Farming in Detroit becoming a reality?

**gumby** · January-02-10, 10:02 PM

I came across an interesting article thanks to a post a www.urbanflint.com about a possible $30 million farm being created on Detroit's East Side by John Hantz. Looks like a pretty good idea to me, what does everyone else think?

http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/29/news...azines_fortune

**Whitehouse** · January-02-10, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by gumby

I came across an interesting article thanks to a post a www.urbanflint.com about a possible $30 million farm being created on Detroit's East Side by John Hantz. Looks like a pretty good idea to me, what does everyone else think?

http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/29/news...azines_fortune

Provided that the soil is not contaminated by 100 years of automaking.... I expect that there are plenty of skeletons in the closet [[or in the ground). All kinds of cancerous materials. One should look into the groundwater and in what direction it flows. It's no use to grow potatoes which turn out to be poisonous. If farming is viable than it is on old neighborhoods and not factory plots.

Greenhouses would be a good idea. Than you would get produce production yearround. We here in the Netherlands are the main exporter of flowers and bulbs worldwide. The city of Naaldwijk has the largest flower auction in the world. I'm a serveyer. I had to stake out a new greenhouse. The size of it was staggering. 1 by 1 kilometer! [[0.621 miles square.) That greenhouse was set up to grow paprikas.

South-west part of the Netherlands. All greenhouses!

LodgeDodger · January-02-10, 10:31 PM

Community gardens? Yes. Farms? No. It's actually a foolish idea. If people knew what farming was really like, folks would be screaming about it. Farms aren't those idyllic little patches of gardens with pretty red barns. Farms are big businesses that can create their own problems. Add that to an already troubled city and you've got big problems.

**DetroitPlanner** · January-02-10, 10:40 PM

Not to sound like I am straying too much from the original topic, I will preface my comments with the following: Greenhouses have been shown to be wildy successful in this imediate region around Leamington Ontario. Leamington is able to grow tomatos year-round that help to support its local manufacturing economy [[Heinz has a huge plant in Leamington). Therefore, Detroit should be able to build greenhouses that extend the growing season and make food at a competitive price to sell as an export to other parts of the country like Leamington does.

Whitehouse brings an interesting element to this that might work in that Wayne County's areotropolis plan is based partly on the Netherlands using its location and greenhouses to become dominant in the flower export business. Detroit could potentially use these two developments in tandem to help each other, though I am sure that focusing only on flowers would not get us out of our boom/bust with the economy cycle as I am sure flower sales shrink in bad economic times, but hey everyone eats!

**gumby** · January-02-10, 11:06 PM

This was the image associated with the article posted.

**Whitehouse** · January-02-10, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Not to sound like I am straying too much from the original topic, I will preface my comments with the following: Greenhouses have been shown to be wildy successful in this imediate region around Leamington Ontario. Leamington is able to grow tomatos year-round that help to support its local manufacturing economy [[Heinz has a huge plant in Leamington). Therefore, Detroit should be able to build greenhouses that extend the growing season and make food at a competitive price to sell as an export to other parts of the country like Leamington does.

Whitehouse brings an interesting element to this that might work in that Wayne County's areotropolis plan is based partly on the Netherlands using its location and greenhouses to become dominant in the flower export business. Detroit could potentially use these two developments in tandem to help each other, though I am sure that focusing only on flowers would not get us out of our boom/bust with the economy cycle as I am sure flower sales shrink in bad economic times, but hey everyone eats!

Er... hold on. I don't want to be responsible for the downfall of the Dutch flower business.

**Johnnny5** · January-02-10, 11:51 PM

I still don't understand how large commercial farms either traditional or via greenhouses have any viable future in Detroit. There would be enormous costs involved to remove infrastructure and contaminants, lack of suitable soil conditions, water access/runoff issues and not to mention the cost of the land.

What advantages would someone gain by farming in Detroit as opposed to less developed areas in Michigan?

**Gannon** · January-03-10, 12:49 AM

I advocate at least some greenhouses being legislated by the city government.

To CONTAIN any and all use of genetically-modified seed-stock produced by firms that have shown a willingness to take farmers to court for contamination of their crops.

There should be some tax benefits available, or even water-use credits given by our city-owned water department, for those small-scale local growers who invest in structures that extend their growing season...and process waste with small-scale manageable composting and contribution to a collective bio-diesel processing center.

We need to identify the basic needs our local small-scale community gardeners, even supporting the shared-use of the existing grass-cutting equipment turned into plowing and clearing vehicles. New purchases should be diesel as well, and some of the collectives that produce bio-diesel fuel can contribute a portion back as tax for regulating all of these operations.

I only today learned of folks meeting to figure a long-scale plan that will fit some of the needs of the larger grants and loan programs that are becoming available, and will increase as our successes from the last few years get reported by the now settled folks from Time magazine and beyond.

This is getting good.

Cheers, all.

P.S.: Say NO to large-scale farming in Detroit. Say hell no to any corporate involvement and strong-arm tactics from anyone associated with their interests. Better read the fine print in the grant applications, too. Great way to set a few hooks is to give someone cheap startup cash with connections that will take their hard work away later...when rules demanding certain conditions are not met. Insidious bastards, those corporations. I think we just have to stay on guard.

Retroit · January-03-10, 05:33 PM

I've spoken out before against this, but upon reconsideration, I think it may provide a short-term [[10-20 year) solution for the abandonment in Detroit. Some of the benefits:

The land has been sitting fallow and may actually be more nutrient-rich than land that has been heavily farmed.
They don't have to worry about contamination if they plant crops that are not intended to be used as food. For example, corn could be grown for ethanol. I believe soybeans also have non-food uses. This may even spur other industries in the city [[ethanol refinery?). Non-food crops would also be less susceptible to theft.
Farming would help to clear the land of litter and former driveways, sidewalks, foundations [[partially), etc., something that will be required if/when houses are ever built again.
It would provide some low-skilled job opportunities, potentially summertime jobs for youngsters.

I think that image posted is totally unrealistic though. I wonder if the people that make these images realize that by creating something so outlandish, they may be doing more harm than good. Wouldn't it be better to produce something that looks more doable?

**Whitehouse** · January-03-10, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by Retroit

I've spoken out before against this, but upon reconsideration, I think it may provide a short-term [[10-20 year) solution for the abandonment in Detroit. Some of the benefits:

The land has been sitting fallow and may actually be more nutrient-rich than land that has been heavily farmed.
They don't have to worry about contamination if they plant crops that are not intended to be used as food. For example, corn could be grown for ethanol. I believe soybeans also have non-food uses. This may even spur other industries in the city [[ethanol refinery?). Non-food crops would also be less susceptible to theft.
Farming would help to clear the land of litter and former driveways, sidewalks, foundations [[partially), etc., something that will be required if/when houses are ever built again.
It would provide some low-skilled job opportunities, potentially summertime jobs for youngsters.

I think that image posted is totally unrealistic though. I wonder if the people that make these images realize that by creating something so outlandish, they may be doing more harm than good. Wouldn't it be better to produce something that looks more doable?

The lifespan of a greenhouse in the Netherlands is not that long. Depends on the market, what the demand is. A flower greenhouse is smaller than a produce greenhouse. Although that also depends on what kind of money you want to spend on it. A greenhouse for paprikas is more than 6 meters high. I've seen a greenhouse going up that replaced a previous greenhouse which only stood for four years.

[[That quite an extreme example but it happened. It also depends on the area of a Greenhouse. The older greenhouse was on a small plot which was to be connected to another and to make things uniform they took the older greenhouse down and added a section to the neighbouring greenhouse.)

The avarage lifespan of a greenhouse is about 12 to 15 years. Well, I've seen bare spaces in Detroit that have been bare for much longer than that.

And indeed, the picture given above is very outlandish, But then again, isn't that what Detroit is famous for? How many concept cars have been designed that were copied into a production model? I can think of only a few examples, such as the new Camaro, which looked very much like the concept. It's all about feedback. However, for this greenhouse project they could have understated it a bit much. It alsmost looks like a stand along the tracks of the Indiana speedway....

**East Detroit** · January-03-10, 06:50 PM

Poor gumby got the detroitno.com treatment.

**Whitehouse** · January-03-10, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by East Detroit

Poor gumby got the detroitno.com treatment.

Ever tried that website?

Retroit · January-03-10, 09:01 PM

I guess I should have also mentioned that I don't think greenhouses are at all practical, due to cost and possible vandalism.

**Blueidone** · January-03-10, 09:55 PM

Commercial farming...such as that proposed by the Hantz Group...is not as labor intensive as you think. The seeds they use are patent-protected hybrid seeds that grow exactly in the conditions that the "farmers" set for them. They are electronically monitored and controlled in specific environments. The Hantz Group is not talking about farming in the sense that people will be out there sowing seeds and tilling the ground.

And this food will not really benefit the people of the City of Detroit unless they go to Kroger's or Walmart or Meijer's to purchase their produce. These crops are high yield products, made to be produced at the least cost and sold at the highest profit possible.

I strongly disagree with turning vacant land into these commercial farms. Think about it...a money person like Hantz wants to maximize his investment. Therefore these crops will be very valuable. So would it not follow that these "farms" will have to be protected by large fences. I can see it now...a cordoned off area in the middle of the City of Detroit.

Additionally, there are many many acres of land sitting fallow right now. The government pays farmers not to plant to control the market price of crops. Why not go buy those farms? Give the owner a nice little nest egg to retire on and then use their property. I do not believe that this is good for the City of Detroit.

**sumas** · January-03-10, 10:10 PM

I generally have strong opinions but large farming as a business in Detroit stretches my credulity.

By the same token I take exception to people who claim Detroiters lack the stamina to do such labor intensive work. I am a professional gardener, female, middle aged and perform backbreaking work all the time. I also have a smallish herb garden and do reasonably well selling my produce at local markets. To imply Detroiters lack inniative and work ethic is just plain wrong.

I am actually giving serious consideration to growing medicinal marijuana.

More likely I will grow gladiolas as a side line.

GSCG [[Cub) uses raised bed gardening techniques. Contamination is not an issue. Small gardens like mine can net decent profits, high yield, low maintenance crops can provide needed supplemental income. I welcome the return of "truck farmers".

Sumas

MichMatters · January-03-10, 11:21 PM

I keep hearing concerns about the pollution of the land, but has anyone stepped back to ask about just how environmentally harmful commercial-scale farming is? Depending on where it goes in the city, it is not at all impossible that the farm may add more pollution to the land than anything that stood there before it [[particularly in areas originally platted and existed as residential neighborhoods).

I'm all for community gardens, even large ones, but I don't see how commercial farming is viable in the city, or even desirable as a neighbor. Sure, maybe put up a few greenhouses, but Detroit's abandonment and vacancy is patchy. Unless you're going to tear up miles of the street, power, and water grid to create contiguous tracts of viable farmland, I don't see how this works.

**DetroitPlanner** · January-04-10, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Whitehouse

Er... hold on. I don't want to be responsible for the downfall of the Dutch flower business.

I doubt many of the Dutch flowers end up in the midwest. I was thinking more like foodstuffs because they are not as prone to economic volatility.

**Gannon** · January-04-10, 11:25 AM

Thanks for bringing it up, Retroit, but we need to also legislate AGAINST anything grown that isn't for food. Period.

NO corn that is only for so-called fuel. Enough of the greedy corporations are doing that.

We should be encouraging legacy and unique seedstocks to increase the biodiversity of our production, make it exactly what you cannot get at the average grocery store!

But specifically, NO genetically modified seedstock, and by that I specifically mean stuff where gene-spicing has occurred, not the old-school hybridizing that has been going on since Quetzalcoatl delivered the instructions to the Mayans.

Cheers!

**casscorridor** · January-05-10, 11:49 AM

I don't have a problem with this plan. I think it is foolish to oppose it, especialy foolish of people working on gardens to oppose it. They should be glad that serious investment is being poured into urban agriculture, that dozens of blocks will be put back to use. That new jobs are being created. I doubt this is a "corporate takeover"... Hantz isn't taking over any existing farms. He is just adding much more production to the mix, and I don't think there is any lack of demand. 3/4 of Detroiters still leave the city weekly to go to the suburbs. What do they go there for? Meijer, Kroger, etc.

I do have trouble with selling the food in suburban markets. I think the food should be sold at existing markets in Detroit as well as liqour/corner stores. All corner stores need to do is make their shelves higher, and add the produce. Make it so they don't even have to manage it. The managing of the produce could be handled by the distributer. What we really need is Detroit's 900,000 residents [[maybe less) buying from their neighborhood markets, and not driving to the suburbs for any neccesities.

There is so much untapped demand for groceries in Detroit, as well as retail. Look at Downtown and midtown-- what is missing? There is everything, entertainment, restaurants, theatres, museums, culture... but not retail, not grocery. Why is that? Why is retail allergic to Detroit? We have to reverse this trend. Could corner liqour stores be transformed into corner grocery stores? Could these stores be anchors to neighborhood retail centers?

**Gannon** · January-05-10, 12:22 PM

Nope.

The new 'jobs' created are merely new forms of indentured servitude. There is no freedom in debt, only slavery. Anyone who signs up for this is beholden to their demands and plans, within two to three years, after the land is clean, it will be only held by the corporations...with deep enough pockets to wait out even the best of managers and small-scale farmers who add their energy to the whole.

It is best to keep things independent.

The larger the farm, the quicker the federal government will get involved, and that is the LAST thing anyone wants in our town. We need the farm bureau and the focus of the FDA like we need any form of overseer's below perhaps God Hisself.

It is best to keep things local and small-scale, and purely organic in the most full definition of the word...not the one co-opted by the FDA a few years ago.

Cheers

**casscorridor** · January-05-10, 12:34 PM

Yes, the jobs will be exploitative. What jobs in capitalism are not exploitative? Capitalism is explotative by nature.

Isn't it called "wage slavery" after all?

I'll take a wage slave job, better than no job. By no means is this justification for wage slavery, merely accepting the reality that if you don't want to take that job, someone else will. We still have 45-50% unemployment in the city.

I would MUCH rather see cooperative forms of organization. Co-ops growing produce and supplying it to local corner stores. But even then, the market pressures will give in to workers accepting something less than fair compensation for their work. The entire economy needs to be restructured. But I don't see anyone stoping cooperative from starting. Like any other business, it takes money and work.

**GOAT** · January-05-10, 12:36 PM

^^^That's being a good comrade^^^. For people who believe in so many conspiracies I would think you would shy away from the communist end of the political scale.

**Gannon** · January-05-10, 01:14 PM

Socio-capitalism. It is the future...it is neither pure socialism, nor capitalism, nor communism...all devoid of spiritual guidance anyways.

nah, what is happening in Detroit will be more organic AND more mystical than anything imagined before

**cub** · January-05-10, 01:16 PM

Here is my two cents.

There is a stat I read somewhere that a family could make well over Detroit's median income level by gardening and selling produce just during the growing season and a little more with season extension procedures[[hoop houses, hot houses etc.). If I am not mistaken the median income level for Detroit was below $19,000 and they could earn $20,000+ gardening on three vacant lots.
The Hantz plan is to employ Detroiters at minimum wage. I think it would be better if we taught people to be their own bosses and figure out a way to make the vacant land easier to purchase and control by residents of the neighborhoods.

Retroit · January-05-10, 01:23 PM

So all jobs in a capitalist economy are exploitative?

I suppose all jobs in a communist economy are empowering?

Back to topic: Not only can contaminated sites be used to grow non-food crops, but I've discovered this Swedish organization is actually using these crops to decontaminate the soil. Detroit could be a fertile ground for this type of activity. Who else has as many contaminated industrial sites as Detroit?

http://www.swedgeo.se/upload/Publika...f/SGI-V599.pdf