How 2 cities revived their train stations and ideas for MCS.

[davewindsor]

I've always thought Suburban Station was pretty kick-ass.

http://www.bridgeandtunnelclub.com/b...1606-21-09.jpg

Thanks for the useless link I can't access:
Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /bigmap/outoftown/pennsylvania/philadelphia/centercity/suburbanstation/1606-21-09.jpg on this server.
Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

[ghettopalmetto]

Quitcher bitchin:

http://images-2.redbubble.net/img/ar...an-station.jpg

http://phillyskyline.com/500/suburbanstn_from1pp.jpg

http://www.webcircle.com/users/cobrandt/suburban.jpg

[iheartthed]

Thanks for the useless link I can't access:
Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /bigmap/outoftown/pennsylvania/philadelphia/centercity/suburbanstation/1606-21-09.jpg on this server.
Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

It works for me... Are you at work or something? Maybe they have the site blocked.

[Bearinabox]

It works for me... Are you at work or something? Maybe they have the site blocked.

I think it just doesn't like Firefox. It didn't work for me the first time either, and then I tried it in Safari and it worked.

[catch22]

I think it just doesn't like Firefox. It didn't work for me the first time either, and then I tried it in Safari and it worked.

Might be an intermittent site issue too ... works fine for me in Firefox.

[Rocko]

Kansas City and Nashville set excellent precedents for what could become of Detroit's Michigan Central. Other noteworthy examples to look at include Cincinnati and Buffalo. This has all been stated before. In some way or another, I've visited all four of these historic and significant stations. Congratulations to the Free Press for pulling together a good article [[for once) which might actually get people thinking.

Some of you may already been familiar with my plan for resurrecting MCS as an important transportation link in an expended rail transport network. It is posted below in the Quote box if you would like to take a read - many of the ideas have already been highlighted here by other forumers, a really good sign!

Buffalo Central Terminal sets a fantastic example for us in Detroit about some of the work that could be done. The question of what to do with the office tower is a good one. I say, it needs to be kept for the following reasons:

1-It's placement on the National and State Registers of Historic Places was made on the entire structure, not simply the headhouse and platforms/trainsheds. No other train station in the world has the character MCS has, thanks to the monumental and impressive office tower rising above.

2-Financial return on a restoration of the station can be made possible by property utilizing, modifying, and updating the space within the office tower.

3-Both the tower and the waiting room/concourse/arcade below are interlinked schematically and structurally. Yes, the office tower COULD be removed, but the work to do so would likely far outweigh the costs of renovation/or simple mothballing.

4-Again, the character of the structure must be considered. Take away the office tower and the facade of MCS is not so different from some other large stations around the country. While the architectural significance goes almost wholly to the lower levels, the overall context of the station it shared between the public areas below and the office tower above.

Buffalo's Central Terminal also has an office tower in addition to the passenger and mail/express areas. I'm in favor of simply mothballing the MCS office tower if no use can be found currently. In Buffalo, they simply sealed it up good by putting plexi-glass over some windows and painted boards over others.... this would work just as well at MCS, Boards painted a nice cream color over most of the window openings in the tower augmented by columns of plexi-glass covered windows to allow some natural light in.

I think that having Amtrak continue to stop [[actually, return to, since both of these cities had Amtrak service at other locations for a while) at the Union Terminals in both Kansas City and Cincinnati is am important component. While the train may not be the largest draw or use of the facility, the continued presence of rail passenger service adds something important to the story of the building and it's use. Plus, both KC and Cincinnati Union Stations have very modern platforms, which may likely be the story if MCS were ever used in a similar way...at least initially [[see my plan below).

And now, for my plan [[sorry it's long, but well thought out I think). I don't have the money, but I've been some places, seen some things, and studied the situation at hand. See the following post:

[Rocko]

Rocko's Plan:

The Michigan Central Station could once again be a hub for Detroit Transit, with some vision, some $$$, and a plan in place. It won’t be the only transportation option, but an important cog in the revitalization of transit in and out and through the Motor City.

We need to realize that the building can once again be successful as a train station, even though not in the CBD, as long as we also provide a direct and convenient link to the CBD for such passengers. MC is just over 1 mile outside of the city center. When constructed in 1913, the station sat on the right of way with Chicago to the west and the Detroit River Tunnel to the east. Also to the east, was the direct connection to the old Michigan Central Third St. Depot and freight yards. Much of this alignment remains today, covered only with vegetation. The rail alignment to Third St. continued at ground level where the Tunnel entrance descends down, then continues through a trough grade separation under Bagley, Rosa Parks, Lafayette, and Fort Street, where it begins to curve to parallel the river and more of less was built over by the enlargement of W. Jefferson in the 80s, after the remnants of FSUD and the approach viaduct were removed. By this time, the freight houses along the river were a thing of the past, too, and the tracks were trimmed back to roughly 15th St., where the present CSX alignment and NS Boat Yard line end. The tracks between MCS and the Third St. depot were removed, though the trough and road overpasses remain. This still-remaining old freight alignment is very important.

As I see it, Detroit needs a commuter rail station downtown, but that does not mean MC cannot be significant, too. We all know that the time is running out for both Joe Louis and Cobo in their current forms. Joe Louis might be replaced by a new arena near the Fox, while numerous plans are afloat to rebuild and enlarge Cobo. What if the Joe Louis parking garage was demolished, and the Northern face of Cobo demolished, and a trainshed was constructed parallel to Congress, with all stub tracks terminating near the corner of Washington Blvd and Congress St? This would be more downtown than Fort St. station by 3-4 blocks, and more central than a station near Brush Street [[old GTW Station, where the RenCen is today). What’s to say the new commuter station cannot be tied in to a redeveloped Cobo Hall? It could not be any more convenient in regard to downtown location, and would have a direct tie to the DPM/Cobo Station. Put the trainshed on the lower level and build Cobo above, or scale the north wall of Cobo away from Congress a few hundred feet and put a glass ceiling over part of the trainshed, to give it plenty of ambient lighting [[let's not copy oldie Detroit Metro Airport terminals...)

Most of this alignment is in place and with nothing built over it. Commuter trains can stop at MCS on their way into the city. The trains can then skirt the river tunnel, follow the old alignment under Fort St., then follow the old FSUD viaduct alignment behind the post office. The Joe Louis garage could be demoed when the Joe is no longer used. Cobo will be essentially rebuilt, anyhow. A bridge can carry the tracks over W. Jefferson behind Riverfront Apartments, and the Lodge Fwy.

As for MC, it can again become the Detroit terminal for Amtrak trains into an out of the city. You say, “how will Amtrak service to Pontiac, etc. be maintained with a loop out of the way to MCS?� In California, the successful Pacific Surfliner trains operate between San Diego and LA, with some continuing north to Santa Barbara. Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal is a stub ended terminal, but it is still used for these through trains. The trains operate push-pull, stay at LA for 20 minutes, the engineer hops on the cab at the other end, and the train takes off. The process is reversed for trains coming south. Michigan Amtrak trains already operate in push-pull mode. Why can’t the train follow its current route from Chicago and go straight in to MCS? It could then reverse direction, get on the Conrail alignment at Bay City Jct, access the CN at CP-Vinewood, and take the same route it already does to get there. MC gets used, and service north is retained. It would also be able to be used effectively in a start up service south to Toledo, and for any future trains which would utilize the Detroit River Tunnel to Canada. MCS would then be Detroit’s hub for Amtrak service, and a stop for every commuter train operating on the AA-Detroit line, or any other future line. Shorter “Shuttle� commuter trains could be timed to carry passengers between MCS and the downtown/COBO terminal to get people to and from the Amtrak trains, while the commuter trains on the AA line could just continue after stopping at MC toward downtown.

As for the revitalization of the MCS office tower, it can occur in incremental stages, as opportunities come forward to fill the tower with offices, etc. While the incompleteness of the upper floors of the office tower was once seen as a negative, it can now be a substantial positive. No need to tear out walls, wiring, old systems, old supplies. It’s already been done, because it was never done in the first place. It’s like a new building within the frame of an old building. Everything can be customized, because they’re starting from a nearly clean slate. Extra unoccupied room in the tower? In LA, the Metropolitan Transit Authority built a new headquarters building beside LAUPT. DDOT/SMART/the new light rail on Woodward can consolidate office space here. In Detroit, we already have our office building atop our train station. Since no building downtown currently has a public observation deck, one of the top floors of the east side of the building could be turned into such a place for viewing the powerful skyline of the city and Detroit River. Charge a reasonable fee, something like $5. This can be tied in with a portion of the station which will be stabilized but remain essentially as it is today – to remind us of where we’ve been these past 20 years, and to fulfill the niche of having our urban ruin, and urban exploration, in a safer and more controlled setting. There are plenty of places in the building that would qualify, even if the Concourse, Arcade, and main waiting room are restored. And on that note, the restoration does not necessarily need to be 100% back to 1913. Many of the columns, etc, have been weathered by the constant bombardment of the elements these past two decades, and this can remain, again, another reminder of where we’ve been.

MC can be a stop on the commuter line, and THE Detroit station for Amtrak trains. Thus, it would serve Mexicantown and Corktown neighborhood commuters, and area wide Amtrak passengers. Amtrak passengers could take the commuter shuttle downtown or to another commuter stop, but most Amtrak passengers would drive their car to MC or be dropped off. I mean, that’s pretty much how it is at other Michigan Amtrak stations. Know about the old Roosevelt Warehouse building a block to MC’s east on 15th Street at Marantette St.? It’s been abandoned for years, with as many windows broken as MC has. I see parking garage written all over it. Insert parking garage decks, as in the Michigan Theatre. Suddenly you have the prettiest garage in Detroit, serving commuters and passengers every day. Put a pedestrian tunnel under 15th St. into MC’s east side. It can have moving walkways if you like, and escalators up onto the main floor of MC at the east entrance.

Restore the station’s public areas. Chicago’s Union Station has a busy food court... MC can have one too. Gift Shops, news stands. Open the ticket windows for Amtrak and commuter passengers. Restore seating in the concourse. Restore the great hall [[waiting room), but rent it out for weddings, company meetings, events, etc. Other big city train stations do this. We have precedents many in other places.

Although the trainsheds were demolished in 2000, the platforms remain, and the track areas were simply paved with asphalt. Relaying new track would not be a problem, nor would erecting modern style platform canopies....unless...

Anyone familiar with the Grand Rapids area might know that there used to be a Union Terminal near downtown to serve the Pere Marquette, Pennsylvania, and New York Central. Today, it sits under the US-131 freeway, and the station was demoed in the late 50's in preparation for the freeway build. The large late 1800s glass and steel frame trainshed was taken apart piece by piece and moved to 28th Street for use as a lumber warehouse. Although it’s been taken apart again, it is now safely in storage in the Grand Rapids area. Wouldn’t it be cool to re-erect the Grand Rapids trainshed behind MC as a way to utilize pieces of two of the state’s grandest train stations? We’d need a trainshed anyway, and a large one with lots of light and protection from the elements would be the best.

In its active days, MCS passengers accessed the train platforms from the concourse via the underground tunnel, which took them to stairs and ramps up to their appropriate track. What kind of visual appeal would that have to fix up the tunnel, so as people walk up to their train, they come up to see a huge glass and steel frame trainshed above and brand new platforms, etc.?

In one stroke, we’ve reopened MC and found important realistic, valuable uses for it. We’ve got a grand train station for intercity passengers. We’ve got a facility that can handle an expansion and the current and future capacity. We’ve got a new downtown commuter terminal. No more #53 DDOT Woodward bus transfer from New Center to a bus to get downtown. No major demolition of buildings that wasn’t already going to be done. The alignment is already there.

I have more to say about MC, it's placement, and the theory of the second man. More on that another time.

[mcsdetroitfriend]

Great ideas! The only concern I have for you is the fact that three people own that site. The building: Manny Maroun, The tracks: Canadian Pacific Railway and the area under the tracks [[tunnel included) is owned by the city of Detroit.

So if it's possible to get everyone's cooperation on the project, then the feasibility is there.

[gregster]

This thread proves that the future of MCS is always a lively discussion. And I enjoy hearing the discussion of Matty, Amtrak, Corktown, and all of the other variables that come into the equation. Like many people here, I have been all over the world and marveled at the use of grand, historic train stations, many of which are busier today than ever before. Unfortunately, there are only a handful of really busy train corridors in the US, and Detroit does not lie on one of them. I sensed a year ago [[just around the time Obama/Biden were elected) that there might be a renewed interest in US passenger train service, but it seems the amount of fed funds being directed towards rail still pale in comparison to highway spending. So, as someone earlier noted, we continue to fund the most unsustainable methods of transport.

One attractive quality of MCS is the direct tunnel link to Canada. This tunnel could be used for a commuter line for Windsor citizens, and for a non-stop train to Toronto. This is radical, but imagine if the new Red Wings stadium were tastefully built in the immediate proximity of MCS [[so that it managed to blend in more with the area). Our friends in Windsor could take the train over on game nights [[make passport control seamless), grab dinner in Corktown or Mexicantown, then stroll over to the stadium. Sure, it's cold in the winter, but hockey fans are tough.

[tatortrumpet]

One thing I don't think many people realize is that the MCS is built on one of the only rail beds where five major trunklines intersect. Given that this is the case, if people would push for it, the MCS could indeed be turned into a viable rail station again. The problem is pushing for it. A lot of people don't see any value in rail transit, despite the fact that it's just as fast as cars [[and in some cases, faster), directly links most major cities in the US, has the potential to use a fraction of the fuel a car does [[per passenger), and is often less expensive than driving or flying.

As an example, a one-way ticket from Detroit to Chicago via Amtrak is $51.00 [[this is leaving on a Friday during non-peak hours). Drive from Detroit to Chicago and you're going to burn that much in gasoline and food along the way. The return trip is the same price, leaving Sunday morning.

Move the Amtrak main terminal to the MCS, and turn the line that heads north to the old Amtrak station into a local light-rail line for folks who wish to use it. Revive the major rail lines that run through the MCS, next. Provide a People Mover link from the MCS straight downtown, getting off at Campus Martius Park, and heading north along Woodward to provide the planned light rail line that they have been discussing to service the downtown core.

Of course, all of this is theory. What we need is someone with the willpower to make it happen.

[Chuck_MI]

mcs... I don't remember a casino bid for Maroun? Maybe he was rejected early on... weren't there something like 9 serious bidders?

Among the losers were Steve Wynn [[Mirage), Don Barden and Donald Trump.

I also remember that Ontario had a rule that none of their Casino Windsor operators could be bidders... which is why Circus Circus [[later became Madalay Bay) opted out of their partnership there with Harrah's, and they became majority owner of MotorCity before their merger with MGM [[and subsequent sale of MotorCity to Marion Ilitch).

This is correct. People are confusing Don Barden with this Maroun clown because of the close physical proximity of the Central Station to Barden's proposed casino in the river front fields next to River Front Towers behind the post office. Maroun never sought to own a Detroit casino.

[Chuck_MI]

The only reason Moroun is even sitting on it is to cock block efforts to reuse the old rail tunnel.

You hit the nail on the head with this statement.
Government agencies should put the cock block on this moron by levying fines for inadequately maintaining an urban blight.

[Whitehouse]

Take a look at this link! There's a Youtube film made inside the MCS in 1987! The station was still looking in a pretty good shape. They were concerned about waterdamage to the ceiling.... Well, it went all downhill from there.

Link.

Be aware!! There is a gruesome image present of a homeless man buried under ice! Just a warning beforehand.

[[For those who don't want to be confronted with that here's the Youtube movie.)

Here's another clip of the MSC but from the spring of spiring of 1999.

[mcsdetroitfriend]

That's not MCS, sorry....that's across the street at the Roosevelt Warehouse....that building can go

[Whitehouse]

It is? Then why is that clip announced as "Michigan Central Station - 1987"? The second clip however indeed is the MCS.

That's not MCS, sorry....that's across the street at the Roosevelt Warehouse....that building can go

I believe I can see the difference between MCS and Roosevelt Warehouse.

[EastsideAl]

I think he meant the frozen homeless man, which is a very well-known image around here and was taken in the Roosevelt Warehoue - although many seem to associate it with MCS for some reason. The videos do indeed appear to be of MCS. The 1987 one is the way I remember the place.

[PQZ]

That's not MCS, sorry....that's across the street at the Roosevelt Warehouse....that building can go

So, I'm curious. What is the excuse Maroun gave you for why he and his firm have not fully secured the Roosevelt warehouse? In the past you have lain the blame of vandalism and decay of the MCS at the feet of the City saying that it does not do an adequate job of securing the portion of the complex it owns - that damage to the MCS is an outcome of City actions, not the actions of Maroun.....the trespass at Rossevelt is squarely at the feet of Maroun / DIBC.

He can afford a suite to entertain you and others at Ford Field but he can't afford to secure a building?

Perhaps it was just a harmless oversight that he and his team neglected to provide you and others with adequate protection when cleaning out the MCS. BTW, the six separate times I entered the MCS during as investigation of its suitability as a police HQ, the DIBC representatives took pains to ensure we were aware of the presence of hazardous materials. I find it hard to believe they "forgot" that fact in the interim...

[jjw]

I always thought of the old adage, "Build it and they will come" in regards to the train station. It's a magnificent structure and would make a profound statement both for the city and the state if it was to be conquered and redone. Great press and a great statement to the world: "We're not done yet".
Baltimore's is a go for a boutique hotel and total reno for our station. Now come on. Little Baltimore is doing it. Why not Detroit?

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/200...n-penn-station

Funding approved:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/business...,6933154.story

[EastsideAl]

I was just in Baltimore a couple of weeks ago, which seems to have a bunch of things Detroit can't seem to get together. Like some pretty nice shopping/entertainment/restaurant districts housed in renovated older buildings, including several repurposed older buildings from the city's past as an industrial port. A significant amount of recent residential construction in the central city. A light rail system. And, as you have noted, a beautifully renovated train station that looks to become the center of a newly revitalized district. It was crowded in downtown Baltimore, with traffic and some difficulty parking, on the Sunday night I was there. All with similar demographics to Detroit, similar problems, and another major city with more attractions about an hour away.

[Whitehouse]

Sorry about the miscommunication. It was not clear you were referring to that single picture. Anyway, the warning still applies to that first link.

[Whitehouse]

More interesing clips. The MCS has been used multiple times as a movie backdrop. Famed director Michael Bay has used the lot for the movies Transformers and the Island.

But none of these movies did the building more justice than Naqoyqatsi, the third of the qatsi movies. Here's a clip. The magnificent score is by Philip Glass with Yo-Yo Ma on Cello.

Another movie in which the MCS feature is in the opening credits of the movie Four Brothers. Three minutes into the clip we see actor Mark Wahlberg driving along in Detroit He passes the MCS and various other landmarks along the way.



Finally Son of Detroit Marshall Bruce Mathers III a.k.a. Eminem pays a visit to this maginificent structure.

Somewhat off topic but no less interesting is the most famous part of the qatsi movies, from Koyaanisqatsi, this is Pruitt Igoe. An apartment block with an intersting past...


And finally a link that matters!
http://www.savemichigancentral.com/

[mcsdetroitfriend]

It is? Then why is that clip announced as "Michigan Central Station - 1987"? The second clip however indeed is the MCS.




I believe I can see the difference between MCS and Roosevelt Warehouse.

Sorry I thought you meant MCS was universal for your whole post. But yes the 1987 video is wonderful, Garnet Cousins, the man in the video is an amazing person. Very generous in his wealth of knowledge on the topic and in architecture in general. He wrote a great 2-part piece for Train magazine on MCS, as well as his college thesis for his Masters degree.

[Whitehouse]

10 mistakes from the past [[and an 11th that could be corrected.)