Lions - what is it exactly?

[Brainiac]

My wife had a funny comment today as we watched the game. If you put the Lions' uniforms on a good team, say - the Colts - would it turn them bad?

What is keeping the Lions in years of below average performance, and what do you see that happening now that will turn things around?

[BShea]

It's a combination of things:

1. Poor drafting, which stems from either poor scouting or executives making bad decisions from the information given to them by the scouts. Maybe both.

2. Free agents: Once a significant cycle of losing has begun, it becomes more difficult to attract difference-maker free agents. And despite a very nice stadium and practice facility, Detroit's geographic location works against it.

Keep in mind that Detroit made the playoffs five of the 10 years in the 1990s. It's only this past decade that losing has been the norm. Previously, the team was simply mediocre. Now, it's just bad. And that's a tough cycle to break. Bad drafts and failed free agent signings can set a franchise back for years.

I don't know William Clay Ford Sr. That said, I'm sure he doesn't want the Lions to lose. In today's NFL, with revenue sharing no longer covering player payroll, teams have to move tickets, merch, suites, sponsorships and anything else to keep cash coming in. So being cheap today means you will lose money. That has forced traditional skinflint bottom feeders like Cincinnati to right themselves for fear of losing money.

And there's no value in owning an NFL team as a vanity toy if it's a perpetual loser. You just get made fun of, or pitied by your millionaire/billionaire friends.

My feeling is that Ford is much like Art Rooney, the Steelers owner. Until the Rooney family found Chuck Noll, the team was a joke. He turned it around and made Pittsburgh a dynasty, and they were able to continue that with Bill Cowher [[although it looks like Mike Tomlin is a big question mark now that it's mostly his team rather that Cowher's players).

If Ford can find the right people, they can turn it around. For all the money and technology and marketing, it still takes people to win. The Lions have been devoid of the right minds to guide everything.

[HKYTWN]

Amen brother !!!!!!!! There is no better way to explain it

[Gannon]

I hate to disagree with you, Bill, but I was close with a number of Lions when my old friend Paul Butcher played for them in the mid to late 80s.

The ONLY common denominator is Bill, Sr.

I never heard Paul say anything derogatory, but I spent a lot of time at Lomas Brown's house listening to Gary James say some very curious things about how he felt treated and how demoralizing it was around the 'old man'.

Admittedly, he was a bit of a whiner, but the more sedate and intellectual James Jones balanced out his commentary quite well and proved to me that the trouble is at the very top. Rolls downhill quickly, as in MOST organizations.


Again, it is the ONLY common denominator.


On the other hand, for a short time I was coffee-buddies with Bill Jr., at the Dearborn Starbucks after saving him from a rabid Lions fan one morning...and he was SUCH a decent fellow I had trouble believing he came from the same seed.



I await the next generation taking over...then we'll see if things improve.


Cheers

[BShea]

Plenty of franchises have had bad-seed owners who meddle -- Al Davis comes to mind. Art Modell. Bob Irsay. They won and lost. They Lions have won and lost, but the losing that people have really begun to notice outside of Detroit has been the past decade. Detroit doesn't win at all, but that's only in recent years.

It still comes down to players, and getting the right ones. I don't know how much influence or control Ford Sr. has in that department.

Ford Sr. doesn't do anything on Sunday except watch. The players on the field have to execute. If you bring in poor players, or players who don't mesh as a team, then that tells me there are systemic structural problems in some parts of the organization.

Detroit spends money on players and the perks, like Ford Field and the practice facility. I don't know they have have a cheap reputation around the league, especially not like Cincinnati. I don't recall the team have a reputation for being cheap on free agents.

If Ford has his hand in every personnel decision, then I would say that's Problem No. 1, but I don't believe that to be the case, especially at his age. I'm fairly certain he gives Lewand and Co. a budget, and is probably the final arbiter on the top draft pick and marquee free-agent signings, but I have a hard time believing he's involved in choosing who to bring in. That falls on the suits.

Detroit needs better suits [[which could be the ones they have now, but we won't know for 2-3 years).

I think purely blaming Ford is too easy, and while he may have his fingers in the pudding, it's hard to believe that in his later years he's more involved in personnel than in the past, when they were at least .500 often. I do know he's been acused to being too loyal and not firing folks when they should be -- Millen -- and that's squarely on his shoulders. Millen was certainly a problem and that's been fixed. Others had their hand in this awful pot, too.

If Ford finds his Chuck Noll, the last decade will be forgiven.

* Disclosure: I'm not a Lions fan, and I don't have any particular interest personally if they win or lose. I'm a Browns fan by birth, and the only teams I actively want to see smited each Sunday are Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Denver, Dallas and, most especially, the illegal and illegitimate NFL franchise in Maryland that I refuse to call by its name.

[Gannon]

No, it is more spiritual or ethereal than all that, whether you want to believe it or not.


From what I gathered spending many a Sunday at Brown's home, it seems Bill Sr. considers his employees to be not any better than slaves [[and the gladiator/players might be considered lower than that). That attitude is passed down the ranks.


Nobody can shine in that environment, even the best of talent with the greatest coaches and the cheerleading team from heaven.


They've proven it.


Why do you think Barry Sanders walked away with time left on his contract on the way to surely marking some records in the books?

He wanted to make a clear statement and break away from this diseased organization. Sick in the HEAD...on down.


How many quarterbacks have gone on to do significant things around the league? Even my friend Butcher went on to a pretty productive career, after the Lions failed to secure him...when he made John Madden's all-star team both years he played for them?


Nah, the Lions succeed in one thing. Taking the hopes and heart of fellows thinking they have achieved their dream of playing in the NFL and dashing them to pieces...only to be hopefully picked up and healed elsewhere.


It doesn't matter how much hands-on Bill Sr. has with the team...what lack of ethics and/or morals exists within this poor rich man seems to pervade the entire institution, for as long as I've been around this town.


And I couldn't care any less about sports...it is all merely bread and circuses as far as I'm concerned...games to keep the masses occupied and distracted.

[BShea]

So you're suggesting they fumble, throw interceptions, miss tackles and block and field goals, refuse the overtime kickoff, commit costly penalties, drive through Wendy's naked, etc., because the team owner that few players ever see is a mean old man?

If they have players willing to freely lose games, or play less than their capabilities, then that simply feeds into my point that they hire the wrong players.

I know several players and some off-field personnel pretty well. I don't get that impression at all. They have a lot of long-time employees, and one would think they'd leave if working conditions were so bad. And there is a lot of churn within the ranks, too, enough that it's simply not possible to have the same sad-sack crew all the time.

These players get large checks and they play to impress a lot of people, including friends on other teams. They experience their position and head coaches every day, not the owner and not often the executives. I simply refuse to believe they're half-assing it because they dislike Ford. They're going to hustle to get free-agent cash elsewhere, if nothing else.

The culture of losing comes from losing. Ford may be a grouch out of the North Dallas Forty front office or something, but the chief problem with this franchise is selecting the wrong personnel. How many Lions go on to success elsewhere? Almost none.

And if you've never met Al Davis, then you're missing out. Ford ain't got nuthin' on Al.

[BShea]

And if ~~~~~~ bag owners with zero ethics kept teams from winning, then how in the hell did Art Modell destroy the Browns franchise by moving it elsewhere, then win a Super Bowl?

I haven't heard of criticism of Ford Sr. outside of the Lions losing, so I don't know if there's something I'm missing here. But I do know Modell was a greedy, arrogant SOB who mismanaged a team that sells out every Sunday and was losing money through his own ineptitude, but managed to still field a winner.

[Detroit Stylin]

drive through Wendy's naked, etc.

LOL.......classic.....

[Gannon]

The 'face' an organization shows the world is always remarkably like the one at the helm.



You continue to want to force this into a physical conversation, blaming specific actions on direct forces within the group. I am saying that NOBODY can rise to their fullest ability when held down by aspects of those higher in the organism. They aren't CHOOSING to perform poorly, it is as confounding to them as us, usually. There is a deeper reason, more to the story.

It doesn't work that way, but you can always spot the spiritual truth of a matter by the 'fruits' produced. The production from the Lions has always been disappointing, as long as Bill Sr. has been at the helm.

Fact that they got near .500 a few times is testimony to the talent they HAVE and had...some of the best players in the game have worn Silver and Blue, but they ONLY truly shined when they left. They came IN with hope and heart, but it was gradually drained from them.


Even our brightest star, Barry Sanders, couldn't WAIT to leave, he walked even though it was a CERTAINTY he would make the record books in a few categories. That should be enough evidence, along with the quarterbacks who blossomed under different banners.



Nah, the only common denominator is Bill Sr., he is the problem. Just because a few masochists you happen to know don't report problems, doesn't mean they aren't there. The whole culture is based around toughness and silence during pain, not unlike the military. Many suffer in silence, some expect the suffering.

You won't see revelations from either football or the military, they are only shared in private when their public guard is down. I was in a cherished position to witness that on a REGULAR basis for two years with the Lions, twenty years ago.


Spent time with these fellows with their families after the games in Lomas' house ever week. Heard a TON of stuff that would make lesser men wither. Every one of these fellows was extraordinary in their own way, although unfortunately some of them knew it all too well.


Cheers!

[Oldertimer]

you have to give high bonuses and wages to have the best talent in business [[so it is said). Thus, to get the best talent for the lions we need to DOUBLE their pay and then add on large bonuses for each game they win. Say $100,000 PER PLAYER , PER GAME that they win. That should do it. It is the law of supply and demand and $. Yes, my tongue is in my cheek.

[kenp]

I recall in 2000 we had a final home game against the Bears. If we win we make the playoffs. The Lions played awful and lost to a lousy Bears team on a desperation field goal. In my lifetime the Lions were never consistenly bad, just mediocre, we had some good moments but nothing ever great.
After that Lions loss to the Bears we hire Matt Millan, since then we have been "the" worst franchise in sports. The sad part is that everybody realized this 2-3 years into the Millen era. Fords then gives him a contract extension. Our talent is so thin we have little chance of winning again for at least a couple years. I have to blame Ford for his total incompotence, its just becoming worse as he ages.

[Danny]

Face it fellas, LIONS SUCK!

[Hamtragedy]

Who are the Lions?

[kraig]

And for anyone who has faith in Ford Jr.

"I'm willing to stake my reputation on Matt's success," said William Clay Ford Jr., the team's vice chairman.
While it was the younger Ford who contacted Millen two years ago, this time it was his father who initiated the contact a few days after the Lions' loss to the Bears.

Ain't he just a chip off the old block?

[Bong-Man]

The mistakes of the last 10 years have been obvious, especially the draft. However when I was a kid, The Bears, Eagles, Giants, Cardinals, and Saints all sucked major ass for an awful long time. Most didn't even reach .500 for almost 20 years. All have now been to the Super Bowl, and we're going to get there eventually.

I have faith in Schwartz. He gets a pass until the end of his 3rd year. It's hard to believe that winning two games is progress, but it is. Next year we win 4 or 5, then it's on to .500 an Lion glory. [[heh...no laughing)

Remember, the darkest hour is just before dawn.

[Ray1936]

I'm sorry, but it's all the result of a curse.

Tom Dempsey's 63-yard field goal that allowed New Orleans to beat the Lions in the last secod of the game placed a curse on the Detroit franchise. That happened in the 18th century during the French Revolution, or so it seems.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrxTjgFYoU8

[EastsideAl]

The curse isn't any of these things. The curse is Bubbles!!

Before Bubbles appeared on their helmets in 1961, the Lions had won 3 championships and appeared in 4 championship games in the previous decade. Since the advent of Bubbles, we all know the story: 0 championships, 0 Super Bowls, and 1 lonely playoff win.

So, you can talk about Bill Ford, or Matt Millen, or freaking Wayne Fontes or Russ Thomas, or even that brave Lion-killer Tom Dempsey, all you want, but I've got your cute little culprit right here:



So, the solution is clear, to save the Lions...
BRING BACK THE SILVER HELMETS!!

[Brainiac]

All well said. I turn them on anyway, and, amazingly a lot of others do too. And I want them to win - I don't know why...

[Downriviera]

Ever notice that the best teams have sexy cheerleaders? The Lions do not have cheerleaders.

[Jman]

If anyone is truly interested in why the Lions have been losing for the last 45 years, just keep re-reading Gannon's posts until you figure it out. Gannon is spot on.

[BShea]

I'm sorry, but this is absurd. You're suggesting that Ford Sr. is personally responsible for the team losing -- never mind six playoff appearances between 1991-1999 -- because he's a grouchy old man, or has bad mojo. Or Something.

Teams have regularly overcome far more adversity and worse owners than Ford to win, and win regularly.

1. Name me a list of players who have left Detroit to have all-pro careers elsewhere.
2. Name me a Lions coach that's gone on to be a full-time NFL head coach elsewhere.

Was Ford out of town in the 1990s?

Guys like Bill Bidwell, Mike Brown, Tex Schramm and Tom Landry were far bigger ogres, on a daily basis, than Ford Sr. is reputed to be. And if Ford has henchmen running the team who "keep the players down" somehow, then that again comes back to simply having the wrong talent in the organization.

Paul Brown was a far bigger sumbitch than anyone than the Lions have ever had running the team. Lombardi, too. And if Ford were so bad, it would generally be known around the NFL and in general. In the league, people who know who the SOBs are, and the terrible organizations.

I have a hard time believing that 60 players every week, for a decade, are so troubled by Bill Ford Sr. and the organization in general that they're emotionally and mentally distraught to the point that they're unable to perform basic football tasks.

If you want to subscribe to metaphysical theories about curses and troll owners and evil spirits or bad feng shui or whatever, fine. But the Detroit Lions lose because they draft and sign inferior talent, and they have had inferior coaching, scouting and off-field talent. It's as simple as they.

And pointing to Barry Sanders doesn't carry much water. A HOF player on an average team with bad defenses doesn't impress me. Yeah, he walked away because the organization has problems, but they're the problems you see elsewhere in the NFL.

Teams have done far worse losing over longer stretches than Detroit, and overcome it. Parity will catch up to the Lions, as well. See: Cardinals, Arizona. That team was far, far more feckless and useless during stints in three different cities, until it improved its talent base. Then it won the NFC and went to the Super Bowl.

I've been around the NFL a long time. This, too, shall pass. Detroit fans are too close to it to recognize that there's nothing unique here.

[BShea]

"How many quarterbacks have gone on to do significant things around the league?"

None.

Here's a list of all Detroit Lions quarterbacks ...

http://www.fantasyfootballchallenge....rterbacks.html

That's a sad, sad list. None of these guys did anything elsewhere. Some of them had good careers prior to coming to Detroit. Maybe a couple had OK seasons after leaving, but I'm hard-pressed to find 'em on this list. And that falls in line with failing to pick NFL-caliber talent. They couldn't make it in Detroit, and the best they did elsewhere was back-up duty.

[Novine]

Bad players selected with bad draft picks and bad trades coached by bad coaches and led by bad management overseen by a bad owner. I don't know if Bill Ford Sr. is a hands-on or hands-off owner. But he's the owner and at the end of the day, he's responsible for all of the bad that's been associated with the Lions since 1957. BShea acts like the bad times are an aberration following the success of the 90s. He's got that backwards. The Lions have been almost uniformly awful since 1957 save for a handful of good years.

[BShea]

No, I'm not suggesting that at all.

I dispute that there is some magical force at work. Bad decisions are at work. I reject Gannon's assertion that there's some malevolent spirit infecting the franchise that stems from Ford being an ogre and hiring nothing but goon henchmen, who keep the players in a mental and spiritual funk.

The 1990s show that isn't true. They lucked into getting some top players, and the result was winning and the playoffs. It wasn't like Ford's supposed evil spirit was on holiday for a decade.

The Detroit Lions have been a below-average franchise during Ford Sr.'s tenure, but far from the worst in the NFL. The record in that time is something like 268-370-13, prior to this season. Detroit has been no different than the Cardinals, Bengals, Buccaneers.

Losing breeds more losing not because of bad mojo on the owner's part, but because it's a cycle in the NFL. You're not going to get the top free agents if you're bad, and Detroit has it's geographic and cultural reputation working against it, too. Add in bad drafts, you've set the stage for what we've seen for the past decade.

Ford doesn't have the reputation as a meddling owner to the degree of an Al Davis or Art Modell. Or, worse, a Bidwell, who once fired a coach at halftime.

Ford may make bad decisions and be overly loyal, but this isn't metaphysical. It can be explained in real-world terms. It's bad personnel on and off the field. Nothing more.