How 2 cities revived their train stations and ideas for MCS.

**Russix** · November-30-09, 02:04 AM

I think some form of public-private partnership is due here. The public sector should be responsible for restoring and operating rail service to the station concourse. Matty, in exchange for leasing the station concourse for free, would then have the tower as a huge piece of real estate sitting on top of a busy international passenger terminal. What he does with it is up to him, but property located along busy transit systems usually does fairly well.

**davewindsor** · November-30-09, 07:31 AM

I'd blame the state for not giving him a casino license for the place to turn it into a hotel/casino, which is the only private sector use I can see for a building that size in this market.

MichMatters · November-30-09, 07:43 AM

Did Matty ever request a casino license...?

**rajdet** · November-30-09, 07:56 AM

Casino might have worked, and I always thought Kwame had a good idea when he wanted to turn it in to the DPD headquarters.
MCS photo

**davewindsor** · November-30-09, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by MichMatters

Did Matty ever request a casino license...?

Yes, he did. I remember reading an article somewhere quoting him that said he'd spend $200 million on turning it into a casino and the state denied it.

**davewindsor** · November-30-09, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by MichMatters

Did Matty ever request a casino license...?

Here's one article from the Detroit Free Press about Matty wanting to turn MCS into a casino, but you have to pay to view it and I don't have a membership. I know I saw an article somewhere where it quoted Matty saying he applied for a casino license for the MCS and was denied, but I can't find it. Could be Crain's.

^ a b c Aguilar, Louis [[4-8-2008).Michigan Central Depot owners say 'Roll 'em!'.The Detroit News. Retrieved on July 29, 2008.

The quote was from this Wikopedia section

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Central_Station

Convention Center and Casino - Ambassador Bridge owner Manuel J. "Matty" Moroun,[2] proposed that Michigan Central Station be restored as the centerpiece of a new convention center, possibly combined with a casino. Such a project could cost $1.2 billion, including $300 million to restore the station. Dan Stamper, president of Detroit International Bridge, noted that the station should have been used as one of the city's casinos.[3]

**Supersport** · November-30-09, 10:24 AM

I posted such a comparison on here about 4 years ago, after visiting the train station in Kansas City. Their efforts proved to be well worth it, as the station looks beautiful, is occupied by Amtrak, and numerous other businesses and educational facilities such as a science center and Imax.

Comparing apples to oranges? Hardly! The projects could be looked at seperately, the tower as one, the main floor/lobby of the train station as another. Or, the possibility of tearing down the tower, or perhaps disassembling the tower, in much the same was at the Lafayette, and keep perhaps 5-6 levels.

Perhaps most disturbing though is the fact that a billionaire several times over can't even drop enough cash on the place to put a new roof on the place and properly secure. As if he couldn't afford several dozen $8/hr security guards to secure the place. The guy is reaching the end of his life and is more concerned about building another bridge as a legacy to himself, when in fact restoring the train station would offer a much greater legacy. The station is probably the most photographed, most recognizable, and iconic eyesore in Detroit. Restoring the place to its former glory would not only receive local recogniztion, but also on an international level.

Instead, any one of Detroit's thousands of slumlords could own the place, and it would be in the exact same condition. All the while, our city politicians label such places as "dangerous." Really? Have people been killed or raped inside on a regular basis? Bodies stuffed inside it's many rooms? Are drug dealers setting up shop at the place? Nope. The REAL dangerous buildings reside in the neighborhoods of Detroit, not amongst Detroit's skyline. Though you don't get the kind of recognition and media coverage for announcing you just passed a resolution to tear down a vacant dwelling taken over by drug trade. It's time the city reassesses exactly what a "dangerous" building is.

**ghettopalmetto** · November-30-09, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Supersport

Perhaps most disturbing though is the fact that a billionaire several times over can't even drop enough cash on the place to put a new roof on the place and properly secure. As if he couldn't afford several dozen $8/hr security guards to secure the place. The guy is reaching the end of his life and is more concerned about building another bridge as a legacy to himself, when in fact restoring the train station would offer a much greater legacy. The station is probably the most photographed, most recognizable, and iconic eyesore in Detroit. Restoring the place to its former glory would not only receive local recogniztion, but also on an international level.

Why are you letting the City off the hook for their failure to enforce building codes? The only hand the City of Detroit has played has been to schedule the building for demolition, with the threat that Maroun's money would magically pay for the demolition [[I'm not sure how they intend to actually squeeze blood out of that turnip.).

**d.mcc** · November-30-09, 11:05 AM

While it's nice to dream. This is never going to happen. The only thing I could see working is... Nope. Maybe an intermodal transportation station. It would certainly help develop the Michigan Ave. corridor, could also tie into the Woodward plan.

Ahhhhh, in any other city this wouldn't be a pipe dream...

**ghettopalmetto** · November-30-09, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by d.mcc

Ahhhhh, in any other city this wouldn't be a pipe dream...

Don't you know? Detroit is *different* from everywhere else. Things that work in other cities just don't work in Detroit. It's impossible!

Tear that schitt down! Make a landscaped, lighted parking lot! Make a "temporary" [[skid row) park! Build an underground parking garage there. Anything!

Having to look at old buildings like MCS is keeping all the developers away!!!

PQZ · November-30-09, 11:28 AM

"....Two things Nashville and Kansas City had going in their favor are money and committed local supporters -- public and private -- pushing to save the structures....

There was such a ground swell following the council's vote to demolish the depot. Facebook groups calling to "Save Detroit's Michigan Central Station" sprang up.

And, members of Preservation Wayne, the Greater Detroit Historic Preservation Coalition and the Detroit Historic District Commission showed their support for restoring the station by taking a group photo there this summer. They were inspired by the National Trust for Historic Preservation's "This Place Matters" initiative."

No comment necessary.

**ghettopalmetto** · November-30-09, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by PQZ

"....Two things Nashville and Kansas City had going in their favor are money and committed local supporters -- public and private -- pushing to save the structures....

There was such a ground swell following the council's vote to demolish the depot. Facebook groups calling to "Save Detroit's Michigan Central Station" sprang up.

And, members of Preservation Wayne, the Greater Detroit Historic Preservation Coalition and the Detroit Historic District Commission showed their support for restoring the station by taking a group photo there this summer. They were inspired by the National Trust for Historic Preservation's "This Place Matters" initiative."

No comment necessary.

What, pray tell, do you mean by "no comment necessary"?

PQZ · November-30-09, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

What, pray tell, do you mean by "no comment necessary"?

In two cities, meaningful activism has worked. In the other city, meaningless gestures have not worked. I thought that would have been obvious.

**bailey** · November-30-09, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Don't you know? Detroit is *different* from everywhere else. Things that work in other cities just don't work in Detroit. It's impossible!

Tear that schitt down! Make a landscaped, lighted parking lot! Make a "temporary" [[skid row) park! Build an underground parking garage there. Anything!

Having to look at old buildings like MCS is keeping all the developers away!!!

Isn't the problem is that Detroit IS different than the other cities mentioned here? Detroit leads the nation in virtually ever negative economic indicator. From unemployment rates to literacy rates to population decline to economic activity. A half billion in public dollars spent to renovate a white elephant owned by a slumlord could probably be directed elsewhere. [[the travesty of letting the slumlord BE a slumlord is a reality that is pointless to debate...it is what it is, the man is now and forever, an untouchable.)

At least we should see if the half billion spent and herculean efforts to get the Book and Ft.Shelby up and running is actually going to pay off. I think everyone will agree the jury is still out on that.

Setting aside the huge amount of money in public dollars that will be required, lets look at what the others were renovated for-- Detroit has a science museum and a museum district, it's no where near MCS. Detroit does not have mass transit [[and even the most grandiose future plans do not include the MCS in any way), Amtrack relocated from MSC to New Center....they are not moving back. Detroit has no ability to sustain a Mall, or offices in it's CBD, why would a mall and office development make sense for MCS's isolated and sketchy location?

I want it saved as much as the next guy, and i'm not advocating for it's demolition, but what surely seems like the insurmountable issue for it's preservation/renovation is; "what for"?

It currently seems to be serving the only purpose for which the market will sustain... a location for the shooting of post-apocalyptic/dystopian movies.

**d.mcc** · November-30-09, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Detroit has no ability to sustain a Mall, or offices in it's CBD, why would a mall and office development make sense for MCS's isolated and sketchy location?

I would actually consider Corktown to be pretty UNsketchy.

**bailey** · November-30-09, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by d.mcc

I would actually consider Corktown to be pretty UNsketchy.

Yes, corktown itself is not 'sketchy', however, I would bet you would be in the minority of the population of Metro Detroit to know otherwise...or even that the neighborhood exists.

**douglasm** · November-30-09, 04:33 PM

Again, the thing to remember is that Kansas City Union Station and Cincinatti Union Terminal consist of head buildings and train sheds. There is no office tower in either location, and that's one of the problems with renovating MCS, and a problem that the folks in Buffalo have to deal with. What do you do with a basically useless tower that's going to need a ton of money to renovate. The saving and restoration of both MCS and Buffalo Central Terminal would be a lot easier if the head building was all they had to deal with.

**Fury13** · November-30-09, 04:35 PM

Stamper, president of the Detroit International Bridge Co., ruled out a hotel project...

Why is he now ruling out redevelopment as a hotel? I think that a transit center with Amtrak station, combined with a hotel, makes the most sense for the complex.

Granted, the economy is not conducive to such a project right now, but in two or three years, it could very well be feasible.

**LeannaM** · November-30-09, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by gazhekwe

There's St. Louis and DC too. They seem to go for the retail angle. Would that work here? One thing with DC, it is a major rail hub and people are going in and out of their all day. With St. Louis, they don't seem to have the train, so it is a retail mall and huge hotel. They seem to have problems keeping retailers but when we were there it seemed well utilized.

Union Station in St. Louis is somewhat empty now. There's a new plan in place to expand the hotel inside of it and decrease the amount of retail and restaurant space. It's a decent place to go, but St. Louisans generally seem to regard it as a tourist trap. I don't live in St. Louis, but when I go, my family and I usually park there and eat there. They have maybe 5-6 Fast food places in there. There's also a candy store, and a few clothing stores, mostly sports-related stuff. It also has a small museum and you can tour the Grand Ballroom I think. The fight scene toward the end of Escape from New York was shot in the Grand Ballroom pre-renovation. Much of what was seen is Escape from New York is much different now, mostly for the good.

What's around Michigan Central Station? St. Louis' Union Station is Downtown, and it's like a block from Scottrade Center [[where the Blues play) and the MetroLink regularly stops at Union Station. It's about a mile to Busch Stadium [[where the Cardinals play) and about a mile-and-a-half to The Edward Jones Dome [[where the Rams play). You can take the MetroLink from Union station to Busch Stadium or the Dome or the Arch a variety of other places. The MetroLink mostly only runs Downtown, through the Central West End and Clayton. It's not very extensive. But it's extensive enough to go to most of the touristy places in Downtown, Central West End, and Clayton [[a suburb).

St. Louis Union Station renovation in 1985 cost $150 million. The station was empty from 1978-1985. Escape from New York's fight scene at the end of the movie was filmed in 1981 in Union Station's Grand Ballroom. Some more info: http://www.slfp.com/UnionStation.html
The plans for the new renovation expected to happen in the future:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...n_station.html
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/bus...6?OpenDocument

Union Station's Official Website:
http://www.stlouisunionstation.com/index.cfm

**Gistok** · November-30-09, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by douglasm

Again, the thing to remember is that Kansas City Union Station and Cincinatti Union Terminal consist of head buildings and train sheds. There is no office tower in either location, and that's one of the problems with renovating MCS, and a problem that the folks in Buffalo have to deal with. What do you do with a basically useless tower that's going to need a ton of money to renovate. The saving and restoration of both MCS and Buffalo Central Terminal would be a lot easier if the head building was all they had to deal with.

Absolutely... if it were just the head house, midway and train shed... it would be much easier as far as restoration goes.

As nice as the Roosevelt Park frontage to the MCS is, it pales by comparison to that of Cincinnati's Union Terminal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ci...n-Terminal.jpg

But didn't they destroy most of the train concourses in both Detroit and Cincinnati?

**mcsdetroitfriend** · November-30-09, 09:16 PM

Other than the train sheds being torn down, an some added drop ceilings, the train station is the same that it was some 90 odd years ago.

The Cincinnati station was nothing less than gutted.

Stosh · November-30-09, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by mcsdetroitfriend

Other than the train sheds being torn down, an some added drop ceilings, the train station is the same that it was some 90 odd years ago.

The Cincinnati station was nothing less than gutted.

Other than the plaster rotting off the walls, and the heating, cooling, and plumbing pipes removed or ruined, it's in perfectly fine shape, I suppose.

**ghettopalmetto** · November-30-09, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by Stosh

Other than the plaster rotting off the walls, and the heating, cooling, and plumbing pipes removed or ruined, it's in perfectly fine shape, I suppose.

And therein lies the problem. It's not just an issue of adding windows and paint. The MCS would require all new building systems--HVAC, electrical, plumbing, and vertical transportation. Structure might have to be repaired and/or reinforced, depending on use. There's restoration of historic elements. The building envelope would have to be examined and made weather-tight.

**mcsdetroitfriend** · November-30-09, 09:49 PM

Well apparently it wasn't obvious I was replying to Gistok and him asking about the concourse.

See in Cincinnati they completely got rid of the train aspect from what I understand, where at MCS everything related to trains [[save for the sheds) still exists. No one ever got rid of the subway tunnel to the trains, if they relaid track and things started over, a passenger could still get to their train the same way they did almost 100 years ago.

Cincinnati, no dice

**ghettopalmetto** · November-30-09, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by mcsdetroitfriend

Well apparently it wasn't obvious I was replying to Gistok and him asking about the concourse.

See in Cincinnati they completely got rid of the train aspect from what I understand, where at MCS everything related to trains [[save for the sheds) still exists. No one ever got rid of the subway tunnel to the trains, if they relaid track and things started over, a passenger could still get to their train the same way they did almost 100 years ago.

Cincinnati, no dice

The problem that Cincinnati is having, though, is now they don't really have a suitable location for a train station as part of the new "3C" line that is awaiting federal funds.

http://www.americantowns.com/oh/cinc...il-plan-216405

Since Detroit is in the long-term plans for the Ohio Hub rail network, it would behoove the powers-that-be [[are you reading this, Mr. Bing?) to plan for an appropriate location for a train station. The Amshack on Milwaukee couldn't possibly be expected to support the multiple daily trains to Chicago and Toledo, as well as commuter rail to Ann Arbor [[and elsewhere).