OMG! Somebody finally gets it!

[lilpup]

Finally, finally, finally, what we've been jumping up and down screaming about for so many years gets acknowledged.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/21/op...21herbert.html

[gnome]

You're absolutely right Lilpup... as is the author of the op/ed: the lack of a sensible industrial policy has depleted the manufacturing might of the entire US and since we were the umphalos of manufacturing, we've become the epicenter of the nation's industrial collapse.

[Pinewood73]

Great article!

Thanks for posting.

[Patrick]

"We’ve been living with the illusion that manufacturing — making things — is so 20th century,” said Mr. Shaiken, “and that we could succeed by concentrating, for example, on complex financial instruments while abandoning the industrial base that sustained so many American families.”

Best quote ever

[DetroitPlanner]

I liked what he said about the early 1980's really knocking us on our butt. People seem to look at stuff like racial fears that grew out of the 1960's, but the recession of 1982 led to the closure of Hudson's, the Book, Sander's, and much of what we thought were the downtown anchors.

Without those anchors we floated away from the central city, when things did pick up again around 1985 or 1986, many of the manufacturing jobs had already left.

[Retroit]

Unfortunately, I don't think the author fully understands the issue. For example, he says:

"We need a revitalized industrial policy, including the creation of whole new industries, if American families are to prosper in the coming decades."

What makes him think that these new industries won't also be shifted overseas or that foreign competitors won't under-price us? The solution to the problem is tariffs [[tax on imported goods).

[daddeeo]

We've needed a Marshall Plan for ourselves for quite a few years. People are losing hope.

[Bobl]

I liked what he said about the early 1980's really knocking us on our butt. People seem to look at stuff like racial fears that grew out of the 1960's, but the recession of 1982 led to the closure of Hudson's, the Book, Sander's, and much of what we thought were the downtown anchors.

Without those anchors we floated away from the central city, when things did pick up again around 1985 or 1986, many of the manufacturing jobs had already left.

True. But one cannot ignore the explosion of crack cocaine use then. Entire neighborhoods were decimated, some in a matter of months, by the results of this scourge. An example on the East Side would be the Gratiot/Six Mile Rd area.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Unfortunately, I don't think the author fully understands the issue. For example, he says:

"We need a revitalized industrial policy, including the creation of whole new industries, if American families are to prosper in the coming decades."

What makes him think that these new industries won't also be shifted overseas or that foreign competitors won't under-price us? The solution to the problem is tariffs [[tax on imported goods).

I believe the author DOES get it because of the final sentence:

"If there is any sense of urgency about this in the hearts and minds of our corporate and government leaders, I’ve missed it."

[jtf1972]

Oh my lord... Retroit and I agree on something! Tariffs are imposed by every nation I can think of, including those who have "free trade" agreements with us. All free trade does is slap the word "free" on the USA, and the rest of the world is all too happy to oblige us by paying that price.

Damn good article, by the way. I just happen to think that the new industrial policy that the author mentions should include tariffs.

[DetroitPlanner]

True. But one cannot ignore the explosion of crack cocaine use then. Entire neighborhoods were decimated, some in a matter of months, by the results of this scourge. An example on the East Side would be the Gratiot/Six Mile Rd area.

Detroit was not the only city in the world to get crack. However, crack did appeal to the poor and depressed, which this city was certainly full of in those days. Therefore drug use was another byproduct. The 80's certainly were a bleak time; much worse than the 60's or 70's when everyone was blaming things on racist fears.

[313WX]

True. But one cannot ignore the explosion of crack cocaine use then. Entire neighborhoods were decimated, some in a matter of months, by the results of this scourge. An example on the East Side would be the Gratiot/Six Mile Rd area.

The area around Mack/Chalmers used to be known as Crack Alley in the 80s.

[Retroit]

I believe the author DOES get it because of the final sentence:

"If there is any sense of urgency about this in the hearts and minds of our corporate and government leaders, I’ve missed it."

Why should they have a sense of urgency? The corporate leaders are profiting by shifting production overseas. The government leaders are profiting when they leave congress and get higher paying jobs as foreign lobbyists.

[lilpup]

Why should they have a sense of urgency? The corporate leaders are profiting by shifting production overseas. The government leaders are profiting when they leave congress and get higher paying jobs as foreign lobbyists.

They are still dependent upon the US consumer culture, which is getting tapped out - no jobs, no pay, no consumers. Nowhere else has been developed enough to take its place. Everything could come to a screeching halt.

[reddog289]

Maybe when people here can't even afford to shop at WalMart, Dollar Tree etc and I do not mean who shops there now, I mean the whole population. The big wigs might say to themselves, "If nobody can buy anything then how can we sell anything".
The screw machine shop that I worked at for a brief time 8 yrs ago shut down last year. I found out how much of a one way street manufacturing has been around here for quite some time. They used to make parts for such Michigan based companies such as Lionel, Holley Carb, and Techumseh Engine.
I heard the "political" end of it from my godfather/uncle. The shipping end of it and its pitfalls from another uncle, and the third uncle said in jest, "Maybe we should move to Brazil the weather is better". Which is where many of the parts they made in the latter years went.
Be it Union or Non Union jobs.If 75% of your business comes from a source and you lose that well that is a big hit. People not working in a shop in DetYes favorite city "Livonia" won't spend money in such location. Same as the workers around Dahgliesh?Cadillac, among other sites in the metro area.
Maybe the ones who stick it out here can end up farming and getting whatever they do need from where ever. But as my uncle told me. "If we ever were to get into a war as big as WW2, Who will build the weapons?' " Not us cause the shops are shutting down".

[2blocksaway]

"We’ve been living with the illusion that manufacturing — making things — is so 20th century,” said Mr. Shaiken, “and that we could succeed by concentrating, for example, on complex financial instruments while abandoning the industrial base that sustained so many American families.”

Actually, making things and paying people way too much for doing it and paying people way to much after they have retired is what is so 20th century.

Detroit, Michigan, and the U.S. can still have a strong manufacturing industry but Michigan must first become a right to work state and the people doing the work must realize that most of the work isn't that difficult and doesn't deserve much over $15 to $20 an hour if that.

[EastsideAl]

I knew the anti-union crap would come fast enough. Blame the working guy on a loud, dirty, potentially dangerous shop floor [[his job is so easy...). Never mind that it was those very unions that brought down workplace deaths and injuries and, oh yes, built the American middle class that bought all those cars. But the guys in the big clean offices who make millions while running their companies, and the entire system, into the ground - why, they're golden!

[2blocksaway]

I knew the anti-union crap would come fast enough. Blame the working guy on a loud, dirty, potentially dangerous shop floor [[his job is so easy...). Never mind that it was those very unions that brought down workplace deaths and injuries and, oh yes, built the American middle class that bought all those cars. But the guys in the big clean offices who make millions while running their companies, and the entire system, into the ground - why, they're golden!

Ya, but now all the unions do is push and push for more money and benefits. They had their time and did their job now it is time to move on.

I didn't say shop jobs were easy either. They do however take a minimal amount of skill. The hard part is that they are repetitive and mind numbing. They pay is for coming back day after day. Just because it is dirty doesn't mean someone can't walk in off the street and be doing it the same or better in a few weeks. I have yet to see a shop or a plant close because someone off the line didn't show up for a few days.

Unions offer the worker no incentive. Why work harder when the other guy isn't and is getting paid the same? Don't tell me you haven't heard that one before.

Most union workers I have worked with look around and if they see someone doing less they get jealous.

Don't forget about the guy in the office making way less than the guy in the shop and hates his job just as much.

Pretty much work just sucks.

I'm not saying some million dollar executive earns his pay either. After all they negotiated the contracts.

[pffft]

The interesting thing to me is that it's never management types who are anti-union zealots, it's usually folks who resent union benefits because they don't have them, or even close to comparable pay.
Instead of wanting everybody to be paid less, why not have a world in which all forms of labor, intellectual and physical, are rewarded and people can raise families with dignity for a hard day's work?

[Patrick]

Are companies scared of setting up shop in Michigan because of the union presence? Or is it something else?

[lilpup]

the people doing the work must realize that most of the work isn't that difficult and doesn't deserve much over $15 to $20 an hour if that.

Contrary to popular misperception, the line jobs weren't then, and certainly aren't now, overpaid. At $23/hour that's only $46K a year for the standard 40 hrs/wk, 2000 hrs/yr. Under the new UAW contract the starting wage is something like $14/hr.

A point to note: The state/province in North America that produces the most cars now is Ontario. Canada has taxes typically higher than the US, Canada has environmental regulations, Canada has the CAW, Canada has a slight advantage with the exchange rate. What's the primary difference between Canada and the US? Universal health care.

[ziggyselbin]

Ya, but now all the unions do is push and push for more money and benefits. They had their time and did their job now it is time to move on.

I didn't say shop jobs were easy either. They do however take a minimal amount of skill. The hard part is that they are repetitive and mind numbing. They pay is for coming back day after day. Just because it is dirty doesn't mean someone can't walk in off the street and be doing it the same or better in a few weeks. I have yet to see a shop or a plant close because someone off the line didn't show up for a few days.

Unions offer the worker no incentive. Why work harder when the other guy isn't and is getting paid the same? Don't tell me you haven't heard that one before.

Most union workers I have worked with look around and if they see someone doing less they get jealous.

Don't forget about the guy in the office making way less than the guy in the shop and hates his job just as much.

Pretty much work just sucks.

I'm not saying some million dollar executive earns his pay either. After all they negotiated the contracts.

I am curious what jobs have you personally had union or not in a factory that you know the level of skill required? I have not worked in any so I do not know. However I am skeptical of generalizations about skill levels in the workplace.

The other riddle is who in the hell is gonna by the trucks and cars and refrigerators and tv's and other stuff when we are all making 12-15$ an hour. On those earnings one can barely pay rent[[in a shitty neighborhood) pay utilities and eat.........who's gonna buy stuff?

[Det_ard]

The column and some of the supporting comments fail to address a few things.

One, tariffs have been show to hurt the economies of both countries involved. They're not a solution unless you're looking to pick a few winners [[the protected companies/workers)at the expense of a bunch of losers [[everyone else).

Two, we still manufacture more in dollar terms that any other nation [[including the EU taken as a group). It takes fewer employees to do so though, as technology leads to improved productivity. This trend of using fewer people to produce more goods is happening in China and other countries too. It's been happening here since at least WWII.

Three, we're not "losing" manufacturing anymore than we "lost" agriculture when our society went from 70% farmers to less than 2% farmers. We produce more food now than ever, with fewer people, at lower cost. We export to the world. The displaced farmers found work in industry.

That's the challenge today, how do displaced manufacturing employees find work in non-manufacturing sectors? The key difference between now and the earlier farm--->factory shift is that more knowledge is required in the non-manufacturing jobs.

Looking to some ill-defined "industrial policy" involving tariffs won't help.

[Danny]

Detroit hasn't died yet! It's still alive.

[Retroit]

One, tariffs have been show to hurt the economies of both countries involved. They're not a solution unless you're looking to pick a few winners [[the protected companies/workers)at the expense of a bunch of losers [[everyone else).

Maybe I'm not as knowledgeable as you are on this, but didn't the United States become an industrial powerhouse with the aid of tariffs [[late 19th, early 20th Centuries)? All the while that the declining Great Britain was espousing "Free Trade"? Perhaps you could provide where the contrary "has been shown".

As for picking winners: Yes, I would like to pick the United States as a winner. Is that allowed, or do we need to get approval from "the international community"?

Two, we still manufacture more in dollar terms that any other nation [[including the EU taken as a group). It takes fewer employees to do so though, as technology leads to improved productivity. This trend of using fewer people to produce more goods is happening in China and other countries too. It's been happening here since at least WWII.

And I suppose you think it would be impossible for foreign countries to put our remaining manufacturing industries out of business? This is the same illusion that America had when we first embraced Free Trade.

Three, we're not "losing" manufacturing anymore than we "lost" agriculture when our society went from 70% farmers to less than 2% farmers. We produce more food now than ever, with fewer people, at lower cost. We export to the world. The displaced farmers found work in industry.

You do realize that American agriculture is heavily subsidized? A subsidy is nothing more than a tariff by another name.

That's the challenge today, how do displaced manufacturing employees find work in non-manufacturing sectors? The key difference between now and the earlier farm--->factory shift is that more knowledge is required in the non-manufacturing jobs.

And I suppose you think that Americans are "more knowledgeable" than Asians?

Looking to some ill-defined "industrial policy" involving tariffs won't help.

And your solution is...