How 2 cities revived their train stations and ideas for MCS.

[ghettopalmetto]

Point is simply that thinking Mannt Moroun would, should, or could do this on his own is inaccurate.

Manny Maroun is one of the few people who *could* do a renovation on his own. He won't do anything, though, and nothing is going to happen with the MCS building until he dies. Maroun doesn't care so much about the building itself, as he does controlling the rail access to Canada that would cut into his trucking and bridge operations.

[andybsg]

I think the city should take this structure back from Moroun and invite the preservation community, the business community and other "stakeholders" together to come up with a real plan.

I'd like to see it have rail traffic to Chicago and Toledo again, mothballing the upper stories for a while. I was never fond of the Amshak at Baltimore.

Step in the right direction. The upper floors would need major construction work to insure the safety of the passengers [[and trains) using the station.

[mcsdetroitfriend]

I'm pretty sure all of the concerns from HVAC to securing and stabilizing any structural problems would be fully addressed. One would hope a child wouldn't be hired as a contractor.

[davewindsor]

Point is simply that thinking Mannt Moroun would, should, or could do this on his own is inaccurate.

I think he could do it, but why would he?? The building couldn't get rented before it was heavily vandalized, so now he's gonna restore it without a tenant so it will be empty like it was before? Honestly, if you had a billion dollars, would you blow a third of that restoring a building without any realistic return on your investment? Would you ever invest your life savings into something knowing you'd never get it back? If I had a casino license or a lease guaranteed by a government agency I would, but without that? So, as for should and would he, I say absolutely not. No one in their right mind "would" or "should", even though they "could".

[EastsideAl]

A lot of the tower was never used in the first place. In fact, many of the upper floors were never fully finished and had no internal walls. The market for offices in that area never really developed as the original developers had envisioned. So it is not too much of a stretch to say that the tower could be saved and, at least for the moment, large parts of it could be sealed off and left vacant.

Having just returned from a couple of weeks trip in Washington, Baltimore, Richmond VA and Durham NC, I am once again shocked at what an incredibly poor job we have done here in Detroit with historic preservation and productive reuse. There really seems to be almost no imagination or vision at all among people with money and people in power in this area.

[ghettopalmetto]

Having just returned from a couple of weeks trip in Washington, Baltimore, Richmond VA and Durham NC, I am once again shocked at what an incredibly poor job we have done here in Detroit with historic preservation and productive reuse. There really seems to be almost no imagination or vision at all among people with money and people in power in this area.

Oh, what do you know? You don't work for DEGC, therefore, your opinion doesn't count. Detroit does a FANTASTIC job with historic preservation. Don't believe me? PQZ will give you all the excruciating details [[and then berate you for not having his job.)!

[Detroitnerd]

Oh, what do you know? You don't work for DEGC, therefore, your opinion doesn't count. Detroit does a FANTASTIC job with historic preservation. Don't believe me? PQZ will give you all the excruciating details [[and then berate you for not having his job.)!

Yup. The proof is in the experience. Heck, I'm still dazzled by the streetwall on Park Avenue South and I haven't lived in New York for seven years!

I think our leading local lights count on Detroiters not being well-traveled so that their cries of "this is the best we can do" or "that is not feasible" seem more plausible.

[mcsdetroitfriend]

A lot of the tower was never used in the first place. In fact, many of the upper floors were never fully finished and had no internal walls. The market for offices in that area never really developed as the original developers had envisioned. So it is not too much of a stretch to say that the tower could be saved and, at least for the moment, large parts of it could be sealed off and left vacant.

The top five floors of the office tower were never completed. Well they were to a point - the walls were painted the ceilings were installed, electrical work was done, the floor was also installed - but they were never partitioned or decorated. That was the case for four of the floors until you get to the penthouse level which was never even drywalled [[or the 1912/13 equivalent), and only crude wood flooring was lain.

And yes davewindsor you're exactly right. Just because he fixes it up doesn't mean he'll get a return on the investment. What really should happen [[and should've happened from the moment he bought the place) is it should be sealed airtight around the main floors and the stairwells leading up stairs, so it can be protected somewhat from people and the elements so when the time comes and the market or approvals come in the building can be fixed up and made great again!

[PQZ]

I'm pretty sure all of the concerns from HVAC to securing and stabilizing any structural problems would be fully addressed. One would hope a child wouldn't be hired as a contractor.

Maroun had no problems having children clean out hazardous materials for free, so I am not sure that is a valid hope.

[mcsdetroitfriend]

Maroun had no problems having children clean out hazardous materials for free, so I am not sure that is a valid hope.

The idea was nice, but they shoulda stayed outside and planted flowers [[which they did), not been inside the building. But lets stay on topic and not open that can of worms again

[PQZ]

The idea was nice, but they shoulda stayed outside and planted flowers [[which they did), not been inside the building. But lets stay on topic and not open that can of worms again

Quite right. Let us continue to ignore the flagrant violations of local, state and federal laws and contractual obligations of the past. I am sure DIBC / CenTra / Maroun have nothing but the best intentions for the future. Can't jeopardize our chance at a Lions suite!

[Detroitnerd]

Quite right. Let us continue to ignore the flagrant violations of local, state and federal laws and contractual obligations of the past. I am sure DIBC / CenTra / Maroun have nothing but the best intentions for the future. Can't jeopardize our chance at a Lions suite!

Shove off, PQZ. The adults are talking.

[mcsdetroitfriend]

Quite right. Let us continue to ignore the flagrant violations of local, state and federal laws and contractual obligations of the past. I am sure DIBC / CenTra / Maroun have nothing but the best intentions for the future. Can't jeopardize our chance at a Lions suite!

No no, stay on topic here....and for the record i dont care about a lion's suite that was a chance to meet face to face with the man and talk about the matter at hand

[Bearinabox]

Shove off, PQZ. The adults are talking.

What's your beef with that post?

[Funaho]

And yes davewindsor you're exactly right. Just because he fixes it up doesn't mean he'll get a return on the investment. What really should happen [[and should've happened from the moment he bought the place) is it should be sealed airtight around the main floors and the stairwells leading up stairs, so it can be protected somewhat from people and the elements so when the time comes and the market or approvals come in the building can be fixed up and made great again!

While we've all had some great ideas of what would be "nice" to have at the MCS location, none of it is financially viable at this point, nor will it be any time in the foreseeable future. I know it sucks, but the glory days of the MCS are gone and they aren't coming back. The area around the station never developed into what was envisioned when the MCS was built and it never will at this point. It's all low- to medium-density commercial and residential, and there's plenty of space available already. Nobody in their right mind is going to want to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to repair the building and then sit on it, paying taxes and maintenance/security costs for 30 years in the hope that there will be a use for it again someday....maybe. The only reason Moroun is even sitting on it is to cock block efforts to reuse the old rail tunnel.

[EastsideAl]

I think our leading local lights count on Detroiters not being well-traveled so that their cries of "this is the best we can do" or "that is not feasible" seem more plausible.

That must be it, because after several years of traveling to what are supposed to be some of America's most forlorn cities, I have yet to see an imaginationless and lifeless mess like Detroit.

Just this past week I was in Richmond VA and Durham NC. These are both cities that have suffered the major loss of their core industries in recent decades, that are relatively poorer than the areas around them, with higher unemployment and more crime than nearby towns, and that have sizable minority populations. They are both about an eighth the size of Detroit, and yet Detroit has nothing that can compare with the transformed old tobacco warehouses of the River District or the Tredegar Iron Works, which has been turned into a Civil War museum, in Richmond, and nothing like the American Tobacco campus or Brightleaf Square areas in Durham, both also formed out of once-abandoned tobacco facilities. You really get a feel after a while in cities like these for what a totally piss-poor job Detroit has done along these lines.

Instead, what did we do in Detroit? Well, we tore down the Civil War-era Monroe Block in the dead of night for a shopping mall that still hasn't been built 20+ years later, blew up the second largest department store in America and replaced it with a hole full of rubble, have a sports/theater/entertainment district that is about a block deep behind which now lie blocks of empty lots, have historic auto factories around the city sitting in ruins [[except for the T-Plex, which was saved FROM the neglect of our local officials by volunteers, but is still only open 2 days a month for 6 months of the year), had one of the most beautiful 19th century housing districts in the midwest "historically renovated" into a prairie full of boarded-up wrecks, have a bunch of architecturally beautiful and important office buildings and other public buildings vacant, languishing, and all too often open to trespass, thievery, and vandalism, and, of course, a beautiful train station that is owned by a billionaire who has been allowed to let it turn into one of the nation's most infamous eyesores.

This is not to say that positive things haven't happened in Detroit, and aren't happening now, just to say that a couple of redeveloped hotels, a skating rink, some franchise restaurants, 3 life-sucking casinos, and some bike paths aren't nearly enough. We have fallen far short of our potential, as can be seen when one compares Detroit to pretty much every other major city, and many minor ones, in the country.

[bailey]

These are both cities that have suffered the major loss of their core industries in recent decades, that are relatively poorer than the areas around them, with higher unemployment and more crime than nearby towns, and that have sizable minority populations. They are both about an eighth the size of Detroit,

...you don't think that maybe that fact has something to do with Detroit's problems? As is often pointed out, one could fit the entire city of Boston and its 600,000+ people inside just the vacant portions of Detroit. Until that changes, nothing will change.

Heck, if Detroit WERE 1/8th it's own size, the projects of the last 10 years would have made detroit an almost pristine city. New stadiums, the Book and ft shelby, the new restaurants and bars, the river walk, the Superbowl, the casinos, the new campus martiuis....etc. The problem of reality is that 7/8 of the city still has yet to see any improvement.

[English]

Having just returned from a couple of weeks trip in Washington, Baltimore, Richmond VA and Durham NC, I am once again shocked at what an incredibly poor job we have done here in Detroit with historic preservation and productive reuse. There really seems to be almost no imagination or vision at all among people with money and people in power in this area.

I travel quite a bit for work, too. Just came back from Philadelphia. I guess the Detroit equivalent to Reading Terminal Market is Eastern Market, but I wondered why we couldn't have sort of an "Eastern Market West" in an old building downtown.

And the Philadelphia Macy's, all decorated for Christmas, made me cry. It was absolutely beautiful. I cried... and I was furious that I never, EVER got to see OUR Hudson's building like that, just because I was born too late. No one my age [[32) or younger has any memories of the glory days of Detroit... save for the MCS.

My sister, who is 29, and I remember taking our dad there when his father died. She was 5. I was 8. It was 1985. And we remember looking up... we remember the awe of being in such a beautiful place. I suppose that it was in its dying days then, but in my childish memory, I don't remember that.

Almost 20 years later, I ended up in Grand Central Station for the first time. I was hoping to have ten times the awe-filled experience. I did not.

Maybe it's time for us dreamers to face facts. The majority of those in the city and in the suburbs don't give a d*mn about what becomes of our monumental architecture. Now that there's no "Super Bowl" in the near future to plan for, and the economy may never be the same, we might have to re-envision what Detroit could be like in the 21st century. Maybe the phoenix-like nature of our fair metropolis isn't a horrible thing... after all, we've come back several times before.

Maybe we'll never see the glory of the MCS again. Maybe we can plan for new glories that will make people marvel by mid-century.

[andybsg]

I travel quite a bit for work, too. Just came back from Philadelphia. I guess the Detroit equivalent to Reading Terminal Market is Eastern Market, but I wondered why we couldn't have sort of an "Eastern Market West" in an old building downtown.

And the Philadelphia Macy's, all decorated for Christmas, made me cry. It was absolutely beautiful. I cried... and I was furious that I never, EVER got to see OUR Hudson's building like that, just because I was born too late. No one my age [[32) or younger has any memories of the glory days of Detroit... save for the MCS.

My sister, who is 29, and I remember taking our dad there when his father died. She was 5. I was 8. It was 1985. And we remember looking up... we remember the awe of being in such a beautiful place. I suppose that it was in its dying days then, but in my childish memory, I don't remember that.

Almost 20 years later, I ended up in Grand Central Station for the first time. I was hoping to have ten times the awe-filled experience. I did not.

Maybe it's time for us dreamers to face facts. The majority of those in the city and in the suburbs don't give a d*mn about what becomes of our monumental architecture. Now that there's no "Super Bowl" in the near future to plan for, and the economy may never be the same, we might have to re-envision what Detroit could be like in the 21st century. Maybe the phoenix-like nature of our fair metropolis isn't a horrible thing... after all, we've come back several times before.

Maybe we'll never see the glory of the MCS again. Maybe we can plan for new glories that will make people marvel by mid-century.

Sooo, you say you never saw it, but then you say that you did. Which is it?

[cman710]

I think English meant that he/she had not seen Hudson's, but did see MCS, but I am not certain.

[Stosh]

I think English meant that he/she had not seen Hudson's, but did see MCS, but I am not certain.

I'll vote for this interpretation.

And my experience was exactly the reverse. I never saw MCS while operating, and saw Hudson's many times.

[English]

I think English meant that he/she had not seen Hudson's, but did see MCS, but I am not certain.

Bingo. Sorry for not being clear. What I meant to say was that the sense of awe I felt 2 weeks ago while at the Philly Macy's transported me back to that experience of taking my Dad to the MCS to catch his train to St. Louis 25 years ago. In both cases, I felt awe over how beautiful the structure was... and in the case of Philly last month, considerable anger that my generation of Detroiters had been cheated out of seeing a century-old department store all decked out for Christmas, an experience that native Philadelphians [[and others from old cities) take for granted.

[Fury13]

Bingo. Sorry for not being clear. What I meant to say was that the sense of awe I felt 2 weeks ago while at the Philly Macy's transported me back to that experience of taking my Dad to the MCS to catch his train to St. Louis 25 years ago. In both cases, I felt awe over how beautiful the structure was... and in the case of Philly last month, considerable anger that my generation of Detroiters had been cheated out of seeing a century-old department store all decked out for Christmas, an experience that native Philadelphians [[and others from old cities) take for granted.

Yeah, it is sad and frustrating. I was just in Philly too. I also visited the Macy's there and enjoyed the old-time department store atmosphere. It's a great store... it reminded me of Hudson's, which I did get to see as a kid [[although Macy's seems to be clueless about creative window displays). Philly's Macy's is the former Wanamaker's, which was to Philadelphia as Field's was to Chicago and Hudson's was to Detroit. And the Reading Terminal Market was fantastic -- patronized by throngs of locals and tourists alike. The thing that got me about Philadelphia, though [[besides the vitality of the close-in neighborhoods) was the fact that the residents have preserved their incredible City Hall -- a really breathtaking building. Seeing that made me so disgruntled that Detroit lost a similar [[albeit smaller) edifice almost 50 years ago in the name of "progress." Philadelphia has a wonderful old train station too, still used today -- 30th Street Station. I think that Detroit could take a few pages from Philly's book.

[iheartthed]

Yeah, it is sad and frustrating. I was just in Philly too. I also visited the Macy's there and enjoyed the old-time department store atmosphere. It's a great store... it reminded me of Hudson's, which I did get to see as a kid [[although Macy's seems to be clueless about creative window displays). Philly's Macy's is the former Wanamaker's, which was to Philadelphia as Field's was to Chicago and Hudson's was to Detroit. And the Reading Terminal Market was fantastic -- patronized by throngs of locals and tourists alike. The thing that got me about Philadelphia, though [[besides the vitality of the close-in neighborhoods) was the fact that the residents have preserved their incredible City Hall -- a really breathtaking building. Seeing that made me so disgruntled that Detroit lost a similar [[albeit smaller) edifice almost 50 years ago in the name of "progress." Philadelphia has a wonderful old train station too, still used today -- 30th Street Station. I think that Detroit could take a few pages from Philly's book.

Philly's City Hall is one of my favorite buildings still in existence today.

A major similarity of Philly's train station to Detroit's is that they both sit just outside of the central business districts. I think 30th Street Station is proof that Detroit doesn't need to go reinventing the wheel with MCS to make it work.

[ghettopalmetto]

I've always thought Suburban Station was pretty kick-ass.

http://www.bridgeandtunnelclub.com/b...1606-21-09.jpg