How 2 cities revived their train stations and ideas for MCS.

**sg9018** · November-29-09, 12:44 PM

The Free press has a great story on how Kansas City and Nashville revived thier stations and it chould be a models for Michigan Central Station. Story comes with video.
http://www.freep.com/article/2009112...train-stations

How 2 cities revived old train stations

Kansas City and Nashville could be models for Detroit
BY NAOMI R. PATTON
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER
For years, train stations in Nashville Tenn., and Kansas City, Mo., were boarded-up eyesores. But millions of dollars later, they're anything but dingy. What about the Michigan Central Station in Detroit?

**gazhekwe** · November-29-09, 12:53 PM

There's St. Louis and DC too. They seem to go for the retail angle. Would that work here? One thing with DC, it is a major rail hub and people are going in and out of their all day. With St. Louis, they don't seem to have the train, so it is a retail mall and huge hotel. They seem to have problems keeping retailers but when we were there it seemed well utilized.

**buildingsofdetroit** · November-29-09, 01:05 PM

Don't forget Cleveland's, which was turned into a shopping mall complete with movie theater. The difference, however, is that Cleveland can at least sort of support retail downtown and its train station is right downtown. MCS' location on the outskirts hinders its already bleak chances of redevelopment.

Stosh · November-29-09, 01:06 PM

That's like comparing apples and oranges.

The Kansas City Union Station, maybe two - three floors, manageable size, 250 million dollar restoration.

Nashville Union Station. 4 Floors. 11 million dollar restoration

Detroit Michigan Central Station. 15+ floors. In comparison with the two above, how much to renovate this? And in the grander scheme of things, to what end would a renovation be done? Uses?
My two cents would be a demo of the larger structure above, and a focused renovation of the train station below. And also that would entail prying the property away from Manny.

**Gistok** · November-29-09, 01:16 PM

Nice article! Several other train stations that have undergone adaptive reuse were Cincinnati's Art Deco masterpiece, now a group of museums, and Indianapolis's Union Station, now like St. Louis... a marketplace.

The video clip mentions something that I chided the "rip it down" crowd on in previous threads.... that MCS is indeed our own Ellis Island.... but as is the case with Ellis Island, the vast throngs that came thru MCS as their entry portal to Detroit are mostly no longer alive...

I agree with Stosh, that the 15 story tower is a detriment for restoration. But it's beauty is such that without the tower, the station is much diminished in its' grandeur.

I have always felt that the federal government should turn the station into its Detroit regional HQ for Homeland Security, FBI, AFT, Immigration, Federal Courts and other government offices. [[no need to build a new FBI campus).

Rather than close down the downtown streets around the McNamara Building and Federal Courthouse whenever a Code Yellow or Code Orange alert happens, they should move the sensitive government offices to the MSC, much as the State Of Michigan consolidated their Detroit offices in the former GM HQ.

The Post Office can move their HQ back into the Federal Building, and leave that ugly building on Fort Street as their sorting center.

**Zacha341** · November-29-09, 01:26 PM

Indeed it was the "Ellis Island" for my elders. My parents, several of their siblings, cousins, etc. all migrated to Michigan from southern states ala the black south to north industrial migration of the 40's - 50's onward from trains at that station!! They did not fly in via Metro Airport.

Originally Posted by Gistok

Nice article! Several other train stations that have undergone adaptive reuse were Cincinnati's Art Deco masterpiece, now a group of museums, and Indianapolis's Union Station, now like St. Louis... a marketplace.

The video clip mentions something that I chided the "rip it down" crowd on in previous threads.... that MCS is indeed our own Ellis Island.... but as is the case with Ellis Island, the vast throngs that came thru MCS as their entry portal to Detroit are mostly no longer alive...

Bearinabox · November-29-09, 01:46 PM

I don't see why the tower needs to be completely renovated or demolished. Just seal it up enough to prevent structural damage from exposure to the elements, and make sure nobody is able to go up there and vandalize it. The visual impact of the station as a whole is preserved, and nobody has to foot the bill to renovate all that unneeded space to the point where it's usable again. Hell, maybe even let anyone who's interested renovate as much of the tower as they want, and then give them that amount of space free and clear to use as they see fit. If nobody bites, then no harm done.

**douglasm** · November-29-09, 02:03 PM

CUT is not a good comparison when it comes to MCS. A better one would be Buffalo Central Terminal, with it's 18 story tower. It's situation is a close parallel to that of MCS, in that it was closed in the late 70's, abandoned, vandalized and generally let fall into disrepair until the Buffalo preservationist Scott Field acquired the building for a dollar [[+ back taxes) and the Central Terminal Restoration Corporation was formed to try and preserve the structure. The CTRC website is worth reading, including the FAQ's. They've been at it for 9 years now, and the place is still somewhat of a wreck, but they keep plugging away at it....

http://buffalocentralterminal.org/

**iheartthed** · November-29-09, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

I don't see why the tower needs to be completely renovated or demolished. Just seal it up enough to prevent structural damage from exposure to the elements, and make sure nobody is able to go up there and vandalize it. The visual impact of the station as a whole is preserved, and nobody has to foot the bill to renovate all that unneeded space to the point where it's usable again. Hell, maybe even let anyone who's interested renovate as much of the tower as they want, and then give them that amount of space free and clear to use as they see fit. If nobody bites, then no harm done.

I would think that if they were able to open the building as a train station again then the tower could be a hotel.

And didn't it cost about $200M to do the Book Cadillac? I understand $200M is a lot, but it's not a price tag that we haven't already seen in Detroit before. I remember people speaking on this forum about a development in Grand Rapids a couple years back with a cost that was above the billion dollar mark.

If this became some type of mixed use project like a train station/hotel/shopping complex, it would be one of a kind in southeast Michigan. The only type of mixed used development that comes close is the Ren Cen.

**mcsdetroitfriend** · November-29-09, 03:35 PM

Difference between buffalo and detroit is that detroit has a billion dollar company behind it. Find them 2 to three anchor tenants and MCS has a future, from what Stamper said in the article it seems that's all it will take "Financing is not an issue"

Unfortunatly the "Wayne's World" philosophy of 'If you build it they will come' [[Aerosmith!?!?) isn't true in this situation.

Glad someone brought up Buffalo, it's only the second train station in the US to have Guastavino arches as a centerpiece which makes MCS that much more unique.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ashtonpar/sets/72157621895120054/ [[Reminders of the better days and what could happen in the future!)

Bearinabox · November-29-09, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by mcsdetroitfriend

Difference between buffalo and detroit is that detroit has a billion dollar company behind it. Find them 2 to three anchor tenants and MCS has a future, from what Stamper said in the article it seems that's all it will take "Financing is not an issue"

If that's all Moroun is waiting on, you'd think he'd be making some effort to market the place to prospective tenants, or at least to seal it from the elements and keep it from decaying further in order to minimize renovation costs down the road. The man isn't stupid--he must know that leaving the station to rot in hopes that "two to three anchor tenants" will see the potential and come knock on his door is not an effective development strategy. As you say, financing is not an issue for him. So what are we to conclude about Moroun's motivations? To me, he's sending a very clear signal that he is not serious about fixing up the building.

**mcsdetroitfriend** · November-29-09, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

If that's all Moroun is waiting on, you'd think he'd be making some effort to market the place to prospective tenants, or at least to seal it from the elements and keep it from decaying further in order to minimize renovation costs down the road. The man isn't stupid--he must know that leaving the station to rot in hopes that "two to three anchor tenants" will see the potential and come knock on his door is not an effective development strategy. As you say, financing is not an issue for him. So what are we to conclude about Moroun's motivations? To me, he's sending a very clear signal that he is not serious about fixing up the building.

Have you seen the front entrance in the last couple weeks? Looks blocked off to me, though for whatever reason the side entrance hasn't been done yet, but I haven't been by in a week so that might be different now.

Bearinabox · November-29-09, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by mcsdetroitfriend

Have you seen the front entrance in the last couple weeks? Looks blocked off to me, though for whatever reason the side entrance hasn't been done yet, but I haven't been by in a week so that might be different now.

Once the front entrance is blocked off, a renovation is sure to follow.

**mcsdetroitfriend** · November-29-09, 05:14 PM

what's failed in the past doesn't make it a rule

Bearinabox · November-29-09, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by mcsdetroitfriend

what's failed in the past doesn't make it a rule

I'm not saying it does. I'm just saying that Moroun's blocking off of the entrance doesn't reveal anything about his intentions for the building one way or the other.

Trainman · November-29-09, 06:58 PM

The passage of this tax gives the green light to spend $2 Billion on NEW Freeways in Detroit.

Voting NO could pave the way for public meetings to get this money to fix Detroit by eliminating abandoned buildings and fixing the MCS and stopping the proposed $70 Million per year cuts to DDOT with a three county proposed sales tax.

See the updated Trainman s Save the... in DETROIT LINKS

andybsg · November-29-09, 07:52 PM

The idea of simply stabilizing the tower but restoring the station is very feasible. Who says it has to be the same type of touristy retail available at those other stations. Make it a cultural focal point and a true destination, something different from a "mall", which can be found in any suburb. It should have some sort of cultural significance to draw people.

**jtf1972** · November-29-09, 08:50 PM

I should send Matty a check for $1 with "purchase of Michigan Central Station" written on it, just to see if it gets cashed by mistake.

MichMatters · November-29-09, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by andybsg

The idea of simply stabilizing the tower but restoring the station is very feasible.

Is it? I used to think the same thing a knee-jerk kind of response, but the vast majority of developers aren't going to renovate part of a structure and block the rest off. You don't sink hundreds of millions of dollars into a renovation like this only not to have the project pay you back in a timely fashion, especially this developer, who is about as far away from the term "benevolent" as you'll ever find. If he does renovate this thing, it'll be an all-in strategy. He's not going to block off the part of the project that'd pay him back the fastest: i.e. a leasable tower.

Can anyone imagine the insane rents he'd have to charge [[or, if he was selling the structure, how high a price he'd be asking) for the actual station space if he left the tower up, mothballed, to have the project pay off? No, if he does this thing, he'll renovate the whole thing, or tear the tower down, which would make the station extra expensive to buy or lease. The tower portion is what will ultimately subsidize whatever goes in at the low-rise portion.

**mcsdetroitfriend** · November-29-09, 10:20 PM

And while it could be done, tearing down the tower portion, some portion of the tower would have to remain because it is essential to the stability of the station.

From my trip to Columbia University in New York to study photographs of the station's construction, I could see how the tower portion and the 'station' portion fit together better. Infact they started with the tower portion first then branched north and south.

Check the link I posted a few posts ago and you'll see a couple of the shots I was allowed to photograph

MichMatters · November-29-09, 10:37 PM

Yep, these really aren't two seperate buildings, though, at great cost, the tower could be disconnected from the tower. And, I say at great cost, because you'd have to reconstruct all but one side of the terminal [[the front).

Stosh · November-30-09, 12:15 AM

Yeah, that tower is intergral to the whole, more than likely there will be nothing done without a solution for the tower, one way or the other. It's probably more economical to seal off part of the tower and redevelop it in portions, levels being rehabbed as you go. Windows would be a start throughout. If Matty was serious about this,. there would be windows to stop the infiltration.

Ask him why that is, next time you see him... unless you already know the answer?

**mcsdetroitfriend** · November-30-09, 12:23 AM

I don't actually know the answer to that, the only thing I can think of is probably fear of them being broken all over again, they'll probably remove the remnants of the windows sometime and seal off all the ways in and go from there to preserve whats left in the mean time, I guess the whole vote in april was the kick in the ass they needed, as I do know it won't just be wood, they want something classy.

Stosh · November-30-09, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by mcsdetroitfriend

I don't actually know the answer to that, the only thing I can think of is probably fear of them being broken all over again, they'll probably remove the remnants of the windows sometime and seal off all the ways in and go from there to preserve whats left in the mean time, I guess the whole vote in april was the kick in the ass they needed, as I do know it won't just be wood, they want something classy.

You would think that there would be a way to seal off that upper tower from vandals, given the cash that guy has. Seal the building, then maybe someone will have the confidence in being involved in coming in there and making it happen.

MichMatters · November-30-09, 01:35 AM

It seems like it'd be very easy to seal off the upper floors, at least to trespass. After that, to prevent the broken windows a few immediate stories up would be rather difficult, but you could window the vast majority of the upper floors, unless folks would come by and systematically shoot them out with guns. lol