Old Detroit Bars

[Gingersays]

I never went to that record place. We'd go to Grinnell's downtown to buy records. I don't even remember that record store being there, although after I researched it I see they moved there in the 50s. I don't remember it...Tom Thumbs Pizza [[later Mormondo's) was right around there, as was Beaver's Boutique, the topless shoeshine place, if memory serves. I think the bar you're talking about was the Sweetheart.

Right down the street from there is the old garage that was owned by Jim Burwell, the KKK member who also drove the church bus and gave money to civil rights groups. The garage is still standing; the current owner, who also owns the old Clay School on MLK [[Myrtle) wants to turn the garage into a television/movie studio.

Speaking of record stores, there was a place called Jo-Jo's records in the neighborhood. Jo-Jo, the owner, was one of the biggest pimps around, along with guys named Fleet and Florida Bobby.

Ramsey's was a well-known, reliable auto, truck repair garage on Selden between Second and Third Avenues.
Harry ran Anderson Gardens on Third just North of W. Willis.
The Calumet Bar was across the street. Big Red-headed Ed had a 2nd-hand furniture store next to it.
A pimp named Rob, who owned a fancy Italian restaurant in Livonia, operated out of the Selden BBQ in the '60's. His nephews ran errands for him.

"Shanty Bill' was an older resident of a small apartment house on Cass just North of Temple. He sold Watkins products for income additional to his Social security. He was well-liked and an exceptionally good dancer.

[Gingersays]

Hi GingerSays,

Wow, you really have the lowdown on the Taxi-Dancing, you just expanded the song from a line to a couple verses I think, and the lay of the land from Woodward to 3rd is fascinating.

More names please .... give them a bit of posthumous fame. And any stories. A lot of things happen to a person in their life, but the things they remember, they remember for a reason, the "stories" often shape folks subsequent life in ways no one understands.

Or categories the girls by street, since life got rougher and rougher as you approached 3rd.

Third was "3 strikes out" and Fourth was often the end.
So many girls, so many stories. I will send more when I get time.
Gotta run out to a supper date right now.

[RickBeall]

Great! I'm practicing the riffs to the song right now, your words are soaking in like sharp smelling varnish into the grain of the riffs.

[Gingersays]

I never went to that record place. We'd go to Grinnell's downtown to buy records. I don't even remember that record store being there, although after I researched it I see they moved there in the 50s. I don't remember it...Tom Thumbs Pizza [[later Mormondo's) was right around there, as was Beaver's Boutique, the topless shoeshine place, if memory serves. I think the bar you're talking about was the Sweetheart.

Right down the street from there is the old garage that was owned by Jim Burwell, the KKK member who also drove the church bus and gave money to civil rights groups. The garage is still standing; the current owner, who also owns the old Clay School on MLK [[Myrtle) wants to turn the garage into a television/movie studio.

Speaking of record stores, there was a place called Jo-Jo's records in the neighborhood. Jo-Jo, the owner, was one of the biggest pimps around, along with guys named Fleet and Florida Bobby.

Jim was a real believer in civil rights. Put your money where your heart is!
Yes, he did fool people. He was supposed to.
He wanted people to get along
and did what he could to make progress.
He wanted racial justice in the end.

[dookie joe]

Ramsey's was a well-known, reliable auto, truck repair garage on Selden between Second and Third Avenues.

I remember Ramsey's well. I thought he did more body work than anything, though, although I could be wrong. Jim Burwell, the Klan guy, ran a truck repair shop on Third.

Other garages in the 'hood were the Sunoco station on Second, near Brainard Park; the Oklahoma station on the northwest corner of Second and Alexandrine; and the Shell station at Second and Canfield. I pumped gas at the latter two places back in the early- to mid-80s.

Harry ran Anderson Gardens on Third just North of W. Willis.
The Calumet Bar was across the street. Big Red-headed Ed had a 2nd-hand furniture store next to it.

A pimp named Rob, who owned a fancy Italian restaurant in Livonia, operated out of the Selden BBQ in the '60's. His nephews ran errands for him.

"Shanty Bill' was an older resident of a small apartment house on Cass just North of Temple. He sold Watkins products for income additional to his Social security. He was well-liked and an exceptionally good dancer.

I don't remember him by name, although I'm sure I saw his face if he was around. I'm 44, so I was a kid in the '70s, and too young to remember the '60s -- although I started hanging out in the bars at around age 13. I always looked older for my age; plus it was a different time, when nobody raised an eyebrow about serving alcohol to a kid.

While we're travelling down memory lane, does anyone remember the Pizza House? It was . . . well, a house on Second -- and a run-down house at that. I know some of the guys who used to work there; they'd make pizza all day, getting stoned out of their minds in the process.

[Django]

Was Ramseys what is now Campus Collision. If anyone remembers Snowbank, he works there now.

[dookie joe]

Was Ramseys what is now Campus Collision. If anyone remembers Snowbank, he works there now.

I'm not sure. I thought his building, which was across from Honest Johns, was tore down, although my memory sometimes isn't as sharp as it used to be!

[econ expat]

Was Ramseys what is now Campus Collision. If anyone remembers Snowbank, he works there now.

True. Ramsey's was mostly auto body repair.
Campus Collision bought the building and renovated it.

Ramsey was a Corridor 'fixture'. Died kinda young, about 10-15 years ago. He bought a run down apartment building next door to his shop and renovated it. Said it would have been cheaper and easier to tear it down, he even needed some more parking. But didn't have the heart to tear down a solid building. His sister lived in and managed the building back when the repairs were completed, not sure if she's still there.

[dookie joe]

I'm supprised ,no one has mentioned the old J.C. bar . It was run by Jerry &ginger . It didn't serve liquor ...just beer and wine. I was in there one night when a Mustang drove through the front door . It's now the Third street bar. Also the Song Shop bar . Pat and Dave bought it from Bill ,who ,it turned out never owned it .Pat & dave got bounced out ,and a year later ,they renovated and opened the Third Street Saloon . Formally known as the J.C. Bar.

I never really considered that bar to be "in" the neighborhood proper; I thought of that area more as "Wayne State."

Up that way, it was more like Cass Corridor Heights.

[RickBeall]

Cass Corridor Heights! ha ha ha! :-)

[eastsiderider]

Was installing new natural gas lines on Third in the 70's. Played pinball with the working girls at Andersens Gardens on lunch break. They were cool. Andersens had some good bands on Fri. nights during that time.

[dookie joe]

Yeah, some of the prostitutes were cool, others were complete jerks. Just like any other walk of life, I suppose. If the girls had one character trait in common, I'd say it was usually a low self-esteem. Often that manifested itself in aggressive behavior, as if they were compensating. Others, on the other hand, were sweethearts who didn't project their personal problems onto other people.

But when it comes to the girls who worked the street and the bars, most of them were dealing with some major personal demons, and the pimps exploited that. I imagine a lot of the hookers had been molested as kids; I know of a few for sure, and I suspect the percentage is pretty high. One girl I grew up with was molested by her dad. It was pretty much open knowledge what he was doing, but, hey, this was the Corridor in the 1970s, and that kind of stuff happened all the time. The dad later was convicted of molesting another kid. Before that, though, this girl ended up turning dates on Cass by age 14. She was so eager to get out of the house she hooked up with some pimp who exploited her.

It wasn't an uncommon story. A whole lot of girls were turned out by their 16th-17th birthdays. There was always some pimp willing to exploit them.

The girls would fool themselves into thinking their pimps were looking out for their best interests. Often, when a do-gooder would try to intervene as a pimp was beating his "ho," the victim would turn on the Samaritan and tell him to mind his own business.

The 1970s was a fascinating time to be living in that neighborhood. You can learn a lot about human nature by watching society's seamy underbelly. And it wasn't just the pimps, hos and other "Corridor scum" either -- lots of "respectable" folks from the suburbs often came to the 'hood to get their jones on. Some of the stories the hookers told about the freaks from the suburbs were hilarious!

[RickBeall]

Hey Dookie, tell us some of the stories, if you can remember them.

[dookie joe]

Hey Dookie, tell us some of the stories, if you can remember them.

Well, one that stands out [[and which can be repeated here) was the suburbanite who would pay girls to throw oranges at him while verbally abusing him. That was his thing; he'd get naked and the girls would chuck oranges at him, calling him names, etc. Sounds crazy, but I swear it's true -- or, at least it's something the girls talked about at the time. I never actually saw it happen, so I can't verify it as gospel truth. But it was one of the things the girls laughed about.

Then there were the more conventional freaky requests from Johns, many which included bodily functions I'd rather not discuss here. One guy would pay a girl to give him a pair of her used panties each week. That's all she had to do; once a week he'd show up, she'd hand him her panties, he'd give her the money and drive off.

We used to mess with the suburbanites who came to the neighborhood looking for hookers. My best friend lived in an apartment building on Willis, right across the alley from the Willis Show Bar, and we'd sit on his 2nd-floor porch and yell down at them, "Hey, you -- the guy in the blue shirt with the license plate #432-BER! We're gonna tell your wife!" Usually they'd ignore us, but once in awhile someone would cuss or flip us the bird -- exactly what we were hoping for!

[Fury13]

Hey Dookie, did the Willis Show Bar have a big neon lighted sign and marquee that curved around the corner above the entrance [[like the old Flame Show Bar did)? If not, what kind of sign did it have? I've looked for period pics of the place and have been unable to find any.

[dookie joe]

Hey Dookie, did the Willis Show Bar have a big neon lighted sign and marquee that curved around the corner above the entrance [[like the old Flame Show Bar did)? If not, what kind of sign did it have? I've looked for period pics of the place and have been unable to find any.

I'm trying to remember. I know there was a painted sign on the Willis side of the bar depicting curvy silhouettes and bearing the words "Strip-O-Rama! Girls * Girls * Girls!" Someone was selling tee-shirts awhile back which had the old Willis Show Bar sign; I bought one but it's way too small for me now -- for some reason when my wife washes my clothes, she keeps shrinking them, since nothing fits any more!

I never understood the "Strip-O-Rama" part, since I don't recall the Show Bar being a strip club, per se. What I remember was that it was just a bar where a lot of hookers hung out. Maybe at one time it had been a strip club. In fact, given the sign, I guess it's likely.

But I honestly don't remember whether there was a neon sign there or not.

[RickBeall]

Throwing oranges! Oh my gosh I've been outed!

[dookie joe]

Throwing oranges! Oh my gosh I've been outed!

I would ridicule you and call you names but you'd probably only get off on it!!!

[RickBeall]

Just be sure to throw the oranges too and I'm cool with it. Ha ha ha Ha.


I could go off on a tangent about new ways of making orange juice, but I'll have mercy on you guys.

[RickBeall]

On a sad note, I wanted to mention that BJ passed away this last weekend. She was the mother of bodybagging who started this thread.

I did not know BJ, but from what bodybagging has told me, she provided tough love and spot of sanity in a corridor that often needed both. In the 1970's, everyone in the corridor called her Mom.

I hope I am not being presumptuous in passing on this information, but I thought bodybagging might appreciate some kind thoughts.

[ptero]

Sorry to hear about BJ.

In high school [[CassTech) we went to the Snug, which was in the actual corner of the bldg where Traffic Jam was and completely separated physically from TJ's. The Snug was non-alcohol for the younger crowd. Hey. It was a start! Later, we went to TJ's a LOT. Twas a dive, smoky, darkish, w/pool tables and fights on weekends. I remember the traffic light in there with the working lights. Nowadays the area that was the Snug is the corner with dining booths pretty much as you walk in. WAY too upscale!

The Bronx of course had more pool tables and fights, but George was pretty good at containing it. While at Wayne I lived on West Canfield and used to go around the corner to Anderson's Garden to play the shuffleboard table - the long table with sawdust for lube... The hookers hated us - no we're not looking for a date! Then a cop was shot in there and they were all over the neighborhood looking for the bad guy - helicopters with searchlights - the whole nine yards.

Spent a lot of time at Verne's, too - behind the gas station at Forest and Woodward. That drew mainly Wayne students and wasn't really a corridor bar.

The wildest times were at the Vietnam Vets Chapter 9 place [[in the old Greenfield's restaurant on Woodward). It was mainly a bar. They had public times - and private, by invite only, times. I'm not a vet but knew some of the guys and got invites. The decor included some wild stuff [[pix from Nam mainly) unless it was cleaned up for public 'visitation'. They used to have outdoor parties with a band on the roof and m/c burnouts right at the side door.

And LOVED that pizza joint in the old house. MMmmmm great stuff.

[dookie joe]

O.K. Dookie Joe....try this one .Do you remember "Our Place Bar"
S.W.corner ,Third street,1 block south of Canfield ? I'm not positive,I think it's Calumet.
That aint to close to Wayne. in fact, it's across from the old Andersons Gardens.

I remember a bar being over there, but I don't recall the name of it. [[I didn't start hanging out in bars until I was 13-14 years old! By that time, a lot of the old places had closed or changed their names [[The Red Dog to the Corner Pub, for instance).

[mrfinewine]

Great stuff, everybody! I can confirm that there was one taxi-dancing joint still operating on Woodward as late as 1982, and quite possibly even later than that. I went there twice with buddies from high school. As I recall, it was around $4 for two [[or three?) songs worth of slow dancing and small talk with a woman who would latch on to you when you walked in. No hanky panky or offers thereof in my experience, though one friend did report a whispered proposition from his dance partner.

[MvGuy]

Sorry to hear about BJ.

In high school [[CassTech) we went to the Snug, which was in the actual corner of the bldg where Traffic Jam was and completely separated physically from TJ's. The Snug was non-alcohol for the younger crowd. Hey. It was a start! Later, we went to TJ's a LOT. Twas a dive, smoky, darkish, w/pool tables and fights on weekends. I remember the traffic light in there with the working lights. Nowadays the area that was the Snug is the corner with dining booths pretty much as you walk in. WAY too upscale!

The Bronx of course had more pool tables and fights, but George was pretty good at containing it. While at Wayne I lived on West Canfield and used to go around the corner to Anderson's Garden to play the shuffleboard table - the long table with sawdust for lube... The hookers hated us - no we're not looking for a date! Then a cop was shot in there and they were all over the neighborhood looking for the bad guy - helicopters with searchlights - the whole nine yards.

Spent a lot of time at Verne's, too - behind the gas station at Forest and Woodward. That drew mainly Wayne students and wasn't really a corridor bar.

The wildest times were at the Vietnam Vets Chapter 9 place [[in the old Greenfield's restaurant on Woodward). It was mainly a bar. They had public times - and private, by invite only, times. I'm not a vet but knew some of the guys and got invites. The decor included some wild stuff [[pix from Nam mainly) unless it was cleaned up for public 'visitation'. They used to have outdoor parties with a band on the roof and m/c burnouts right at the side door.

And LOVED that pizza joint in the old house. MMmmmm great stuff.

===============================

I spent time at Verns too, tryin to pick up those coeds... I don't remember doin very well, but sometimes on my way back home to [at that time] Royal Oak I'd take a lil love with some of the workin girls.. I remember Johnny Walkers on Woodward by ?? Warren..?? Small place on the West side of Woodward.. Is Danny on this forum, the Danny D. who I knew that lived in a garage on?? Hancock?, or Canfield? a few blocks West of Woodward...Had a banana tree in the place...right across from the campus as I remember it... A really great guy to me.... Later in the 70's I'd show up in Detroit with a load or a bag of gold and Dan D, would put me up at his place. Later, as I remember It, his daughter showed up one day [out of nowhere] and soon he moved to the berbs....6 years ago..?? 8, 10..?? I saw a post here with someone saying to Danny, something about coming back.... Wonderin if it's him...

[RickBeall]

Okay, here's a dumb question. How do you pronounce "Sabbs"? Is it like sobbing, crying, or is it like Sabbs like Dad's?