they can't find a job in their field) are fleeing the state like wildfire.

[sturge]

I got notification about this at work.
We were told to write to the email below.
jellis@fhgov.com

[sturge]

There's also the council meeting people can attend. Excerpt from the email.

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Then come to the City Council meeting this Monday, January 11, at 7:30pm at city offices on the southwest corner of 11 Mile and Orchard Lake Roads.

• Arrive a few minutes early to sign up to make a comment at the meeting.

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[casscorridor]

The suburbs who opt out should of SMART should be cut off from any regional assitance what so ever. If they don't want to be part of our region, fine. But if we can't get to jobs in their communities, they shouldn't be able to get ones in oures. 50% tax on all workers going from Canton, Novi, Livonia and Farmington Hills into the Metro Region.

These suburbs, Novi, Canton, Livonia and Farmington Hills are among the most sprawling and unstainable communities in Michigan. Along with them are Steerling Heights, Rochester Hills and Troy. These places, are utterly dependent on the rest of the region for jobs, for education, for water, for entertainment, for almost everything accept chain and big box stores. They are wealth leechers, not creaters. They leech wealth from older communities, getting their workers to move to the new subdivisions and and workplaces to move to their new office parks. Well I got news for these suburbs, the days of leeching and sprawling are over!!! If they want to survive, they better participate in the region, which means paying taxes for regional transit, including rail transit in Detroit. Sure, they may never ride the bus or ride a train, but it benifits the entire region. They obviously don't understand where their privlages come from.

[Det_ard]

It makes more sense for West Bloomfield to opt out of SMART. Parts of the township are 6 miles from the nearest bus route. It really only serves the SE corner.

Attachment 4720

There's no coverage on Haggerty Road, Commerce Road, Union Lake Road, Pontiac Trail, Northern Orchard Lake Road or Cooley Lake Road.

[wazootyman]

The suburbs who opt out should of SMART should be cut off from any regional assitance what so ever. If they don't want to be part of our region, fine. But if we can't get to jobs in their communities, they shouldn't be able to get ones in oures. 50% tax on all workers going from Canton, Novi, Livonia and Farmington Hills into the Metro Region.

This is a logical response.

These suburbs, Novi, Canton, Livonia and Farmington Hills are among the most sprawling and unstainable communities in Michigan.

I'm not sure how you'd define sprawling. I would place most 'exurbs' well beyond Canton, Livonia and Farmington Hills in the 'most sprawling' category. Novi, too, but unlike the others its build-up has been more recent. Livonia is actually quite dense by suburban standards. Staying strictly in the region...think of most of Livingston county, or the northern Oakland county suburbs if you want good examples of sprawl.

Along with them are Steerling Heights, Rochester Hills and Troy. These places, are utterly dependent on the rest of the region for jobs, for education, for water, for entertainment, for almost everything accept chain and big box stores.

Let's look at the top cities for employment, from 2005 [[I couldn't find anything newer, this is from SEMCOG):

Detroit 279,433
Southfield 103,177
Ann Arbor 101,773
Troy 101,583
Dearborn 86,679
Livonia 79,569
Farmington Hills 64,962
Sterling Heights 57,766

[[Source: http://www.semcog.org/uploadedfiles/...ates_02_05.xls)

How can a community be "utterly dependent" on others for jobs if they are amongst the highest per-community employers in the region? What do you mean by education? Excluding a major factor, K-12, most of the region's educational institutions are pretty well distributed. For water, you're right.

They are wealth leechers, not creaters. They leech wealth from older communities, getting their workers to move to the new subdivisions and and workplaces to move to their new office parks. Well I got news for these suburbs, the days of leeching and sprawling are over!!! If they want to survive, they better participate in the region, which means paying taxes for regional transit, including rail transit in Detroit. Sure, they may never ride the bus or ride a train, but it benifits the entire region. They obviously don't understand where their privlages come from.

You don't make much sense, and should really make use of the spell-checker. If you don't understand what has motivated companies to locate where they have, you're not thinking clearly. Taxes, city services, crime, proximity to the workforce and support businesses all play a major role. I'm all for Detroit to lure business back, but they have to earn it. No smart company will do it out of 'good will' alone; it's gotta be beneficial to the bottom line.

I'm with you on the anger regarding the SMART opt-out. I live in Livonia, and I voted against our opt-out for SMART some time ago. But keep a level head, please.

[Hermod]

This is a logical response.
For water, you're right.

Except that Detroit makes a profit selling water. Should Detroit decide to quit doing that, how long before Mt Clemens, Wyandotte, St Clair Shores, or other waterside communities decide to build a water plant to sell water to the burbs??

[Det_ard]

Except that Detroit makes a profit selling water. Should Detroit decide to quit doing that, how long before Mt Clemens, Wyandotte, St Clair Shores, or other waterside communities decide to build a water plant to sell water to the burbs??

Exactly, and that's what would have happened if Detroit chose not to offer water to the burbs way back when the system was first extended outside the city. There'd be two systems today, and Detroit would be stuck paying for their water system all on their own, or at least being forced to compete with a suburban system. The fantasy that Detroit could have stopped suburban growth in its infancy by withholding water ignores the fact that it ain't THAT hard to get water around here. More inefficient than one system? Probably, but not a show stopper as far as suburban growth is concerned.

[Detroitnerd]

Exactly, and that's what would have happened if Detroit chose not to offer water to the burbs way back when the system was first extended outside the city. There'd be two systems today, and Detroit would be stuck paying for their water system all on their own, or at least being forced to compete with a suburban system. The fantasy that Detroit could have stopped suburban growth in its infancy by withholding water ignores the fact that it ain't THAT hard to get water around here. More inefficient than one system? Probably, but not a show stopper as far as suburban growth is concerned.

Don't underestimate the start-up costs of a water system. They are significant, and have only gotten higher as federal mandates have been implemented.

And I don't think the argument is that Detroit could have stopped suburban growth in its infancy. It's just that Detroit chose to sell its water, thereby offering a subsidy to suburban development. That fact should neither be overstated or underestimated.

[Det_ard]

Don't underestimate the start-up costs of a water system. They are significant, and have only gotten higher as federal mandates have been implemented.

And I don't think the argument is that Detroit could have stopped suburban growth in its infancy. It's just that Detroit chose to sell its water, thereby offering a subsidy to suburban development. That fact should neither be overstated or underestimated.

I basically agree. It would have been costly, but not a show-stopper back then.

[Hermod]

Don't underestimate the start-up costs of a water system. They are significant, and have only gotten higher as federal mandates have been implemented. FLOAT REVENUE BONDS FOR THE INVESTMENT COSTSD OF THE SYSTEM AND THE WATER SALES TO THE USERS TO PAY THE BOND SINKING FUND, CURRENT OPERATING COSTS, AND A SLIGHT PROFIT.

And I don't think the argument is that Detroit could have stopped suburban growth in its infancy. It's just that Detroit chose to sell its water AT A PROFIT, thereby offering a subsidy to suburban development. That fact should neither be overstated or underestimated.

North of 14 mile, the burbs had their own well systems.

[jt1]

Except that Detroit makes a profit selling water. Should Detroit decide to quit doing that, how long before Mt Clemens, Wyandotte, St Clair Shores, or other waterside communities decide to build a water plant to sell water to the burbs??

DWSD is not allowed to generate a profit. Yuo can argue that Detroit or other communities may benefit by shared cost of infrastructure but the DWSD can not generate a profit.

A quote from DWSD:

By law, DWSD can only recover the cost of service – it

cannot make a profit. If “more people ride the bus,� or

a lot more water is sold than expected, the extra funds
received must be used for the system and offset the
need to increase rates in the future.

These extra funds

cannot be diverted to non-DWSD activities.

Just another bs statement that, if said enough, becomes fact to too many people.

[Hermod]

DWSD is not allowed to generate a profit. Yuo can argue that Detroit or other communities may benefit by shared cost of infrastructure but the DWSD can not generate a profit.

A quote from DWSD:

By law, DWSD can only recover the cost of service – it

cannot make a profit. If “more people ride the bus,� or

a lot more water is sold than expected, the extra funds
received must be used for the system and offset the
need to increase rates in the future.

These extra funds

cannot be diverted to non-DWSD activities.

Just another bs statement that, if said enough, becomes fact to too many people.

If Detroit makes a "profit" on the water sold to other communities, it can be put back into the DWSD system anywhere DWSD wants to put it. If DSWD makes a "profit" selling water to Ferndale, DWSD doesn't have to spend that money in Ferndale, they can use it to upgrade the pipes in SW Detroit or hire 3 or 4 more secretaries for the boss to chase around.

[Det_ard]

I think hermod may have meant that water sold outside the city generates more money than it costs to provide and thus subsidizes the city's water. Of course, with some clever cost accounting that can be covered up and made to look like both activities break even. I recall DWSD got their hand slapped for overallocating some expenses to their suburban customers in the past, including something about Detroit municipal [[not just city water dept.) radio service costs being allocated to suburban customers.

[Hermod]

I think hermod may have meant that water sold outside the city generates more money than it costs to provide and thus subsidizes the city's water. Of course, with some clever cost accounting that can be covered up and made to look like both activities break even. I recall DWSD got their hand slapped for overallocating some expenses to their suburban customers in the past, including something about Detroit municipal [[not just city water dept.) radio service costs being allocated to suburban customers.

We are getting into this now with electric utilities. In the old days, the utility provided electricity to a region and the state set their rates based on cost plus an allowed profit.

Many electric utilities have diversified into power generation and sales outside their regulated area and the allocation of costs between the regulated area and the unregulated area is pretty controversial at rate setting time.

Here in Florida, FPL is fighting a rate case with the state where the state is fighting allocation of executive bonuses to the regulated part of the company as a part of salaries since the bonuses are based on the profits generated by the non-regulated part of the company.

.

[Quonset Hut]

From the Farmington Press 12/30/09..."Farmington Hills and the other [23] communities, through council, will have to decide by the end of January whether you're going to allow your voters the opportunity to vote on weather they want to continue their millage for SMART bus service in this community. I would urge you [the FH council] to do that." said [County Commissioner Steven] Schwartz.
************************************************** *****
So it seems that every one of the 23 units needs have their council decide by the end of this month to put the 2-year SMART tax on the ballot. I don't know the players on the FH council very well, but I can send them an e-mail to put it on the ballot. The street service by me [[13 and Farmington) is not so good as you have to walk/bike to Orchard Lk Rd or 12 Mile. But the park and ride at OCC might seem reasonable if one is going near to a stop in the D

[SaintMe]

Except that Detroit makes a profit selling water. Should Detroit decide to quit doing that, how long before Mt Clemens, Wyandotte, St Clair Shores, or other waterside communities decide to build a water plant to sell water to the burbs??

For the record, Wyandotte has provided community owned municipal services to it's residents for more than a century.

[MichMatters]

Is there any other major metro area where mass transist is decided by every little village and burg by direct democracy? I don't see how you can even hope for a regional system when you have all of these municipalities getting direct votes on whether to opt in or out every year. The process seems to be designed almost so that the system will eventually wither away. A self-fulfilling prophecy, if you will. It seems to be a system of management designed so that you can get it to the size where you can drown it in a bathtub.

[sturge]

It passed! Now it will move onto the ballot in August.