Somerset Collection owner buys former Kmart headquarters

[Gistok]

The grid network of section line roads in Oakland and Macomb were amenable to commuter traffic even without expressways.

Amen to that... this very old aerial pic of Mound Rd. from 8 Mile Rd. northward would confirm that comment....

[casscorridor]

I think after the economic recession/depression, we will see the CBD start growing again, while Troy either keeps declining or stays about the same. My biggest expectation for Downtown and Midtown is a retail boom, it is really the only thing missing, besides more housing. We need every kind of retail, from grocery to clothing to electronics to furniture. I see there being a serious retail revitalization in the coming years. As for Troy, perhaps the lifestyle will be built. But I am confident L Brooks Paterson's dream of Big Beaver being the new Downtown Detroit will fail.

Troy Detroit, the big TROY letters written on the train station is an ironic symbol, at first though it may appear Troy or more broadly Oakland County has conqoured Detroit, but sooner than later those letters will be wiped from the columns and the train station will once again start proud while in Troy, the chickens come home to roost. Altready, corporations are making the move to Detroit. They are seeing the advantages of locating in an urban area. They know that their young workforce wants to locate in vibrant cities. New York was not build overnight, and neither will Detroit. There are many who say it can never be great again, yet it is happening right now. Come visit, first appearences may be decieving. Slowly, but surely, critical mass will take hold, and Detroit will be ranked among the top U.S. cities to live and do business.

[Hermod]

So can we blame you for the extensive freeway network of Detroit that destroyed real, viable neighborhoods? What did you do for them?

I was a recently graduated Civil Engineer. My Detroit civil service classification was Junior Civil Engineer. The only folks below me in the office were the Junior Draftsmen, the secretaries, and the stock room guy.

I spent my time with the city [[June-Nov 61) drawing detailed cross sectionsw every one hundred feet [[plus intervals if they were significant) from the beginning of the Ford-Chrysler Interchange to the end of the interchange north, south, east, and west to include all of those bridges [[it is a pinwheel interchange and not a cloverleaf). This included the widening of the Dequindre Yard bridge on the Ford.

As a part of my read-in, and when I could steal a few moments, I read most of the planning documents and forecasts for the Chrysler, Fisher, and Southfield Expressways. They also had post-mortems on the Ford, Lodge, and Davidson routes. At the time, Lodge was complete to 9-mile, Ford went out to about 7-mile, and Chrysler just went up to Mack Ave.

I worked in the old Water Board Building, a triangualr building near the City-County building. Cavanaugh was mayor. They had just installed AC in our building and were having trouble getting it "balanced" so we sweltered a lot.

I left on my 2-yr tour of active duty as an ROTC graduate. I stayed in the army as I never wanted to work on a drawing board again. I did like most of the people I worked with.

..

[fastcarsandfreedom]

Fair to say that a strong CBD is important to the suburbs--keeping in mind that the way the area has developed means the inverse is true as well.

Lost in all this debate about how the city and region developed is the fact that a developer believes that a key piece of property is worth investing in at a time when all we've heard is gloom and doom--this deal represents hope, if nothing else.

[Detroitnerd]

When I worked for the City of Detroit, Bureau of Expressway Design in 1961, the freeways had hardly extended beyond the city. They were looked at by the city as essential elements in reducing traffic congestion within the city. The close-in suburbs of Warren, Royal Oak, Ferndale, and Southfield were already growing without the expressways. Subdivisions were being created all the way out to Rochester. The grid network of section line roads in Oakland and Macomb were amenable to commuter traffic even without expressways.

Remember that downtown was not a major destination for most workers. Detroit was unique in that the commuter destinations were scattered around. Most commuters were going to Rouge, to Yipsilanti, to Highland Park, and other industrial destinations. Downtown was mostly banks, retail, and professional offices. If we had built light rail up the expressway rights of way in 1961, it would have made little difference to what Detroit became.

OK, lots to deal with. I agree that peripheral development preceded the construction of I-75 in Troy. But here is the timeline as I understand it, with all my usual, endearing overkill.

1920: Detroit is growing, acquiring more area by annexing township land. Experts predict Detroit will grow beyond Eight Mile Road within 10 years at this rate.

1920s: Detroit acquires the remaining Detroit operations of the streetcar system, which then stops at the border. Slowly, car-centered development begins to fill in the areas between the streetcars, and the DSR implements feeder coach services.

1929: Detroit has been effectively stopped from expanding out Michigan, Woodward and Gratiot by the incorporation of Dearborn, Ferndale and East Detroit.

1930s: No new development.

1941-1943: Davison Expressway built.

1942-1945: War boom, as 3 million people crowd in and around the city.

1945: War ends. Government subsidizes housing construction through loan guarantees and G.I. bill.

1940s: Detroit builds Lodge Expressway.

1945-1956: Detroit is lauded in national press for pursuing expressway-building and replacing streetcars with buses, but newspaper polls show Detroiters are attached to the streetcars, and jeer that the expressways are "Cobo Canals." Almost completely built out, Detroit can make money by selling water to suburban communities, but cannot harness any of the growth outside the boundaries. Meanwhile, freeways are cutting through Detroit's neighborhoods, cutting off neighborhoods from each other, and with few of the amenities promised in the 1945 Master Plan. Meanwhile, government policy dictates the dispersal of industrial facilities so American factories will be less vulnerable to nuclear attack. The promise is that no area will suffer at the expense of another; the truth only comes later. Manufacturers more than happy to set up new facilities along large parcels adjoining rail lines in the suburbs.

1948: Restrictive covenants struck down by Supreme Court.

1954: Brown vs. Board of Education of Topeka.

1955: Troy incorporates as "The City of Tomorrow ... Today!"

1956: Last streetcar runs on Woodward Avenue. President Eisenhower signs Interstate Act. Later, he realizes that the act isn't just for building city-to-city routes, but for actual urban freeway-building.

1960s: With the periphery of the city built up, surrounded by cheap land, freeways are built to begin the next phase of "outer ring" suburbs. During this decade, Warren goes from a sleepy, largely empty area to one of the largest cities in Michigan. Detroit only stays populous thanks to heavy immigration from the South. Also, freeway construction in the city means the demolition of thousands of homes, businesses and factories, effectively destroying the Hastings Street neighborhood. In the name of destroying "blight," thousands more homes are knocked down with subsidies from the Housing Act.

1970s: With freeways built out to Troy, there are still some kinks to work out. Suddenly, mile roads and access roads are jammed as people drive out to Somerset. It takes several years to upgrade traffic signals and roads to handle new role as feeder roads for the freeway and malls. Detroit becomes more black, more Southern, less prosperous. The second wave of suburban development begins. Supreme Court begins futile attempt at school busing in effort to challenge de facto segregation.

Alright, this little timeline probably gives you an idea of my perspective on things. Ultimately, what happens, from my point of view, is that the governments -- federal, state and municipal -- all pour money into building roads that harm the city and help the suburbs, destroying buildings [[with no future plans) in the city and building new structures in the suburbs, dispersing industry [[and jobs) from the city and putting them in the suburbs. And as the Supreme Court made progressive decisions about de jure segregation, the government was subsidizing de facto segregation.

Which is not to say it was all some big conspiracy. Money talks. Politically powerless people don't get their say. When people don't like things, they move, if you make it cheap enough for them. And the country really needed lots of new housing after the war, no doubt about it.

I feel that a good first step as we head into an uncertain century is to acknowledge what led up to where we are now. That's why I'm so glad you've decided to participate. As they say, let 'er rip.

[Hermod]

DN: You forgot one of the most important steps. Detroit was "built out" and industrial facilities were crammed into functionally obsolete buildings with limited employee parking and no room for expansion. People moving to the burbs wasn't a problem as they took their expenses [[in terms of school taxes) with them. It was the construction of all of those one story factory buildings along Van Dyke, Sherwood, Mound Road, and Stephenson Highway leaving empty buildings in the city. Industry pays taxes and needs little in return. People pay few taxes and need a lot in return.

As an example, there is/was [[not sure) a school district in southern Macomb County called the Fitzgerald School District. The real estate of the district is mostly industrial with relatively few residents. Not sure now, but back in the 50s and 60s, Fitzgerald had "Cadillac" schools with relatively low school millage rates.

It was industrial facilities leaving Detroit that destroyed the tax base, not a bunch of blue collar whites moving from the city to the burbs.

.

[Detroitnerd]

DN: You forgot one of the most important steps. Detroit was "built out" and industrial facilities were crammed into functionally obsolete buildings with limited employee parking and no room for expansion.

Yes, that was a consistent rationale of industry for moving out: limited railroad frontage, small parcels, congested rail lines, little parking. Of course, one has to look at the difference between prewar and postwar factories. Prewar factories were integrated into neighborhoods. They were surrounded with bars and barber shops, social halls and stores. Behind them, bungalows, flats and apartment buildings. They didn't need parking as much then; people could walk to work. In fact, the Rouge Complex had its own streetcar stop.

But the decision to build new factories outside the city meant more to employers than just better facilities. The broad-brush zoning meant that few workers lived right near the plant. People drove in from all over. The workforce was more difficult to organize. People left in their own cars and drove back to their own communities. I wonder if this was the beginning of when workers stopped thinking of their collective well-being and became more confused politically.

People moving to the burbs wasn't a problem as they took their expenses [[in terms of school taxes) with them. It was the construction of all of those one story factory buildings along Van Dyke, Sherwood, Mound Road, and Stephenson Highway leaving empty buildings in the city. Industry pays taxes and needs little in return. People pay few taxes and need a lot in return. As an example, there is/was [[not sure) a school district in southern Macomb County called the Fitzgerald School District. The real estate of the district is mostly industrial with relatively few residents. Not sure now, but back in the 50s and 60s, Fitzgerald had "Cadillac" schools with relatively low school millage rates.

That was the model of the day, anyway. Today it seems that companies demand so much more from municipalities: Tax breaks, subsidies, etc. Take it from a person who grew up in Dearborn, I get you here.

It was industrial facilities leaving Detroit that destroyed the tax base, not a bunch of blue collar whites moving from the city to the burbs.

Yes, I see what you're getting at, but this was a huge reorganization of the way people socialize, live, work and interact. I guess I'm concerned with more than just the tax base, but how policies ranging from housing subsidies, road subsidies, military strategies and legal decisions all worked to shower the suburbs with resources and sock it to the city.

Anyway, even as businesses left the city, now they're in a position to leave our suburbs. The tax situation you describe is actually more like what Troy is facing now. Troy actually gave a huge tax break to Kelly Services last year, just so it would agree to stay. That wouldn't have happened in the old days!

[Hermod]

Yes, that was a consistent rationale of industry for moving out: limited railroad frontage, small parcels, congested rail lines, little parking. Of course, one has to look at the difference between prewar and postwar factories. Prewar factories were integrated into neighborhoods. They were surrounded with bars and barber shops, social halls and stores. Behind them, bungalows, flats and apartment buildings. They didn't need parking as much then; people could walk to work. In fact, the Rouge Complex had its own streetcar stop.

Bars and barber shops, yes. Most of the factories were not near stores or houses. Industrialization of Detroit coincided with the advent of the electric street car [[thank you, Mr Sprague). Workers rode street cars and, later, buses to work.

When my grandfather was a supervisor at Victor-Peninsula, he would go to work, get things going, then walk over to the barber shop for his morning shave. He even had a metal template for the barber to use to trim his mustache, the barber kept the template on the shelf behind grandpa's shaving mug.

Lots of bars near work then because the workers were paid in cash and would always hit the bar on payday. The wives would camp outside the factory on payday to get their household money before the husband could get to the bar and spend it all.

[Hermod]

Take it from a person who grew up in Dearborn, I get you here.

One of my uncles lived in Dearborn [[Rosalie St). They had Cadillac benefits thanks to the Ford plant taxes. There were concierge type police, fire, and EMS Virtually free college at the municipal community collage. Minimal property taxes for homeowners. Free Camp Dearborn for recreation. Hubbardville was a great place to live.

[Detroitnerd]

Most of the factories were not near stores or houses.

Yeah, maybe not right next to them, but, looking over old pictures, I often see neighborhoods as close as a few blocks away from factories, which you didn't see at all after broad postwar zoning regulations.

Great stories, Herm. Thanks for sharing!

[MikeM]

Yeah, maybe not right next to them, but, looking over old pictures, I often see neighborhoods as close as a few blocks away from factories, which you didn't see at all after broad postwar zoning regulations.

Great stories, Herm. Thanks for sharing!

But when you look at old pictures of plants under construction, there was a lot of vacant land around them. I think the industry attracted the businesses and homes after they were built.

[Detroitnerd]

But when you look at old pictures of plants under construction, there was a lot of vacant land around them. I think the industry attracted the businesses and homes after they were built.

That's certainly the case with the Dodge Complex. The "northern migration" from Detroit's Polish neighborhoods followed it and thickened around it.

[R8RBOB]

Anyway, even as businesses left the city, now they're in a position to leave our suburbs. The tax situation you describe is actually more like what Troy is facing now. Troy actually gave a huge tax break to Kelly Services last year, just so it would agree to stay. That wouldn't have happened in the old days!

Interesting thought. In the past, it would be Detroit that would have offer tax breaks to either bring a business into the city or keep it. [[i.e GM) But when a suburban community have to go into the kitty to keep a business we are in trouble because it shows that the suburbs are no longer profitable to a company's bottom line. Take Comerica for example. A major reason for them to pack up and move to Dallas was that no one wanted to move here. Not Detrot proper, but Metro Detroit as a whole. I am sure there more companies pondering if a relocation is in their best interest and a community can give out so-many tax breaks.

[MikeM]

That's certainly the case with the Dodge Complex. The "northern migration" from Detroit's Polish neighborhoods followed it and thickened around it.

Lincoln on Warren, Chalmers on Jefferson, Plymouth on Mt Elliott, Fisher on Fort. The WWI era factories seemed to be built on the outskirts of the city and the city followed. Same with the WWII era factories in the inner ring suburbs: Dodge & Hudson on Mound, Ford on Plymouth, Chrysler on Van Dyke, etc.

[Detroitnerd]

Lincoln on Warren, Chalmers on Jefferson, Plymouth on Mt Elliott, Fisher on Fort. The WWI era factories seemed to be built on the outskirts of the city and the city followed. Same with the WWII era factories in the inner ring suburbs: Dodge & Hudson on Mound, Ford on Plymouth, Chrysler on Van Dyke, etc.

Yes, indeedy. Except that the WWII-era factories were where the city couldn't reap the tax revenues. Which goes back to my theory that once the city was blocked off on main thoroughfares in 1929, it was the beginning of the end.

[R8RBOB]

But when you look at old pictures of plants under construction, there was a lot of vacant land around them. I think the industry attracted the businesses and homes after they were built.

Let me point out an area. Fenkell to the north, Southfield Freeway to the east, Telegraph to the west and Tireman to the south. At one point in Detroit's history this was a huge industrial base. Homes were built to surround these industries and the homeowners were employees of these industries.

[Hermod]

Lincoln on Warren, Chalmers on Jefferson, Plymouth on Mt Elliott, Fisher on Fort. The WWI era factories seemed to be built on the outskirts of the city and the city followed. Same with the WWII era factories in the inner ring suburbs: Dodge & Hudson on Mound, Ford on Plymouth, Chrysler on Van Dyke, etc.

After WWII when they reconstituted the Mich National Guard, the 425th Infantry Regiment had their armory in a former factory building down on Piquette. My father was in the 425th then and often took my brother and I with him when he went down for admin night [[he was an officer). The guard later built the Light Guard Armory out on 8-mile and abandoned the Piquette facility.

[Hermod]

Interesting thought. In the past, it would be Detroit that would have offer tax breaks to either bring a business into the city or keep it. [[i.e GM) But when a suburban community have to go into the kitty to keep a business we are in trouble because it shows that the suburbs are no longer profitable to a company's bottom line. Take Comerica for example. A major reason for them to pack up and move to Dallas was that no one wanted to move here. Not Detrot proper, but Metro Detroit as a whole. I am sure there more companies pondering if a relocation is in their best interest and a community can give out so-many tax breaks.

Problem started when the southern states began wooing industry. Just like major league stadiums, the cities had to begin to bid for them. Used to be you just had to smooth the zoning and permit process to attract an industry.

[Detroitnerd]

Let me point out an area. Fenkell to the north, Southfield Freeway to the east, Telegraph to the west and Tireman to the south. At one point in Detroit's history this was a huge industrial base. Homes were built to surround these industries and the homeowners were employees of these industries.

With the parks smack in the middle? I would've thought there'd be more industry where the two rail lines snaked around Oakman.

[R8RBOB]

Problem started when the southern states began wooing industry. Just like major league stadiums, the cities had to begin to bid for them. Used to be you just had to smooth the zoning and permit process to attract an industry.

I guess this is what the Southerners referred to when they said: "The South will rise again"

[MikeM]

Yes, indeedy. Except that the WWII-era factories were where the city couldn't reap the tax revenues. Which goes back to my theory that once the city was blocked off on main thoroughfares in 1929, it was the beginning of the end.

Industries moved outward to sites that met their needs at the time. Eventually this meant moving beyond the city limits, and they couldn't help it that the city boundaries couldn't expand. I don't think it was a strategy to escape the expenses of the city probably until the next generation of expansion.

[MikeM]

After WWII when they reconstituted the Mich National Guard, the 425th Infantry Regiment had their armory in a former factory building down on Piquette. My father was in the 425th then and often took my brother and I with him when he went down for admin night [[he was an officer). The guard later built the Light Guard Armory out on 8-mile and abandoned the Piquette facility.

That was the Studebaker factory.

[Hermod]

That was the Studebaker factory.

Based on the layout of the place, I can see why Studebaker abandoned it. It had a truly horrible layout for an assembly line. The building was a big doughnut with multiple floors connected by freight elevators. Handling and rehandling must have been brutal.

.

.

[Detroitnerd]

Industries moved outward to sites that met their needs at the time. Eventually this meant moving beyond the city limits, and they couldn't help it that the city boundaries couldn't expand. I don't think it was a strategy to escape the expenses of the city probably until the next generation of expansion.

Actually, my research suggests that that initial WWI-era expansion was for several reasons [[more space for gargantuan facilities, none of those pesky private claims that made developing within a mile of the river such a hassle, more railroad frontage, etc.), but a major one was escaping city taxes. This was given among the reasons for the construction of New Center [[GM, Fisher Body), Dodge Main [[Dodge Bros.), and Highland Park [[Ford). Of course, after annexation, the city had the last laugh around 1925. Note that Ford was well along with building the Rouge Complex by 1920, and I've often heard he was a prime behind-the-scene player in the formation of Dearborn in the late 1920s. By 1929, it was clear the city wouldn't be able to reap revenues from any new factories, and that the old ones would go by the wayside soon enough.

[Det_ard]

Actually, my research suggests that that initial WWI-era expansion was for several reasons [[more space for gargantuan facilities, none of those pesky private claims that made developing within a mile of the river such a hassle, more railroad frontage, etc.), but a major one was escaping city taxes. This was given among the reasons for the construction of New Center [[GM, Fisher Body), Dodge Main [[Dodge Bros.), and Highland Park [[Ford). Of course, after annexation, the city had the last laugh around 1925. Note that Ford was well along with building the Rouge Complex by 1920, and I've often heard he was a prime behind-the-scene player in the formation of Dearborn in the late 1920s. By 1929, it was clear the city wouldn't be able to reap revenues from any new factories, and that the old ones would go by the wayside soon enough.

Did your research turn up any hard numbers on the relative tax rates?