We Can't afford the Politics in our Roads

[maxx]

I've been told that in Europe they don't repair their roads as often as we do in Michigan because they lay down 12 inches of cement and more rebar. One section of I 375 was built this way and it hasn't needed to be repaired in over 15 years. We also permit heavier trucks within the state, much heavier than Ohio or Indiana permits which also eat up the roads. In the past we may have had the money to permit these give-aways to whatever special interests are benefiting, but we don't today. The state is looking for ways to save money; making our roads right sounds like a good way. So who do I complain to? If enough people start talking about this, maybe things will change.

[Searay215]

I've been told that in Europe they don't repair their roads as often as we do in Michigan because they lay down 12 inches of cement and more rebar. One section of I 375 was built this way and it hasn't needed to be repaired in over 15 years. We also permit heavier trucks within the state, much heavier than Ohio or Indiana permits which also eat up the roads. In the past we may have had the money to permit these give-aways to whatever special interests are benefiting, but we don't today. The state is looking for ways to save money; making our roads right sounds like a good way. So who do I complain to? If enough people start talking about this, maybe things will change.

What rebar? Unless its a freeway they don't use rebar anymore.....and as for those expansion cuts ever 20 feet or so, are a joke. They only cut down half way into the concrete.....what the bottom half doesn't expand? Those cuts are only there so the concrete can get water and ice in them so they can crack within a few years and they can get the contract to fix or replace it. So yes there is politics.....

[ghettopalmetto]

What rebar? Unless its a freeway they don't use rebar anymore.....and as for those expansion cuts ever 20 feet or so, are a joke. They only cut down half way into the concrete.....what the bottom half doesn't expand? Those cuts are only there so the concrete can get water and ice in them so they can crack within a few years and they can get the contract to fix or replace it. So yes there is politics.....

You're confused. An expansion joint is a break through the entire cross section, and allows for movement. You have described control joints, which induce cracking at a specified location, as opposed to random cracking over the entire surface.

For what it's worth--all concrete is cracked.

The real politics in our roadway system is that we keep building more and more lane-miles, yet we're unable to afford to maintain what we already have.

[maxx]

The real politics in our roadway system is that we keep building more and more lane-miles, yet we're unable to afford to maintain what we already have.

So how could we have kept up with the increase of cars since real mass transit has not been possible in Michigan? Now with business down, we don't have that problem How much road widening is planned ? I still say that the roads have got to be made better to save money in the long run.

[ghettopalmetto]

What increase of cars, Maxx? Southeastern Michigan's population has been stagnant for 35 years.

Anticipating massive population growth, Atlanta tried to build their way out of congestion in the 1980's, through the Fixing the Freeways program. Ask them how well that multi-billion dollar clusterfuck worked.

[Lorax]

Just drove through Atlanta a couple of weeks ago, and they just got the new signage up on 75 through downtown, which was absent for much of the construction where several interstates merge just north of downtown.

What a disaster! Atlanta made the same mistake recently that Detroit made 50 years ago. A sea of concrete and confusing exits, and not enough traffic to merit the cost.

Detroit/Michigan needs to maintain what's there- remember how the Lodge lasted as a poured concrete stretch for decades before breaking down? It was built right the first time, while other local freeways were only asphalt.

The plan is to design obsolescence, so in a few years patching and roadbed replacement can keep people working. Really a stupid way to manage roads in a place where expansion/contraction is a yearl occurrance.

[MCP-001]

The Davidson lasted for nearly 50 years before it got a much needed rebuild.

Also, it was I-75 and not I-375 that got rebuilt. It is part of an experiment to prove that the techniques and the final product will work here in Michigan.

[Retroit]

...who do I complain to?...

You can complain to your elected politicians, but why should a politician be interested in making a road last 50 years if they are only interest in being elected in 4?

The problem is that road construction contracts are awarded based on lowest bid [[cheapest cost) and not highest value [[cheapest cost per highest lifespan of road). This results in asphalt being chosen when concrete would be a better choice. Also, unlike concrete, asphalt needs to be resealed occasionally if it is to repel the elements. Of course, the thickness of the road and the depth of the base are also important.

But these technicalities are overlooked by politicians who simply want to brag about how much they spend each year for roads instead of how much they will be saving over time by building roads that will last.

[ccbatson]

A concrete engineer once told me that the nature of the government contracts incentivise rapid degradation with new contracts to repair and replace earlier than higher quality materials would need....another fine example of government being very bad at business.

[Lorax]

More like government and private enterprise working together to fleece the taxpayer every few years out of billions.

Oh, gee, that's the dictionary definition of fascism. Government and the private sector blending their interests till there is no way to tell them apart. Wow, who would have thunk it?

[ghettopalmetto]

So now our Right Wing Gang of Experts is also knowledgable in roadway engineering? Is there anything at which you guys AREN'T experts?

Do keep writing on this thread, though. Every time you post, I laugh my ass off at your ignorance.

[rb336]

A concrete engineer once told me that the nature of the government contracts incentivise rapid degradation with new contracts to repair and replace earlier than higher quality materials would need....another fine example of government being very bad at business.

actually, the older highways, which were more heavily funded, lasted MUCH longer. with all the tax-cutting of the post Reagan era, governments have been forced into a penny-wise, dollar foolish approach.

[RO_Resident]

The European test segment is I-75 northbound from I-375 to near Warren. The southbound side was built to MDOT's old spec for that type of freeway.

How are they doing? Both are showing little structural wear. But that is to be expected, as they are both still pretty young. The European segment is showing some wear at the joints in the wheel paths--the patches MDOT put in are holding up.

MDOT has adopted some of the design elements from the European test section for their freeway designs.

There actually is a little truth to the quality of materials--during the freeway/suburban building boom during the 50's and 60's, the building materials were better. Now, you are more likely to see the materials recycled during construction. Good aggregate is hard to find that is near SE Michigan. Material costs go up the farther it has to be transported.

[Patrick]

Not a tin-foil hatter by any means here, but sometimes I honestly think that these construction and engineering companies build these roads so cheap because they know they will be the same company called back to fix or repair it.

[ghettopalmetto]

Not a tin-foil hatter by any means here, but sometimes I honestly think that these construction and engineering companies build these roads so cheap because they know they will be the same company called back to fix or repair it.

There are two different issues here. The contractor can only build to the design and specifications of the engineer. If they meet the specifications, they are not held to be responsible for the performance of the roadway. If they do not meet the specificiations, then it becomes an issue of workmanship.

In my opinion, a huge part of the problem is that Michigan has at least 84 agencies that build and maintain roads. Michigan's longstanding policy of deferred maintenance [[while they build M-59 and I-696) doesn't help matters, though.

[RO_Resident]

In my opinion, a huge part of the problem is that Michigan has at least 84 agencies that build and maintain roads.

The number is even higher than that--617 [[MDOT, cities, villages, and counties) for agencies that have jurisdiction over roads in Michigan.

[elganned]

But we can't have only one agency in charge of roads...that would be [[gasp!) socialism!

[ccbatson]

Yes Lorax...you got one right...it is corporate socialism and fascism...AND IT IS OBAMA BY DEFINITION. Let's see..new government/corporate ventures since Obama include GM, Chrysler, Banks, Student loans, Energy via the EPA and/or cap and tax, Organized labor, and Health care. What is left that isn't liberal fascism via Obama?

[RO_Resident]

How are they doing? Both are showing little structural wear. But that is to be expected, as they are both still pretty young. The European segment is showing some wear at the joints in the wheel paths--the patches MDOT put in are holding up.

I was a bit off in my assessment. The European segment is still showing a little bit of wear--a some of the panels are showing some edge cracking.

The area MDOT patched appears to be just north of the European segment.

Back to your normally scheduled programming....

[maxx]

Yes Lorax...you got one right...it is corporate socialism and fascism...AND IT IS OBAMA BY DEFINITION. Let's see..new government/corporate ventures since Obama include GM, Chrysler, Banks, Student loans, Energy via the EPA and/or cap and tax, Organized labor, and Health care. What is left that isn't liberal fascism via Obama?

And the alternative to government takeover of GM, etc.?

[maxx]

I haven't heard any alternative to the government takeover of GM, etc.yet. I do think that Robert Reich had it right when he said that the banks and investment houses that were in such trouble when the subprime bubble burst should have gone through bankruptcy.

[East Detroit]

The real politics in our roadway system is that we keep building more and more lane-miles, yet we're unable to afford to maintain what we already have.

You're absolutely correct.

There are brand new roads and expanded roads at 20 mile and above and then I see the bridges over I-94 in Detroit that look like they are about to fall down on top of my car during rush hour.

If we had a fiscally conservative mandate that you maintain before you build new, perhaps it would also help alleviate the sprawl.

[ghettopalmetto]

You're absolutely correct.

There are brand new roads and expanded roads at 20 mile and above and then I see the bridges over I-94 in Detroit that look like they are about to fall down on top of my car during rush hour.

If we had a fiscally conservative mandate that you maintain before you build new, perhaps it would also help alleviate the sprawl.

I don't know that such a policy in itself would help alleviate sprawl. Virginia, for example, has a law that no money can be spent on new road construction until all maintenance needs are funded. Yet, Fairfax County remains a hellhole of sprawling development and traffic congestion. Granted, there are other reasons for Fairfax's predicament, but those are beyond the scope of this thread.

[East Detroit]

I don't know that such a policy in itself would help alleviate sprawl. Virginia, for example, has a law that no money can be spent on new road construction until all maintenance needs are funded. Yet, Fairfax County remains a hellhole of sprawling development and traffic congestion. Granted, there are other reasons for Fairfax's predicament, but those are beyond the scope of this thread.

I think it would help, but certainly not be the panacea. Those who still want to live in the country and drive on dirt roads would be able to, without subsidy that is taking away from maintenance of what we have. Worst case scenario, we wouldnt have bridges with spray paint circling what is about to fall in one part of Metro Detroit and brand new roads in another.

[Retroit]

I don't know that such a policy in itself would help alleviate sprawl. Virginia, for example, has a law that no money can be spent on new road construction until all maintenance needs are funded. Yet, Fairfax County remains a hellhole of sprawling development and traffic congestion. Granted, there are other reasons for Fairfax's predicament, but those are beyond the scope of this thread.

Isn't the traffic congestion the intention of the law? If people don't want congestion, they will have to stop the sprawling development, thus reducing the need for more roads? Kind of a self-restricting mechanism? Sounds like many of the "urbanists" here at DetroitYES! would be in favor of this.