James Kunstler gives a virtual tour of Detroit

**noggin** · November-23-09, 02:49 PM

I know this is a little late but it is a outsider's view of Detroit. He takes the listener on a Google tour and gives his opinion of the urban design.

http://www.kunstlercast.com/shows/Ku...r_Detroit.html

**Det_ard** · November-23-09, 02:58 PM

I'd heard a lot about Kunstler so a few months ago I gave this a complete listen then.

His last trip to Detroit was years ago, he commits so many errors on basic facts and in his view of things in the city that his take is pretty worthless. He certainly acts like a know-it-all but his prescriptions and observations are the kind of trite "urbanism-in-a-can" that any of us could do better.

In sum, I was underwhelmed.

Oh yeah, thanks for posting...

**noggin** · November-23-09, 03:13 PM

I like how he kept talking about parking cars in the Fox Theater.

**gazhekwe** · November-23-09, 04:23 PM

Lots of mistakes in history, perception and usage. It was interesting though. He is right about the big disappointment of the WinterGarden.

**Detroit Stylin** · November-23-09, 05:19 PM

Yeah both of these guys sound completley lost. And the one 'expert' sound like a know it all azz....

**dtowncitylover** · November-23-09, 05:22 PM

Reading the Geography of Nowhere made me want to kill myself. Worst book ever. When he talked about Detroit all I wanted to do was sit him down and point out all his mistakes.

**Detroit Stylin** · November-23-09, 05:23 PM

Is this dude from the area?

**texorama** · November-23-09, 05:25 PM

No--he's from Saratoga Springs, New York. Known for his Eyesore of the Month website, which can be amusing, but basically a doomsayer and provocateur.

**Detroit Stylin** · November-23-09, 05:29 PM

When did Woodward Ave become a one way street?

**Joseph C. Krause** · November-23-09, 05:55 PM

I like James Kunstler. He may be wrong on the details, but I tend to agree with his conclusions. Detroit should embrace good urbanism as espoused by Kunstler and other "new" urbanists.

Bearinabox · November-23-09, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by Det_ard

He certainly acts like a know-it-all but his prescriptions and observations are the kind of trite "urbanism-in-a-can" that any of us could do better.

Well, could we? Anytime anyone on this forum tries to bring up urban design, the thread fills up with comments to the effect of "Troy has low taxes and good schools, so they must be doing something right." As long as there are still people who are capable of missing the point that completely, there is a need for people like Kunstler. He does tend to be sloppy with his research, though.

**gnome** · November-23-09, 06:54 PM

Forgive me, I thought Urban Design was all about details. How humans interact with their enviroment ... is all about detail. Detail in the height of buildings, site lines, tree cover, access to the full fabric of urban experience. Details like which shops compliment eachother, should you have brick or concrete underfoot.... all those are the exacting details that make an urban experience pleasing and productive or crushingly depressive. You get details wrong and you get the whole thing wrong.

But what the hell do I know.

**DetroitPlanner** · November-23-09, 11:14 PM

Jim Kunstler is a journalist. While what he writes is entertaining, it is not hard news. He does not write it to be hard news, he writes it to stir the pot. If anything Kunstler is an old urbanist. He does not like anything new. Except for maybe his website and royalty checks.

**ghettopalmetto** · November-23-09, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by gnome

Forgive me, I thought Urban Design was all about details. How humans interact with their enviroment ... is all about detail. Detail in the height of buildings, site lines, tree cover, access to the full fabric of urban experience. Details like which shops compliment eachother, should you have brick or concrete underfoot.... all those are the exacting details that make an urban experience pleasing and productive or crushingly depressive. You get details wrong and you get the whole thing wrong.

Therefore, if Kunstler gets one factoid wrong about Detroit, dismiss all of his ideas, because Southeast Michigan already does incredibly well creating the "full fabric of the urban experience". Fuck that guy. I mean, it's not like he was even born in Detroit, so what does he know?

**detroitsgwenivere** · November-24-09, 01:19 AM

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/ja..._suburbia.html

I know that many of you aren't this guys biggest fan, but I thought this was too funny.....

**gnome** · November-24-09, 08:00 AM

Therefore, if Kunstler gets one factoid wrong about Detroit, dismiss all of his ideas, because Southeast Michigan already does incredibly well creating the "full fabric of the urban experience". Fuck that guy. I mean, it's not like he was even born in Detroit, so what does he know?

A factoid about Detroit is knowing that it lies north of Windsor, or that Hazen Pingree died in London and looked as though he was King Edward's twin brother. That's a factoid. A detail is not knowing that Woodward is two-way.

I'm all in favor of any workable idea to save Detroit, but if the foundation for the proffered solutions is based in glaringly incorrect details, one can logically conclude the solution is not worth serious consideration.

**mauser** · November-24-09, 11:55 AM

"aka the Aztec Maw of Death"

wuh ?

**mauser** · November-24-09, 11:56 AM

"Yeah, we're going down to the Maw tonight to see the Wings...."

Bearinabox · November-24-09, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by gnome

A factoid about Detroit is knowing that it lies north of Windsor, or that Hazen Pingree died in London and looked as though he was King Edward's twin brother. That's a factoid. A detail is not knowing that Woodward is two-way.

I'm all in favor of any workable idea to save Detroit, but if the foundation for the proffered solutions is based in glaringly incorrect details, one can logically conclude the solution is not worth serious consideration.

Kunstler isn't really about "saving" any particular place so much as about promoting attractive, well-designed, hospitable communities. It displays a certain hubris on his part that he readily agreed to give a virtual tour of a city he knew very little about without doing any research beforehand, but I don't think that reflects on the merits of his overall views on urban design. I find him most convincing when he's using examples from his hometown and the surrounding area, and if I were him I would have responded for the request for a Detroit tour either by referring the listener to someone he knew to be knowledgeable about the city or by inviting such a person to join him on the podcast as a guest. I still think his overall ideas [[better expressed in his books than on this podcast, IMO) have merit, and should be taken into consideration when making decisions that alter the landscape of this or any city.

**DetroitPlanner** · November-24-09, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

Kunstler isn't really about "saving" any particular place so much as about promoting attractive, well-designed, hospitable communities. It displays a certain hubris on his part that he readily agreed to give a virtual tour of a city he knew very little about without doing any research beforehand, but I don't think that reflects on the merits of his overall views on urban design. I find him most convincing when he's using examples from his hometown and the surrounding area, and if I were him I would have responded for the request for a Detroit tour either by referring the listener to someone he knew to be knowledgeable about the city or by inviting such a person to join him on the podcast as a guest. I still think his overall ideas [[better expressed in his books than on this podcast, IMO) have merit, and should be taken into consideration when making decisions that alter the landscape of this or any city.

Bear, he has written quite a bit about Detroit. I have seen him speak in Detroit on two occasions, though not recently. Geography of Nowhere is pretty much a slam on both Detroit and Disney World.

Bearinabox · November-24-09, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Bear, he has written quite a bit about Detroit. I have seen him speak in Detroit on two occasions, though not recently. Geography of Nowhere is pretty much a slam on both Detroit and Disney World.

I read Geography of Nowhere as a "slam" on poor urban design wherever it exists. Detroit and Disney World are particularly easy targets, but what I got out of the book is that poor design is the rule in postwar American construction, and that examples can be found in basically every part of the country.

**noggin** · November-24-09, 04:59 PM

Even on the riverfront there has been improvement. Only 10 years ago Detroit had on the best million dollar parking lot views of the riverfront. Now with the river walk it is gotten to be very pedestrian friendly. I really believe after the years of architectural abuse it is more people oriented with new changes made downtown.

DetroitDad · November-24-09, 08:35 PM

Kunstler is an expert on urbanism, but not on Detroit, enough said. He was getting lots of suggestions suggesting a virtual tour of Detroit to compare and contrast with his virtual tour of Paris. He has noted that Detroit and it's blunders are not special, just the most infamous. Otherwise, that show could have showcased a virtual tour of Cleveland, or countless other North American cities with the same affect.

I do think we should be proud of our accomplishments in improving the urban environment in the recent years. However, our past blunders really still make up the majority of our city, and need to be ridiculed, mostly because they still happen regularly. For every new good urban development or grand renovation, we have really bone headed moves, like the huge wall incorporated into the Woodward Place apartment Building off I-75, the demolition of the Lafayette Building for"green space" [[rather than a plan for attracting a developer to build new beautiful buildings there, and maintain a street wall), or the horrible blank corrugated steel walls of the Boll Family YMCA [[come on, many of you have been thinking it, I'm just saying it).

**buildingsofdetroit** · November-24-09, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Reading the Geography of Nowhere made me want to kill myself. Worst book ever. When he talked about Detroit all I wanted to do was sit him down and point out all his mistakes.

Like saying the Fox Theatre was being used for a parking lot? A little preparation wouldn't have killed you, guy. If he's so wrong on Detroit, why on earth would I trust him for cities that I wouldn't know fact from fiction. His bit about the Joe's steps being like an Aztec temple of death was pretty funny, though.

Bearinabox · November-25-09, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by buildingsofdetroit

If he's so wrong on Detroit, why on earth would I trust him for cities that I wouldn't know fact from fiction.

You probably shouldn't trust his facts without independently verifying them, but I don't think that necessarily reflects on his ideas about urban design, which are largely subjective and have very little to do with facts one way or the other. You don't have to know which sports team plays at the Joe to be able to look at it and observe that its design completely cuts it off from the rest of downtown, for example. I agree that a little preparation wouldn't have killed him, though.