Woodward Avenue Retail Development Activity

[royce]

I may have to change my tune about the possability of a major "department store" retailer moving into downtown after reading this article in this morning's Seattle Times about Target moving into downtown Seattle:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm..._target31.html

Seattle has a large downtown residential population, and a pretty good retail core. Do you think Detroit has enough downtown residents yet to support something like this?

Initially when Target stores came out, I was not crazy about them. However, now I love them, especially since they've added frozen foods and other non-perishable food items. The Archer Farms products, Target's brand-name, are good products. If there was ever a national-chain store that I think could work downtown, it would be Target. A store on the Hudson's site would be the place to put it. Dedicated parking is available underneath. In Seattle, having a 191 condo owners living above the future Target store there is definitely a plus. Perhaps a Target/condo tower could work well on the Hudson's site. I know if I lived in a condo or apartment in any city's downtown, it would be a hugh plus to not have to drive to buy my everyday toiletries, casual wear, electronics, and non-perishable food items. Hey, and then on Saturdays I could bike ride over to Eastern Market for my fresh food items. Wow, I'm starting to think like a young idealistic twenty-something. I better stop. That boat sailed for me a long time ago.

[Hermod]

It'd be nice if it were a SuperTarget like the one on Telegraph. Target on the second floor, and parking/perhaps some smaller tenants below. I could definitely see something like that working on say, the old Hudson's block [[although purists may scream).

In answer to the purists, Target is a lineal descendant of Hudson's Basement Store.

[detmsp]

Give it a few years and a downtown Target could be possible... The company is currently working on plans for a new format of stores specifically for urban areas. These new stores will be much smaller than a standard Target with a reduced SKU count. However, I think the downtown population [[both working and residential) will likely have to grow to make it attractive. Midtown might be more likely.

[douglasm]

That's why I was wondering about population density downtown. Gistok's point about downtown workers not shopping downtown is the one I was trying to make earlier. You need either an established destination shopping area [[which many downtown's aren't anymore) or a good sized residential population.

[BrushStart]

That's why I was wondering about population density downtown. Gistok's point about downtown workers not shopping downtown is the one I was trying to make earlier. You need either an established destination shopping area [[which many downtown's aren't anymore) or a good sized residential population.

It always comes back to the old catch 22, residents won't come because there isn't shopping, shops won't come because there aren't residents. A franchise like Target is going to have to take a risk. There's no better time to build on the momentum that is happening downtown right now. Quicken/BCBS/Galaxee employees would be more inclined to rent downtown if access to general shopping was available.

[Huggybear]

Target was formed in 1962 by Dayton's, a Minneapolis chain. It had nothing to do with Hudson's until Hudson's was acquired a lot later on. So maybe a spiritual cousin - but not a lineal descendant.

In answer to the purists, Target is a lineal descendant of Hudson's Basement Store.

[Nee]

If Target or Walmart could open a superstore in the city, where you can get groceries and household merchandise, I think it would be successful.

[douglasm]

I don't think Wal-Mart would be a good fit. Target is a bit more upscale, and has a store layout [[like the proposed Seattle store) that can be altered to fit a downtown footprint or fill an exsisting building. The thing I like about their Seattle plan is that they aren't building a stand alone store but fitting it into exsisting space. A stand alone would be just that, an oasis unto itself that would do nothing to aid other retailers in the area.

[stasu1213]

If you want downtown detroit to become a quaint unique place with boutiques and eateries you may want Target to be somewhere up Jefferson between Downtown and McDougall or up Woodward between Downtown and the Midtown area. Targets would kill any potential boutique or small clothing store that wil exist on Merchants Row. If Target has to be in the area then put it inside one of the vacant buildings or let Target buy the Kresge Place from the owner and Target could be in that location

[KarmicCurse]

Target has been experimenting with urban stores for a few years now. I have to give them credit for trying. There was an interesting article about how big box stores can be adapted to urban centers in Architectural Record a few years ago.

It begins with reducing the building's footprint. The stores are two levels with elevators and escalators that can carry shopping carts. There are at least two levels of parking below the entire span of the store. The street frontage is much more sidewalk friendly and human scale by incorporating much more fenestration, planters, benches. Some of them are built with an office or apartment complex on top. It's actually successful.

I think we would all like more unique boutiques but maybe they'll follow the big stores. As in the anchor effect that department stores have in a mall.

[BrushStart]

I think we would all like more unique boutiques but maybe they'll follow the big stores. As in the anchor effect that department stores have in a mall.

I agree. Botiques and Target are not competitors, rather have a mutual interest in attracting customers. In the 'burbs it's called a strip mall.

Target is not a competitor for a shop that makes hand-crafted jewelry, a specialty pastry shop, or a high fashion tailor/clothier. Botique shoppers are looking for botique items. There is no "quaint" little business that would open on lower Woodward that would normally be in direct competition with Target, which is a general products retailer. A botique electronics shop is the only place I can think of that could have a problem, and they would just need to differentiate themselves by offering high-end/specialized products and services.

[stasu1213]

I agree. Botiques and Target are not competitors, rather have a mutual interest in attracting customers. In the 'burbs it's called a strip mall.

Target is not a competitor for a shop that makes hand-crafted jewelry, a specialty pastry shop, or a high fashion tailor/clothier. Botique shoppers are looking for botique items. There is no "quaint" little business that would open on lower Woodward that would normally be in direct competition with Target, which is a general products retailer. A botique electronics shop is the only place I can think of that could have a problem, and they would just need to differentiate themselves by offering high-end/specialized products and services.

That is the reason why you dont see Targets in the Grosse Pointes, Birmingham, and Royal Oak. I say Target would do good on Jefferson near downtown or up Woodward near 8mile or at the gateway shopping center. That would put that light rail to good use. Target would also fit better in the Jefferson Village strip mall at Jefferson and St Jean. Formerly the Farmer Jacks location.

[BrushStart]

That is the reason why you dont see Targets in the Grosse Pointes, Birmingham, and Royal Oak. I say Target would do good on Jefferson near downtown or up Woodward near 8mile or at the gateway shopping center. That would put that light rail to good use. Target would also fit better in the Jefferson Village strip mall at Jefferson and St Jean. Formerly the Farmer Jacks location.

I don't disagree, but maybe I'm just a crazy fool who lives downtown. Downtown needs general retail shopping. By "downtown" I mean lower Wooward on the bottom two floors of one of those buildings. It has to be easy walking access to downtown's residential population. If you live downtown, E. Jefferson sucks. I almost never shop there because I might as well take a drive to the suburbs, which is what most people do.

A franchise is going to have to take a risk. Right now there are approximately 6,500-10,000 people living in what is usually defined as "downtown." Another 75k-100k live in the surrounding area. New retail developments have to take a highly-walkable approach to location selection, meaning that the majority of their customers can access their store by foot, while the building must still offer parking for car-dependants. If people have to drive from their highrise apartment building to get to the store, they won't go to it, they will drive to Livonia once a week instead.

A city has to master "urban", which means offering convenient retail at a pedestrian level. One should be able to walk from his/her downtown apartment and get basic food, clothing, toiletries, housewares, electronics, kitchen supplies, pet food, and a few specialty items without driving or scouring a series of liquor stores [[yes, that is what I usually have to do). This is why Quicken/BCBS employees can't be convinced to live in the city. Downtown lacks the basic retail necessary to support life in an urban area. Because a car is still required, living downtown loses its main draw, which is being car-free. Put a Target and a small grocer in on lower Woodward to complement the CVS pharmacy, and you have started the framework for building a dense residential core. Without it, it will never happen on any large scale.

[p1acebo]

I don't disagree, but maybe I'm just a crazy fool who lives downtown. Downtown needs general retail shopping. By "downtown" I mean lower Wooward on the bottom two floors of one of those buildings. It has to be easy walking access to downtown's residential population. If you live downtown, E. Jefferson sucks. I almost never shop there because I might as well take a drive to the suburbs, which is what most people do.

A franchise is going to have to take a risk. Right now there are approximately 6,500-10,000 people living in what is usually defined as "downtown." Another 75k-100k live in the surrounding area. New retail developments have to take a highly-walkable approach to location selection, meaning that the majority of their customers can access their store by foot, while the building must still offer parking for car-dependants. If people have to drive from their highrise apartment building to get to the store, they won't go to it, they will drive to Livonia once a week instead.

A city has to master "urban", which means offering convenient retail at a pedestrian level. One should be able to walk from his/her downtown apartment and get basic food, clothing, toiletries, housewares, electronics, kitchen supplies, pet food, and a few specialty items without driving or scouring a series of liquor stores [[yes, that is what I usually have to do). This is why Quicken/BCBS employees can't be convinced to live in the city. Downtown lacks the basic retail necessary to support life in an urban area. Because a car is still required, living downtown loses its main draw, which is being car-free. Put a Target and a small grocer in on lower Woodward to complement the CVS pharmacy, and you have started the framework for building a dense residential core. Without it, it will never happen on any large scale.

+1 to that

[DetroitPlanner]

One should be able to walk from his/her downtown apartment and get basic food, clothing, toiletries, housewares, electronics, kitchen supplies, pet food, and a few specialty items without driving or scouring a series of liquor stores [[yes, that is what I usually have to do). This is why Quicken/BCBS employees can't be convinced to live in the city. Downtown lacks the basic retail necessary to support life in an urban area. Because a car is still required, living downtown loses its main draw, which is being car-free. Put a Target and a small grocer in on lower Woodward to complement the CVS pharmacy, and you have started the framework for building a dense residential core. Without it, it will never happen on any large scale.

Amen to that, I would start off a bit smaller. Something like a Family Dollar or Dollar General would clean-up and prove that there is a market there. Family Dollar has not shied away from providing these basics. I was villified in the past for suggesting this, because folks see this and think automatically of crappy dollar stores that sell cheap insense or odd curios. These stores actually sell things that people need including name brand stuff like Pamolive Dishsoap or Hanes underwear. No its not like shopping at Hudsons, but it serves to provide expanded and quality goods to the Downtown market by a company that is not afraid to locate in poor neighborhoods. Another plus is they sell most of the grocery items that you can't get at places like Eastern Market, as well as small appliances and basic electronics.

[rb336]

Amen to that, I would start off a bit smaller. Something like a Family Dollar or Dollar General would clean-up and prove that there is a market there. Family Dollar has not shied away from providing these basics. I was villified in the past for suggesting this, because folks see this and think automatically of crappy dollar stores that sell cheap insense or odd curios. These stores actually sell things that people need including name brand stuff like Pamolive Dishsoap or Hanes underwear. No its not like shopping at Hudsons, but it serves to provide expanded and quality goods to the Downtown market by a company that is not afraid to locate in poor neighborhoods. Another plus is they sell most of the grocery items that you can't get at places like Eastern Market, as well as small appliances and basic electronics.

When you are trying to make the area attractive to folks with disposable incomes, you don't populate the area with dollar stores. Yes, someone will have to be brave enough to prove there is a market. Maybe Meijer or Target, or possible Busch's. DEGC or some such should be working on a package to entice someone to take a chance.

[DetroitPlanner]

When you are trying to make the area attractive to folks with disposable incomes, you don't populate the area with dollar stores. Yes, someone will have to be brave enough to prove there is a market. Maybe Meijer or Target, or possible Busch's. DEGC or some such should be working on a package to entice someone to take a chance.

This is the villification... Even though it says Dollar in the name. It is NOT a dollar store! Check the link I provided, you will see name brands, and stuff that costs more than a dollar. Maybe they should be like Aldi's and brand thier stuff under the more palatable Trader Joe's [[same company, same idea, different marketing).

[canuck]

Amen to that, I would start off a bit smaller. Something like a Family Dollar or Dollar General would clean-up and prove that there is a market there. Family Dollar has not shied away from providing these basics. I was villified in the past for suggesting this, because folks see this and think automatically of crappy dollar stores that sell cheap insense or odd curios. These stores actually sell things that people need including name brand stuff like Pamolive Dishsoap or Hanes underwear. No its not like shopping at Hudsons, but it serves to provide expanded and quality goods to the Downtown market by a company that is not afraid to locate in poor neighborhoods. Another plus is they sell most of the grocery items that you can't get at places like Eastern Market, as well as small appliances and basic electronics.

You are right about Dollar stores benefiting people especially immigrants in basic needs. I have found a lot of things in Dollar stores that were identical in a hardware store for 1/5 the price. Where does the money go? Think of retired CEO of Home Depot who after fie years at the helm received 130 million dollars for his services. That is a lot of cream off the profits and a hefty price to pay for Joe the Plumber, etc... A lot of products are not just made in China but also in Canada and the US as you suggest DetroitPlanner.

Also, there must be ways to provide incentives for national retailers to commit to a revitalized downtown. Poor transit versus a mania for personal commuting is a huge reason the lure of downtown diminished progressively. That is the main reason Kresge Foundation, Penske et al decided to go ahead and do something this late in the game. Greektown has managed to fight and strengthen its hold in spite of the decline. I think that buiding owners need to be more proactive in their search for tenants, create unexpected incentives to surprise consumers and investors alike. A big chunk of downtown might be lit with led systems that project down onto historic buildings while providing added security. One downtown Montreal project around Seville cinema was finally greenlighted by the city after a whole city block of old buildings was left practically empty for 15, 20 years. Some developers shy away from projects that dont follow trends while others seek a bit of danger for a higher return. I wonder how many highrises in downtown Detroit are owned by New York or Chicago concerns? Are they too far removed to care?

[DetroitDad]

I know the Fowler building went into foreclosure and has been snapped up by the Beal Group, but what's going on with the Tall-Eez Building? Have you guys checked them out lately? All the displays are gone, and the place looks empty. There are signs that read; "for lease", in the windows.

[erikd]

When you are trying to make the area attractive to folks with disposable incomes, you don't populate the area with dollar stores. Yes, someone will have to be brave enough to prove there is a market. Maybe Meijer or Target, or possible Busch's. DEGC or some such should be working on a package to entice someone to take a chance.

Forget about the big-box chains opening stores downtown. These stores operate on a large scale auto-centric suburban model. They do not work in a walkable dense urban setting. If you want to live next to a big-box store, stay in the suburbs.

I live downtown, I shop at Meijer and Target once in a while, and it takes me about 12-13 minutes to drive there from downtown. That is close enough for me. I have a shitload of friends and family living in the suburbs, and none of them can walk to a big-box store, so what is the difference? They can drive to Target or Meijer in 8 minutes, but it takes me 12 minutes. The extra 4 minute drive once a month is not an problem.

[BrushStart]

I live downtown, I shop at Meijer and Target once in a while, and it takes me about 12-13 minutes to drive there from downtown. That is close enough for me. I have a shitload of friends and family living in the suburbs, and none of them can walk to a big-box store, so what is the difference? They can drive to Target or Meijer in 8 minutes, but it takes me 12 minutes. The extra 4 minute drive once a month is not an problem.

What is the point of living downtown [[or in any city) if you need a car to attain basic ammenities? I don't want to drive 12-13 minutes anywhere, ever, unless I'm visting someone or going up north.

I pay a premium to live in the city because it has a lot to offer in terms of entertainment and proximity to work, but right now, downtown's urban viability is incomplete. I am not disgusted by "big box" retailers; I just wish they would take a chance on opening a downtown location so I could buy a freakin light bulb when my lamp burns out.

In cities, people expect to be able to walk to get basic living supplies. Detroit will struggle to develop a dense core without such retail. This is one situation where I say "build it, and they will come."

[Hermod]

What is the point of living downtown [[or in any city) if you need a car to attain basic ammenities? I don't want to drive 12-13 minutes anywhere, ever, unless I'm visting someone or going up north.

I pay a premium to live in the city because it has a lot to offer in terms of entertainment and proximity to work, but right now, downtown's urban viability is incomplete. I am not disgusted by "big box" retailers; I just wish they would take a chance on opening a downtown location so I could buy a freakin light bulb when my lamp burns out.

In cities, people expect to be able to walk to get basic living supplies. Detroit will struggle to develop a dense core without such retail. This is one situation where I say "build it, and they will come."

Lots of empty retail space downtown. You could open a hardware store and sell light bulbs. You should be in great shape and make a lot of money if "build it and they will come" is true.

[BrushStart]

Lots of empty retail space downtown. You could open a hardware store and sell light bulbs. You should be in great shape and make a lot of money if "build it and they will come" is true.

I get what you're saying Hermod, and yes, a hardware store would be great, but if I had the money and expertise, I would open up a general retailer instead. I think the demand for a basic amenities supplier on lower Woodward would have a lot of success going forward. It would have a monopoly on the downtown, midtown, and east riverfront residentail business. It would be surrounded by a growing CBD and would make the area attractive for new residents. If a big-box general retailer were to open on lower Woodward, it would be a staple in my meager life.

On a different note, anyone notice the construction going on with Club Bleu? I saw workers going in and out 2 days ago, and yesterday afternoon the sign was lit up. Their new website shows the venue will reopen this Fall. This will make for three electronic music venues on lower Woodward including Vain and Oslo. Great news for Detroit techno lovers!

[wolverine]

Forget about the big-box chains opening stores downtown. These stores operate on a large scale auto-centric suburban model. They do not work in a walkable dense urban setting. If you want to live next to a big-box store, stay in the suburbs.

I live downtown, I shop at Meijer and Target once in a while, and it takes me about 12-13 minutes to drive there from downtown. That is close enough for me. I have a shitload of friends and family living in the suburbs, and none of them can walk to a big-box store, so what is the difference? They can drive to Target or Meijer in 8 minutes, but it takes me 12 minutes. The extra 4 minute drive once a month is not an problem.

They do not work in an urban setting Whaaaat?

When I do bulk grocery shopping I take the subway. It drops me off in front of the store.

I also shop at my neighborhood Best Buy. It's just a couple blocks. It's extremely convenient

This Best Buy Store does not look auto-centric to me nor do tens of thousand of people have to drive to it. In fact it has 0 parking spaces:


Look at the acres of parking in front of this future downtown Target store

Source: wallyg on flickr

And this Aldi........how suburban!!!



That said, I hardly agree with that comment. Best Buy, Bed Bath and Beyond, Target, and Home Depot have all operated for over a decade now in dense urban settings, from downtowns filled with skyscrapers to neighborhood commercial districts. While some of the stores have parking on the roof, some of them don't have a single space. The bulk of their customers enter from a street side entrance and walk home with their purchases. While carrying bulky items might be a bit of a pain sometimes, you get used to it. You also find it's a good workout, and walking to the store is much healthier than driving

[fryar]

I agree with Wolverine. I used to do a fair bit of shopping in the Target and Best Buy locations in DC's whatchamacallit indoor mall development thing in the Columbia Heights neighborhood. There's also been a KMart for some years now in Penn Station in new York, and big box retailers like Best buy or Borders have stores in Manhattan that see a lot of foot traffic. It's not typical for those chains, but it's not unheard of either.

For my fellow lazy shlubs, instead of getting a good workout carrying your groceries home [[oh god) to your fifth-floor walkup [[shoot me now!), I recommend a good old-fashioned granny cart.