Why The Hudson, Lafayette, and Statler Blocks Will NEVER Be Developed

[DetroitDad]

Okay, never say never, but I can't see it, if the policies being held by the city and DEGC are true.

What is among the worst moves in these building's demolitions [[one of which I once said needed to be done) is that the Hudson's, Lafayette, and Statler sites [[among others) stand little chance of being developed, because the city is, as I understand it, not allowing those lots to be broken up, nor has it decided what an average, normal sized building lot is, or will be, on many lots. If this is true, the City of Detroit is STILL banking on big developments for these sites. Big "savior" developers were always far and few between, but now are almost non existent, as access to the kind of capital that funded those super projects is gone, and it doesn't appear that it will be coming back for some time.

Smaller developments like the Woodward Garden Block and Mid-Med Lofts are more realistic, but even setting some smaller lots aside for developments on the scale of what was done with the Urban Bean Co. could be considered. The Statler Block, for example, could be divided to match the smaller building that survived there, while Hudson's could be made to accommodate buildings to match in scale to the buildings just to the North [[like the Singer Sewing Machine Buildings next to the wig boutique, or the Oslo Building).

[MichMatters]

I don't at all mind them saving these huge lots in the literal middle of the central business district for projects befitting a big city, even one as as troubled as downtown Detroit. There are tons of other empty smaller lots dotting the downtown area that these shouldn't be broken up and carved out so we get something like Woodward Place at Brush Park on say the Monroe Block. lol

One of the few times I agreed with the DEGC was when they rejected the scaling back of Cadillac Place, that'd have been little more than a glorified parking garage.

[DetroitDad]

Wasn't Woodward Place pretty much all one developer? That is kind of my point.

I prefer Greektown, with many different owning entities, buildings, and an affective association over Woodward Place any day.

I also think the four blocks North of the Hudson's block looks and could operate better than the two to the South.

Why can't the city and DEGC do it's job and coordinate developers by use of codes and zoning, instead of just holding vacant lots and demolishing buildings? I really thought that was part of the whole point of some of these bodies.

[MichMatters]

Campus Martius was long ago designed for monumental buildings as the streets are at a momumental scale. It'll never be Greektown, and shouldn't be; Campus Martius is not a village center, it's a monumental central business district. Again, this is the literal center of the city, and it's surrounded by the more human-scaled pocket-park districts. It doesn't need to be carved up to make it into a one of the "towns" [[i.e. Greektown, Bricktown, Capitol Park...) of the central city.

[Russix]

http://www.angelfire.com/de2/detroitpix/Kern.jpg

[DetroitDad]

Say it ain't so...

Attachment 4054

Above and below photo from Buildings of Detroit.

Although, I really wasn't talking about the areas touching Grand Circus Park or Campus Martius Park. Generally, you start small and build demand for your larger buildings. That photo above turned into this, eventually.

Attachment 4055

Of course, now all the smaller building's spaces that are waiting for monumental buildings have been replaced with monumental parking lots.



Above photo from the Frequency 13 Blog. That is of course the parking lot where those buildings once stood.

I mean, do you seriously think we are suddenly going to find large scale developers for all these city owned blocks? I think those days are over, probably for good, or at least a very long time.

[MichMatters]

I really don't see why not. Who would have ever thought Compuware would have built a monumental edifice at the intersection in 2000? And, until they scaled back their plans, Quicken Loans was very seriously considering one of the blocks.

I guess the question is that even declined, do you not think Detroit is a big enough metro and the downtown, even declined, is a big enough draw, to have another major corporation[[s) choose the heart of downtown as their headquarters? Sorry, I think you're are grossly exaggerating, here.

There are a lot of locations in Detroit that have disappeared and will disappear and probably won't be used again in any significant manner in my life time. Campus Martius isn't one of them. There is absolutely no need why these sites have to be developed, now, or even in the near-future. These are abandoned blocks that are hazards to public safety; they are and have been actively-marketed sites for development.

You've contrived a problem where there isn't one.

[DetroitDad]

I really don't see why not. Who would have ever thought Compuware would have built a monumental edifice at the intersection in 2000? And, until they scaled back their plans, Quicken Loans was very seriously considering one of the blocks.

I guess the question is that even declined, do you not think Detroit is a big enough metro and the downtown, even declined, is a big enough draw, to have another major corporation[[s) choose the heart of downtown as their headquarters? Sorry, I think you're are grossly exaggerating, here.

There are a lot of locations in Detroit that have disappeared and will disappear and probably won't be used again in any significant manner in my life time. Campus Martius isn't one of them. There is absolutely no need why these sites have to be developed, now, or even in the near-future. These are abandoned blocks that are hazards to public safety; they are and have been actively-marketed sites for development.

You've contrived a problem where there isn't one.

Campus Martius isn't what we were talking about. Do you know how many vacant lots are in Downtown Detroit? So you are saying save all these lots for a single company. Quicken, did end up sitting on all of them for over a year, and ended up building on none of them, and no one even complained about having to wait in line.

I think there might be a big corporation coming to Detroit, but probably not more than five, let alone several dozen. Do you know how many large vacant or nearly vacant monumental buildings there are in Downtown Detroit? Why can't any of those be used? It took a Quicken move just to fill Compuware, a building surrounded by office vacancies.

Now, could you imagine if both Quicken and Compuware with GM to boot, instead chose to disperse themselves across a park in smaller buildings, or filled several of the buildings up Woodward Avenue or around Capital Park in a campus type fashion, with workers walking past outdoor store fronts? Would that help make the urban environment so many are leaving the state for? Would that cause a demand for apartments and condos?

And yes, what of these vacant lots? Vacant lots are no problem, right? Have you ever walked past any of these lots in the dead of Winter, with wind howling across the urban prairie/cement desert and snow piled on the unshoveled sidewalk? No? Most other people don't either. In fact, most people avoid walking past these lots even in the Summer, it's boring and not enjoyable. Vacant lots make walking a hassle, repell retail on the other side of the street, and doesn't make you feel like you are in an outdoor room [[good urban places are outdoor rooms. Vacant lots are like ripping out one of your living room walls). It ruins the urban experience that urbanites crave, something they can get elsewhere, and something we need to start providing more of.

If you want dead streets that no one cares about, keep adding missing teeth and vacant lots to our urban fabric.

[MichMatters]

I'm beginning to think we're talking about two very different things. lol I can't find too much I disagree with in that last post, so I'm really confused, then. I'm talking specifically about the big blocks in the immediate area of Campus Martius, and why I'd rather the city take its time to do them right instead of some crap slapped up on them. As long as these lots are maintained and actively-marketed, I can more than tolerate them. We have zoning for a reason. I have no idea, though, where you get the idea I'm advocating saving lots for a single company.

[DetroitDad]

Hey, you are arguing against allowing vacant lots in the central business district to be broken up for smaller developers?

[Red Devil]

If/when Detroit's economic situation [[and the social situation) improves, the vacant lots can be gifted to real estate developers who can then turn them into "planned communities" filled with overpriced homes, lifestyle centers, and faux urbanity galore. For examples, check out Denver's Stapleton and Lowry developments

[MichMatters]

Hey, you are arguing against allowing vacant lots in the central business district to be broken up for smaller developers?

Around Campus Martius? Definitely. Elsewhere? It goes from not caring in some areas to some areas where lots absolutely should be/should have been broken up.

[bailey]

Campus Martius isn't what we were talking about. Do you know how many vacant lots are in Downtown Detroit? So you are saying save all these lots for a single company. Quicken, did end up sitting on all of them for over a year, and ended up building on none of them, and no one even complained about having to wait in line.

Is anyone complaining that there aren't enough small lots to develop in and around the CBD?

You're outraged over a problem that doesn't exist. Left as is, or sub-divided, the lots you are so concerned about will remain empty for decades more. There is glut of vacant space that needs filling before anyone is going to give up on the pipe dream that a large site will someday be needed.

How about we get to a point to where there is pent up demand for a subdivision of the plots before we get all apoplectic about the irrational optimism that they;ll be redeveloped intact?

[Danny]

It would be up to 20 years when the Hudson, Lafayette and Statler Blocks will be developed. Years of disinvestments and utilization took its toll in Downtown Detroit. You all see the big vacant lots and parking lots all over Downtown Detroit and no one, not even city, county and state politicians call out to global investors asking them to build their glass covered skyscrapers to fill the Downtown Detroit skyline. Today Downtown Detroit remains since the white folks moved out, a remant of the Great Depression. They are still more vacant buildings, half the offices are occupied and no new fancy retail shops being developed.

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

I'm still waiting for that "PRIME DEVELOPMENT OPPORTUNITY"

Neda Soltani, You will be remembered.

[Retroit]

DetroitDad, if what you say is true about developers wanting these lots divided and the city refusing, I would totally agree with you. They should be sold off to the first person who wants them [[assuming they are verified to have a viable plan with financial means and the plan is appropriate for a commercial district, etc.)

[Fnemecek]

Okay, never say never, but I can't see it, if the policies being held by the city and DEGC are true.

What is among the worst moves in these building's demolitions [[one of which I once said needed to be done) is that the Hudson's, Lafayette, and Statler sites [[among others) stand little chance of being developed...

That simply can't be true. Brian Holdwick of the DEGC told reporters that he had a developer lined up to build on the Statler site as soon as the building is demolished.

Granted, there has been a slight delay but it's only been 4 years. I'm sure construction will begin on that site any minute now.

[Meddle]

middle of the central business district for projects befitting a big city,

Detroit is no longer a big city. It's only a shadow of it's former self.

[French777]

962,000 people? Sounds big to me

[chitaku]

Detroit is a big city..........population wise.

[Mackinaw]

DDad is right, at least some of these parcels should be subdivided, if not by the city in its sales process, than by the acquiring purchaser through a motion in front of the zoning board. Any sort of organic redevelopment of downtown really requires us to move away from superblocks which, incidentally, require massive investments that few are positioned to take in Detroit.

The Hudson block should be split into two or four, at least. Though Hudson, the largest department store in the world, occupied that entire parcel, look around the the neighboring context to get some clue as to how that land should be used. Subdividing it won't stop big, bold signature developments from occuring-- if they otherwise would.

[313WX]

Detroit is still a big city by several standards [[not just population).

-Busiest/closest international border in the world [[thus major trading port).
-Top 10 busiest international airport in the country.
-2nd largest entertainment district in the country [[and 2nd largest theatre in the country).
-One of the most extensive street grids in the country.
-Rich history on par with New York & Chicago.
-It's still the Automobile capital of the world.
-Some of the wealthiest suburbs in the country.
-Authentic food items [[like New York & Chicago).
-Gambling capital of the Midwest.
-2 or 3 urban unversities.
-One of the largest urban parks in the country.
-Arguably the 2nd largest & oldest thanksgiving parade in the country.
-The 2nd largest fireworks show in the country.

Anyone who thinks not has a serious flaw in their logic. I do agree it's a shadow of its former self, but that's the case with just about every city.

[Jason]

Developers prefer larger lots, and breaking the lots up would make them less appealing to developers. Detroit doesn't have the economic pressures to make building on difficult sites worthwhile.

Also, we've seen unbuilt plans for both the Hudson's, Statler, and Monroe blocks, and I don't think any of them were bigger than what's appropriate for those sites. I think it's ok to hold out for something better, and it's not like there's any demand for anything right now anyway.

[DetroitDad]

Bigger does not mean better.

How is this;



or this;

Attachment 4119

Better than this;



or this;




Additional photos from; National Precast Inc. and http://detroit1701.org/Schwankovsky.htm and
http://urbanlivingupdate.blogspot.com

Although, I agree that it would be nice to have monumental buildings on the Monroe Block and Statler Block facing the respective parks. However, I still think the Statler and Monroe blocks could be broken up, the same way that the Broderick and David Whitney blocks are on Grand Circus Park, where monumental buildings face the park, but take up only the front portion [[or the "point") of the block, and individual smaller buildings take up the rest.

[PQZ]

Gee. I thought it was the shitty economy and dwindling population that made these blocks so hard to develop. I mean every other small to moderate size parcel and small to moderate size building is already redeveloped. Its clearly only the big blocks and big buildings that are not being redeveloped. Look at Woodward, there's not a single small to medium building or parcel that is undeveloped on that street. Thanks for clearing that up.

[DetroitDad]

Gee. I thought it was the shitty economy and dwindling population that made these blocks so hard to develop. I mean every other small to moderate size parcel and small to moderate size building is already redeveloped. Its clearly only the big blocks and big buildings that are not being redeveloped. Look at Woodward, there's not a single small to medium building or parcel that is undeveloped on that street. Thanks for clearing that up.

No, it isn't, it is because of our lack of foresight during the last boom. We started planning during the boom, and couldn't streamline the process to get shovels in the ground fast enough. There just isn't enough time to both rebuild Detroit and grease palms, argue, and supply jobs for the homies.