How 2 cities revived their train stations and ideas for MCS.

Stosh · November-30-09, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

The problem that Cincinnati is having, though, is now they don't really have a suitable location for a train station as part of the new "3C" line that is awaiting federal funds.

http://www.americantowns.com/oh/cinc...il-plan-216405

Since Detroit is in the long-term plans for the Ohio Hub rail network, it would behoove the powers-that-be [[are you reading this, Mr. Bing?) to plan for an appropriate location for a train station. The Amshack on Milwaukee couldn't possibly be expected to support the multiple daily trains to Chicago and Toledo, as well as commuter rail to Ann Arbor [[and elsewhere).

I for one would love to take a high speed rail to Chicago. And if one is parking long term, it would really need a more secure site. There's room for that at MCS. And other things.

MichMatters · November-30-09, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

Here's one article from the Detroit Free Press about Matty wanting to turn MCS into a casino, but you have to pay to view it and I don't have a membership. I know I saw an article somewhere where it quoted Matty saying he applied for a casino license for the MCS and was denied, but I can't find it. Could be Crain's.

^ a b c Aguilar, Louis [[4-8-2008).Michigan Central Depot owners say 'Roll 'em!'.The Detroit News. Retrieved on July 29, 2008.

The quote was from this Wikopedia section

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Central_Station

Convention Center and Casino - Ambassador Bridge owner Manuel J. "Matty" Moroun,[2] proposed that Michigan Central Station be restored as the centerpiece of a new convention center, possibly combined with a casino. Such a project could cost $1.2 billion, including $300 million to restore the station. Dan Stamper, president of Detroit International Bridge, noted that the station should have been used as one of the city's casinos.[3]

That doesn't even imply that he made a formal request for a license. It even says "possibly" combined with a casino, which makes me think that if there was a casino plan, it never went further than Matty and Stamper's noggins. The point in all of this is the ridiculousness in blaming the state for not giving them something that only they can request. If anything, that article points to the casino idea being an after-thought, and something that Matty never formally made known to the people that would consider granting him a casino license.

**mcsdetroitfriend** · November-30-09, 10:37 PM

Well considering DIBC owns the warehouse nextdoor and they have a demolition permit they're hanging on to I would imagine parking would go on that lot, it's a big enough plot and possible to build a structure or do underground parking, the basement at MCS is 24 feet underground so that would be plausible too.

MichMatters · November-30-09, 11:08 PM

Who or what was that post in reply to, mcsdetroitfriend?

**casscorridor** · November-30-09, 11:28 PM

The Michigan Central Station can and should be restored to its intended purpose: a train station.

The tower could become a hub for federal, regional, and local transportation and security agencies. Such tenents could include FTA, Amtrack, DDOT, SMART, Detroit Police, Border and Customs agency, etc.

The international rail crossing should be expanded and include passanger rail [[to Toronto & Montreal via Windsor).

The surrounding neighborhoods are not "sketchy." It is located between Hubbard-Richard/Mexicantown to the west and Corktown to the east, two of Detroit's best neighborhoods.

A rail link should be corespond with the station. A Michigan Ave rail line could diverge from Michigan ave and go under the MCS and then return back to Michigan ave. Streetcar links could be restored with the rebuilding of the Vernor streetcar and the 12th/14th streetcar. Various DDOT and SMART routs could begin serving the station directy at the door.

With all this activity, the surrounding neighborhood's redevelopmend would be accelerated. This could bring more impitus to the idea of freeway removal/adaptation-- completely removing the freeways that seperate neighborhoods or trying to minimize their effdcts by building over them or adding new bridges so less streets are cut off. The MC5 was built with the assumption it would be part of Downtown eventually. There dould be a seemless connection if the freeway and transit problems were solved.

**mcsdetroitfriend** · November-30-09, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by MichMatters

Who or what was that post in reply to, mcsdetroitfriend?

Sorry I was replying on my phone and for whatever reason it wouldn't let me quote...but that last thing about the "parking" was replying to you!

**davewindsor** · November-30-09, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by MichMatters

That doesn't even imply that he made a formal request for a license. It even says "possibly" combined with a casino, which makes me think that if there was a casino plan, it never went further than Matty and Stamper's noggins. The point in all of this is the ridiculousness in blaming the state for not giving them something that only they can request. If anything, that article points to the casino idea being an after-thought, and something that Matty never formally made known to the people that would consider granting him a casino license.

You're not listening. That's just one article back in 2008. I've seen many more which clearly stated it, but they were removed. He said he wanted it as a casino years ago and applied and was denied. Then he brought the issue back up in this article in 2008. Whether it's a head nod or not is irrelevant because they never called him out on it by granting it. If the Governor even offered him a casino license if he restored it just verbally [[even if it was just to call him out to see if he was full or it or not), I'd think otherwise. But, she never did. The State is very clear on there being only three casinos in Detroit and no more.

**mcsdetroitfriend** · November-30-09, 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

You're not listening. That's just one article back in 2008. I've seen many more which clearly stated it, but they were removed. He said he wanted it as a casino years ago and applied and was denied. Then he brought the issue back up in this article in 2008. Whether it's a head nod or not is irrelevant because they never called him out on it by granting it. If the Governor even offered him a casino license if he restored it just verbally [[even if it was just to call him out to see if he was full or it or not), I'd think otherwise. But, she never did. The State is very clear on there being only three casinos in Detroit and no more.

DIBC had a full color plan made up for the entire Roosevelt park/MCS casino idea too it was pretty interesting to see how they made everything work out, shame it wasn't approved it was very modern and "Vegas"

**Gistok** · December-01-09, 12:43 AM

GP... I like that name "Amshack" for the New Center station.... it has all the charm of a Subway Restaurant... but without the gilitz...

**Red Devil** · December-01-09, 12:50 AM

Here in the Mile High city, the old Union Station serves as an Amtrak station and as the nexus for the light rail lines. Its going to get 200M in upgrades as part of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FasTracks

**Gistok** · December-01-09, 12:53 AM

mcs... I don't remember a casino bid for Maroun? Maybe he was rejected early on... weren't there something like 9 serious bidders?

Among the losers were Steve Wynn [[Mirage), Don Barden and Donald Trump.

I also remember that Ontario had a rule that none of their Casino Windsor operators could be bidders... which is why Circus Circus [[later became Madalay Bay) opted out of their partnership there with Harrah's, and they became majority owner of MotorCity before their merger with MGM [[and subsequent sale of MotorCity to Marion Ilitch).

**mcsdetroitfriend** · December-01-09, 12:58 AM

Other than the few news articles I saw online [[summaries). The plans were labeled something along the lines of casino/police station. It was like a 20 year master plan

and "amshack" is awesome, word of the week!

**douglasm** · December-01-09, 07:04 AM

But again, in Denver you're talking about a head building only.

andybsg · December-01-09, 08:19 AM

A govt entity will be required to make this work. The risk is too high for a private citizen or company to do on its own.

Stosh · December-01-09, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by andybsg

A govt entity will be required to make this work. The risk is too high for a private citizen or company to do on its own.

And given the current funding climate for government entities, the risk might be too high for them as well. Although a tax break for redevelopment would be attractive for some.

andybsg · December-01-09, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Stosh

And given the current funding climate for government entities, the risk might be too high for them as well. Although a tax break for redevelopment would be attractive for some.

I do not think that a tax break alone could make this a sensible endeavor. The costs to do this will be very very high, and Detroit is a rough market to justify that sort of expenditure. It needs to be some sort of a destination development, since it exists all by its lonesome out of the center of town and away from the vast majority of any sort of attractions.

PQZ · December-01-09, 08:54 AM

Kilpatrick asked DEGC to look at the cost to rehab the MCS as the new Police HQ. Three / four months of kicking tires and the estimate was in the $300 mm - $375 mm range. KK did not like that and had Walt Watkins who at the time was the P&DD director & had never rehabbed a building look at it with the Building Authority. Two weeks later they said it could be done for $180 million with some wacky Maroun-led financing scheme. Needless to say that plan died.

I think the $375 mm is a reasonable number to work from as a renovation / redevelopment cost for the tower and the concourse / station portion. But thats just my professional opinion as project manager for several historic restorations who was part of the team that did the three / four month evaluation.

**ghettopalmetto** · December-01-09, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by PQZ

I think the $375 mm is a reasonable number to work from as a renovation / redevelopment cost for the tower and the concourse / station portion. But thats just my professional opinion as project manager for several historic restorations who was part of the team that did the three / four month evaluation.

Considering:

*the costs of Comerica Park and Ford Field, which are only used a fraction of the time

*that GM paid $375 million to renovate OCP Headquarters

*the figures being floated to renovate/expand Cobo Center, which sees significant use only once a year

*the amount of coin MDOT throws at freeways

I think that $375 million [[assuming that's an accurate figure) is a reasonable price to pay to restore one of the grandest works of civic architecture in the nation. Financing, of course, is a different story.

andybsg · December-01-09, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Considering:

*the costs of Comerica Park and Ford Field, which are only used a fraction of the time

*that GM paid $375 million to renovate OCP Headquarters

*the figures being floated to renovate/expand Cobo Center, which sees significant use only once a year

*the amount of coin MDOT throws at freeways

I think that $375 million [[assuming that's an accurate figure) is a reasonable price to pay to restore one of the grandest works of civic architecture in the nation. Financing, of course, is a different story.

So again,a govt entity will need to be involved to make this happen.

**Detroitnerd** · December-01-09, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by andybsg

So again,a govt entity will need to be involved to make this happen.

Sure, governments must subsidize travel, and we often end up with whatever the government subsidizes.

IIRC, A study was done about 10 years ago charting government subsidies for different modes of travel. They found that in 20 or 30 years:

Subsidies to airlines tripled.

Subsidies to roads doubled.

Subsidies to rail travel fell by about one-half.

We're going to spend money either way, because no transportation network ever yields clear profit unless it's a trust or monopoly. The point is clear: We are subsidizing the most wasteful modes of travel while underfunding the more sustainable modes.

andybsg · December-01-09, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Sure, governments must subsidize travel, and we often end up with whatever the government subsidizes.

IIRC, A study was done about 10 years ago charting government subsidies for different modes of travel. They found that in 20 or 30 years:

Subsidies to airlines tripled.

Subsidies to roads doubled.

Subsidies to rail travel fell by about one-half.

We're going to spend money either way, because no transportation network ever yields clear profit unless it's a trust or monopoly. The point is clear: We are subsidizing the most wasteful modes of travel while underfunding the more sustainable modes.

A govt entity will need to be at the center of any MCS redevelopment whether there is rail service there or not.

**ghettopalmetto** · December-01-09, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by andybsg

A govt entity will need to be at the center of any MCS redevelopment whether there is rail service there or not.

Okay, we get that. What's your point?

**Detroitnerd** · December-01-09, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Okay, we get that. What's your point?

Taxes bad?

andybsg · December-01-09, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Taxes bad?

Point is simply that thinking Mannt Moroun would, should, or could do this on his own is inaccurate.

**Detroitnerd** · December-01-09, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by andybsg

Point is simply that thinking Mannt Moroun would, should, or could do this on his own is inaccurate.

I think the city should take this structure back from Moroun and invite the preservation community, the business community and other "stakeholders" together to come up with a real plan.

I'd like to see it have rail traffic to Chicago and Toledo again, mothballing the upper stories for a while. I was never fond of the Amshak at Baltimore.