Senate Theater.

**Whitehouse** · December-29-09, 10:56 PM

UA and Michigan have a thread. Senate deserves one also.

Some sad news first.

Swansong for the house organ....

Now... if only the UA were restored. There is an organ availabe for donation. [[pun intended....)

**detroitbob66** · December-29-09, 11:56 PM

Is the Senate Theater still in use or abandoned? Ive always wondered this

**mcsdetroitfriend** · December-30-09, 01:03 AM

bob watch the video in the link above and you'll see what's going on with the senate

**reddog289** · December-30-09, 01:52 AM

read about the farwell show in the paper, one of the places I wanted to go to but didn't make it to.

**DetroitZack** · December-30-09, 02:16 AM

That is indeed sad. Makes me wish I had gone there.

**reddog289** · December-30-09, 02:33 AM

If it were not for this site, I would most likely never heard a theatre organ. It was all do to Old Redfordette or Packman56 telling me about the train set up at the Redford Theatre around Christmas.
My "Gramps" grew up around the Senate. Got few stories from him.Think he was an usher there and his brother down at the Kramer Theatre.Can remember a few past their hits stars being there also. Like Juice Newton. Never did set foot in the place, Yet ate many Coneys next door.
Sad that the place has to close up, Yet I myself can't say I helped to keep it open. I can only be so many places at one time.And my dollars are getting very thin like all of us.

**Gistok** · December-30-09, 03:06 AM

It's sad that the Senate Theatre is closing and that Detroit may end up losing one of its 4 [[not 3 as the article mentions) remaining theatre organ. The 4th organ is the Moller 3/12 organ in the lobby of the Fox Theatre [[besides the mighty Wurlitzer in the auditorium). Only 4 theatres are known to have had an independent organ in the theatre lobby [[many had pianos), and the Moller at the Fox is the only lobby organ still in its' original site.

The problem with concerts at the Senate is that the theatre is located in a rough area of Detroit, and the DTOS folks have had a hard time getting patrons to venture down there. Hence the closure of the theatre.

From what I gathered there were discussions with the Detroit Opera House [[originally Capitol Theatre of 1922) to possibly move the organ there.

The Capitol Theatre has the largest organ grilles [[on either side of the Procenium arch) of any theatre in Michigan. Therefore the Capitol's Publix 1 Wurlitzer organ of 1925 provided the best sound of any organ in Detroit... even better than the larger 4/34 Wurlitzer at the Fisher and the larger yet 4/36 Wurlitzer at the Fox. A duplicate Publix 1 Wurlitzer was installed at the State Theatre in 1925, but the organ grilles were much smaller, thus providing a poorer sound than the Capitol. Sadly the organ chambers of the Capitol have been empty since much of that old organ ended up long ago in the Oakland Paramount in California.

A move of the organ to the Capitol [[Opera House) would therefore be a great combination of wonderful venue and organ.

However, the devil is in the details. The DTOS folks wanted virtually unlimited [[24 hour) access to the organ, which the Detroit Opera House logistically could not provide. Also, during operas, the organ console would have to be temporarily moved, because of the orchestra pit space needs of operas, again something that was unacceptable to the DTOS folks.

The Fisher's 4/34 Wurlitzer organ was a special order one of a kind instrument. Several of the 7 Fisher brothers played the organ at their family church, and wanted to have the Fisher organ have some of the attributes that a church organ had. So an order was placed at the Wurlitzer's North Tonawanda, NY organ company HQ that specified specific requirements that no other theatre organ had. The Fisher organ is probably the 8th largest surviving theatre organ in the country. It would be a shame to see it leave Detroit.

A "little birdie" told me that the principal donor of the Fisher organ lives in Ann Arbor, and he's working with a professor at the U of M to get them to build/provide a new location for this unique instrument.... which I guess is better than seeing it leave the state. But it would be a loss for Detroit to lose this wonderful instrument, whose console still bears the vibrant colors and details of the incredible [[but destroyed) Mayanesque style old Fisher Theatre.

You just cannot move a large theatre organ to just any space and expect it to have great sound [[such as a suburban Chucky Cheese's). It requires theatre like space with a proper mix of acoustics and organ chamber size and location.

My personal 2nd choice [[after the Detroit Opera House) location for this wonderful instrument would be if the Ilitch's were actually restoring the Detroit United Artists Theatre.... a theatre that also has massive organ grilles and wonderful acoustics. But we still don't know exactly what the Ilitch's are doing with the newly roofed and cleaned up United Artists [[Theatre and Building). But a restored United Artists with the Fisher organ would be a match made in heaven!

**barnesfoto** · December-30-09, 03:13 AM

Still, this is very depressing. The Senate is the last theater still standing built by a prominent early 20th century theater architect [[I was expecting Gistok to mention him). The neighborhood is hardly as rough as say, the area around the Eastown, or the Redford, but the odds that anyone is going to buy a large old theater in SWD in the middle of a devastating recession is very, very, low..

**Gistok** · December-30-09, 03:19 AM

Barnesfoto, I could have sworn that the Senate was designed by Charles N. Agree... but this says otherwise....

http://cinematreasures.org/theater/2611/

**ruth** · December-30-09, 08:09 AM

I played this organ as a kid when it first moved out of the Fisher and I've never lost my love for it. Gistok could you please send me the name of the U of M person who is working on the relocation? I'd like to help and may have a contact or two. you can get me at ruthhoff@uiuc.edu.

**Whitehouse** · December-30-09, 09:53 AM

Er... A bit off topic but do you think it's wise to post a mail address in the forum? Spammers are know to scour sites like this. A PM would be sufficient.

PQZ · December-30-09, 11:16 AM

Maybe if we collected enough Lego pieces, we could build the organ a new home!

Fire up the T-shirt press!

Let's do something!

**texorama** · December-30-09, 11:52 AM

I work for a performing arts organization and am spreading the word on this among friends and co-workers. Wish me luck.

**zitro** · December-30-09, 12:18 PM

Gistok, Since you seem to be the pre-emminent theatre historian on this forum I would like to ask your opinion about this chair.

Sometime in the mid sixties my mother and her friend were helping take care of an elderly lady who had no immediate family left. I don't recall the woman's name but I do know she was a very good swimmer in the Detroit area and had acquired many medals in Michigan AAU and other events [[many of which I am in possession of) so she had some type of local prominence.

When she passed she bequethed some of her belongings to my mother and her friend. Among the items was this lobby chair which she claimed came from one of the old theatres in Detroit. When my mother got it, it was in prety rough shape so she stained and antiqued it. My father added the broque on the front legs, but the jester figure is original.

Does this look familiar with anything you've seen in pictures of lobbies of some of the old theatres or would this just be considered a generic type of chair that could have been found in any of them during the early 1900's timeframe? It is now in my possession.

Any input or comments about it would be appreciated

**detroitbob66** · December-30-09, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by mcsdetroitfriend

bob watch the video in the link above and you'll see what's going on with the senate

MCS, Thanks, duh....I should have watched that first. Can anyone tell me if that organ was made at Wurlitzer in Detroit aka The Wurlitzer Building?

**jcole** · December-30-09, 01:08 PM

That's a cool chair, Z, I hope someone knows something about it

**Gistok** · December-30-09, 01:37 PM

Thanks for the image Zitro. I don't think that is from one of the larger downtown movie palaces. The downtown palaces had mainly upholstered chairs and sofas in their lobbies and foyers.

Unfortunately most neighborhood theatres bought their furnishings "off the rack"... so unless you can find a picture of the chair in a particular lobby [[still it's not a 100% guarantee it came from there), it becomes very difficult to determine the provenance of such furnishings without written documentation or theatre connection [[oral history of family member or acquaintance who once worked there...).

**Gistok** · December-30-09, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by PQZ

Maybe if we collected enough Lego pieces, we could build the organ a new home!

Fire up the T-shirt press!

Let's do something!

It's amazing that with just a few keystrokes one can go from brilliant insights on some threads to trolling on others...

PQZ... go argue with Fnemecek on another thread...

**zitro** · December-30-09, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Thanks for the image Zitro. I don't think that is from one of the larger downtown movie palaces. The downtown palaces had mainly upholstered chairs and sofas in their lobbies and foyers.

Unfortunately most neighborhood theatres bought their furnishings "off the rack"... so unless you can find a picture of the chair in a particular lobby [[still it's not a 100% guarantee it came from there), it becomes very difficult to determine the provenance of such furnishings without written documentation or theatre connection [[oral history of family member or acquaintance who once worked there...).

Thanks I knew it was a shot in the dark, I've looked over it thoroughly for ant markings and can find none. I guess the story I have in my family lore will have to be the one my kids will have to pass along to theirs.

**Whitehouse** · December-30-09, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

It's sad that the Senate Theatre is closing and that Detroit may end up losing one of its 4 [[not 3 as the article mentions) remaining theatre organ. The 4th organ is the Moller 3/12 organ in the lobby of the Fox Theatre [[besides the mighty Wurlitzer in the auditorium). Only 4 theatres are known to have had an independent organ in the theatre lobby [[many had pianos), and the Moller at the Fox is the only lobby organ still in its' original site.

Do we count five organs if the Redford theater is also counted? It is a bit smaller [[a 3/10 organ) but the organ is also situated in it's original spot. Here's that gem.

The organ at work.

And here's the Senate organ again.

**schulzte** · December-30-09, 09:47 PM

This is a crazy thought, but I would love to see a big organ like that end up at Joe Louis Arena with live music for Red Wings games. The old hockey arenas used to have big organs like that, particularly Chicago Stadium. It would be a hell of a retrofit to install it though.

**rooms222** · December-30-09, 09:57 PM

Indianapolis had a pipe organ in a Chuck E Cheese like restaurant, but one designed for the organ. That organ [[the original one from the Oakland Paramount that the Michigan one was sent to replace) is now in Florida in its third restaurant featuring it......

http://www.roaring20spizza.com/history.htm

I hope we can keep several pipe organs functioning here in Michigan....

**56packman** · December-30-09, 10:35 PM

Detroitbob66, the Fisher Wurlitzer was built at the main Wurlitzer factory in North Tonawanda, NY, the site of the company's pipe organ operation. Here is a shot of the Fisher organ on the assembly floor in N. Tonawanda http://www.dtos.org/images/Wurlitzer...ctoryFloor.jpg
The instruments were all pre-assembled at the factory, within the borders of the rooms they would occupy in the theatre they were shipped to. The local store on Broadway had a showroom with various pipe organs on display, one, the instrument that was in the Punch n' Judy theare in Grosse Pointe is currently for sale, it is in Sterling Heights. It was a demonstrator organ at the B'way store in '29.

**detroitbob66** · December-31-09, 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by 56packman

Detroitbob66, the Fisher Wurlitzer was built at the main Wurlitzer factory in North Tonawanda, NY, the site of the company's pipe organ operation. Here is a shot of the Fisher organ on the assembly floor in N. Tonawanda http://www.dtos.org/images/Wurlitzer...ctoryFloor.jpg
The instruments were all pre-assembled at the factory, within the borders of the rooms they would occupy in the theatre they were shipped to. The local store on Broadway had a showroom with various pipe organs on display, one, the instrument that was in the Punch n' Judy theare in Grosse Pointe is currently for sale, it is in Sterling Heights. It was a demonstrator organ at the B'way store in '29.

Packman, Thanks you very much for the insight....much appreciated

**56packman** · December-31-09, 01:16 AM

You're welcome. One other bit of intersting bit of useless trivia [[I specialize in useless trivia): Wurlitzers, and other brands of theatre organs [[Barton, Kimball, Robert-Morton, etc.) were sold to theatres on time payments, they operators would put money down, then make monthly payments, the smaller the operator, the longer the payments. The organ companies would build every part of the pipe chambers from the floor-up only, nothing attached to or braced to the walls. Doing so would make the organ components part of the building. The maufacturer owned the hardwood floor that the organ was built on, the first thing the installers did was lay the floor, or hire that out, then build the organ on top of that floor. It was written into the sales contract that the factory owned that floor and anything on it until the payments were satisfied.
Many theatre operators ceased payments after talking pictures made the organs less than necessary, and the factories repossed a ton of them, they limped through the depression by taking all of the "fun stuff" off of these instruments and selling them to churches, who were getting a deal during hard times.