'Council locked, loaded' - Rochelle Riley

[RealityCheck]

Today's column strikes me as a forum-worthy discussion topic.

Gary Brown, Kwame Kenyatta, Charles Pugh and James Tate are usually armed. . . . And the Rev. Andre Spivey, pastor of St. Paul AME, said he plans to get his CCW permit before Thanksgiving.

. . . Kenyatta said that members sometimes must ward off irate citizens.

Cockrel won't say if he packs; Jones and Watson don't.

Spivey 'splains:

" I've talked with several incumbents, and the office presents some challenges. I don't feel I have to use it, but I'll feel more comfortable having it. . . . We're in a different age."

And how do we feel . . . more comfortable or concerned about the message this sends, the image this may reinforce?

Rochelle sees a tough call:

"It is quite the conundrum: To carry or not to carry in a city where gun violence is as prevalent as Temptations music, so mundane that children are used to it."

[ejames01]

Good for them!!

[gnome]

I shudder to think that MonCon, BRC or looney Martha-Rose were packing.

[crawford]

Isn't being a Reverend and carrying a weapon exclusively meant for killing just slightly contradictory?

I would imagine God wouldn't be cool with people walking around with instruments of death at the ready.

I really wish we would enter the civilized world and ban guns already, with exceptions for hunters, small business owners, and some waivers for public individuals with security concerns.

[detourdetroit]

i have to say this was one of the more surprising and depressing detroit articles i have read of late.

[Ray1936]

Substantial numbers of these "Reverends" have questionable theology degrees from questionable institutions.

[Buy American]

"And the Rev. Andre Spivey, pastor of St. Paul AME, said he plans to get his CCW permit before Thanksgiving.
"My members have been telling me for years to get one, before I even ran for council," he said. "It's not an indictment upon the citizens of Detroit but just for my own personal assurances. "

Sorry Reverend, it IS an indictment against Detroiters. What kind of message does it send to anyone around the country looking at the possibility of reserving a facility in Detroit for a conference or annual meeting? It screams ... DON'T COME TO DETROIT UNLESS YOU ARE PACKING BECAUSE IT'S NOT SAFE HERE.

Ray1936 you are right about these so called reverends. Most of them have tax free store front churches and diplomas from the internet.

[Det_ard]

Isn't being a Reverend and carrying a weapon exclusively meant for killing just slightly contradictory?

I would imagine God wouldn't be cool with people walking around with instruments of death at the ready.

I really wish we would enter the civilized world and ban guns already, with exceptions for hunters, small business owners, and some waivers for public individuals with security concerns.

If the Rev is planning on going out and gunning down some innocents, yes. If the Rev is hoping to protect his flock [[and himself) against the wolves, no.

[ejames01]

1 Samuel 17:39
And David girded his sword upon his armour, and he assayed to go; for he had not proved it. And David said unto Saul, I cannot go with these; for I have not proved them. And David put them off him.

Matthew 26:51-52
And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

According to Jesus, if you pull out your 9mm, there is a good chance that you might get shot.

Isn't being a Reverend and carrying a weapon exclusively meant for killing just slightly contradictory?

I would imagine God wouldn't be cool with people walking around with instruments of death at the ready.

I really wish we would enter the civilized world and ban guns already, with exceptions for hunters, small business owners, and some waivers for public individuals with security concerns.

[jt1]

"And the Rev. Andre Spivey, pastor of St. Paul AME, said he plans to get his CCW permit before Thanksgiving.
"My members have been telling me for years to get one, before I even ran for council," he said. "It's not an indictment upon the citizens of Detroit but just for my own personal assurances. "

Sorry Reverend, it IS an indictment against Detroiters. What kind of message does it send to anyone around the country looking at the possibility of reserving a facility in Detroit for a conference or annual meeting? It screams ... DON'T COME TO DETROIT UNLESS YOU ARE PACKING BECAUSE IT'S NOT SAFE HERE.

Ray1936 you are right about these so called reverends. Most of them have tax free store front churches and diplomas from the internet.

I know many people that have a CCW permit and carry. Many of them live in places like Troy, Novi, GP, etc.

Is there choice to carry saying the same thing about their respective cities? Funny how you will draw a conclusion if a Detroiter carries legally but I am sure you don't draw the same conclusion for people in other communities that choose to carry. I'm just curious why you don't make that assumption for everyone that carries.

[stasu1213]

I don't blame anyone who lives in detroit for carrying a gun.; I am a gun's rights advocate. I also think that a four to six week class should be given to all CCW holders. I would say have the same classes that police officers have when it comes to gun training and knowing how and when to shoot a gun. You don't want to shoot when in a rage. You don't want to shoot at a fleeing assailant in the night. Info like that should be taught in classes.

[jt1]

CCW applications for a one year period;

Alcona: 54
Alger: 49
Allegan: 279
Alpena: 100
.
Macomb: 3050
Oakland: 4380
Wastenaw: 722
Wayne: 9422

You can see all the number on a county by county basis here but it seems there aer tens of thousands of people telling others not to visit their community.: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...8_269128_7.pdf

This is for the period: 7/1/2007 - 6/30/08

Since I know that buyamerican [[cars only) doesn't much care for facts so I'm sure this will be glossed over.

[jt1]

Curretn report of CCWs by county;

Macomb: 19,820
Oakland: 30,291
Wayne: 39,005
Washtenaw: 5,173

When you consider population it looks I am told that people in Oakland and Macomb are telling me their county is too scary to visit. Of course I don't believe that but I wanted to mock BA's logic and 'message'.

Data may be found here: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...t_273948_7.pdf

[Buy American]

I know many people that have a CCW permit and carry. Many of them live in places like Troy, Novi, GP, etc.

Is there choice to carry saying the same thing about their respective cities? Funny how you will draw a conclusion if a Detroiter carries legally but I am sure you don't draw the same conclusion for people in other communities that choose to carry. I'm just curious why you don't make that assumption for everyone that carries.

Again jt...why am I not surprised that you choose to respond specifically to my post....you are as predictible as I said before.

Since Detroit already has a terrible reputation with murders, drive bys, robberies, stomping the elderly, and other crimes, when a politician comes out and declares they are packing when doing business in the council chambers or throughout the City of Detroit because they are afraid....when so called reverends are proud to say they will get CCW permits soon and will wear them under their robes in God's House, that sends a definite message to others outside the City. Yes, many many people have applied for or have CCW's in other counties, but I haven't heard any council members or men of God from Macomb, Oakland, or any other counties stating that fact out loud.

[ejames01]

Could it be that no one asked them?

Again jt...why am I not surprised that you choose to respond specifically to my post....you are as predictible as I said before.

Since Detroit already has a terrible reputation with murders, drive bys, robberies, stomping the elderly, and other crimes, when a politician comes out and declares they are packing when doing business in the council chambers or throughout the City of Detroit because they are afraid....when so called reverends are proud to say they will get CCW permits soon and will wear them under their robes in God's House, that sends a definite message to others outside the City. Yes, many many people have applied for or have CCW's in other counties, but I haven't heard any council members or men of God from Macomb, Oakland, or any other counties stating that fact out loud.

[sumas]

I was a victim of a violant crime when I was about twenty. I debated with myself for maybe ten years about whether to carry a gun. My decision was no gun.

I grew up in a family that hunted and am no stranger to weapons. In fact I am a damn fine marksman.

I worried that I would use a concealed weapon given the chance. My purse isn't worth a person's life and my soul. Even if that person is pure scum.

My sons have taken gun safety training and both own guns. Now that I think of it their guns are registered to us. Since they are now grown I must remember to ask them to transfer registration.

It is sad to hear that our elected officials want to carry concealed weapons. I support the right to bear arms but without extensive training in the appropriate use, its like giving candy to babies

[EastsideAl]

Not to comment on Rev. Spivey and his actions one way or another, but I thought the record should be set straight here in one respect. St. Paul AME is a well-established church with a lengthy history. I certainly remember it being there from my childhood, as we had an east side Cub Scout get-together there. Rev. Spivey is a graduate of Morehouse College in Atlanta, and has a Masters in Divinity from Colgate Rochester Divinity School, the oldest Baptist seminary in the country whose founding was associated with both the Univ. of Rochester and Colgate Univ.

[Johnnny5]

I was a victim of a violant crime when I was about twenty. I debated with myself for maybe ten years about whether to carry a gun. My decision was no gun.

I grew up in a family that hunted and am no stranger to weapons. In fact I am a damn fine marksman.

I worried that I would use a concealed weapon given the chance. My purse isn't worth a person's life and my soul. Even if that person is pure scum.

My sons have taken gun safety training and both own guns. Now that I think of it their guns are registered to us. Since they are now grown I must remember to ask them to transfer registration.

It is sad to hear that our elected officials want to carry concealed weapons. I support the right to bear arms but without extensive training in the appropriate use, its like giving candy to babies

Unless you are talking about handguns [[or live outside of Michigan) your firearms are not registered to anyone. There is only a record of the original buyer or if a sales transaction is handled by a licensed dealer. In you do live in Michigan, and you are talking about handguns, make sure to follow the correct procedures to transfer ownership [[Purchase permit or CPL with sales record).

[Downriviera]

I suspect that many of these so called reverends are packing to protect themselves from irate husbands.

[BVos]

Can you imagine if things get heated at a Council meeting? You could have a duel right there in chambers or maybe outside on the sidewalk/street right outside the CAYMC. Now that would be Detroit style!

[RealityCheck]

Comes now Bill Shea, via his blog:

How long before the national media, talk show hosts and blogosphere use [this] to bludgeon us some more?

The Associated Press distributed a short story based on Riley’s column, which Google News shows was picked up today by the Chicago Tribune. That’s the only one I see outside of Detroit so far. Perhaps it will flame out before the rest of the nation notices.

Otherwise, it feels like fodder for humiliation from across the entire ideological spectrum. And a Jay Leno joke.

Bonus for clicking thru to the Crain's post:

Let us slide for a moment into a flight of fancy and imagine what sort of guns [5] Detroit journalists might carry.

[Supersport]

What the anti-gun crowd must come to accept is that there is a constantly growing number of people LEGALLY carrying guns. While at the Wayne County building last week, I stopped into the Concealed Pistol Licensing office. During the 10 minutes I was there, there were approximately 12 others in line. Surprising to me, about 3/4 of them were women. Also, of those in line, there were 4-5 different ethnicities among them.

We live in a violent society, and it's not the law abiding citizens that are to blame for it. There is however a growing number of bad guys getting shot when they try to carjack the wrong person, snatch the wrong person's purse, and break into the wrong person's home. While I'm by no means suggesting it's ok to take somebody's life over material things, what people seem to forget is that these perps breaking into homes, stealing cars, and robbing people are armed more often than not.

I had my CPL long before becoming an officer. I thought I knew Detroit, made my trips around all parts of Detroit as often as possible. Seeing what I have seen now, knowing what I know, I wouldn't live in ANY major city in the U.S. without carrying a gun. When I visited Chicago early this year, I didn't even hesitate, my gun was one of the first things I packed. While your typical CPL carrying citizen can not enjoy the same previledge, that will hopefully soon change. Chicago suburbs are already beginning to give in to the peoples argument that they want to own guns. My friend lives in a northern/bordering suburb of Chicago, which recently granted handgun ownership.

It was perhaps a year or two ago, but either the Freep or Detnews did an article on the growing number of people in Michigan obtaining their license to carry. I can't recall the exact number, but it was extremely high. To the point that with every visit to the grocery store, local mall, or movie theatre, there are likely a handful of people carrying guns.

I've always wondered what the big fear about people owning guns, or even legally carrying guns. Perhaps there is some misconception that because you have a license to carry, that gives you the right to kill. You should somebody, you are charged. The county prosecutor decides whether or not the charges will stand and whether the shooter will go to trial. If you shoot somebody unjustifiably, license or not, your ass ends up in the same prison as the thug robbing people at gun point. If anything, legally carrying a gun carries with it MORE responsibility than somebody who stuff a pistol in their waistband ilegally.

It's not exactly easy to get a license to carry either. You have to be a law abiding citizen with a squeaky clean record, or you'll never get one. Then, if you do get one, and then slip up in the least, you'll either be fined, fined/go to jail, and likely lose the license. I think there are many misconceptions out there about both gun ownership, as well as obtaining a license to carry a gun.

[RickBeall]

People have this odd idea that Christians are not allowed to defend themselves.

[detroitchef]

yeah, I am sure Jesus was kidding with all that 'turn the other cheek' stuff. Probably carried a Tek-9 himself. No wait, he was a Jew right? Uzi all the way.

It's not the fact that council members feel the need to arm themselves that scares me, I am sure a LOT of people want to off them based off their dismal job performance. It's the fact that someone, somewhere took a look at those cretins and said "Yeah, they look sane and responsible, let's approve this CCW permit!" Can you just picture Kenyatta in that 4-6 week class? I wonder how her got the hearing protector muffs over that silly hat of his?

[d.mcc]

How could anyone have misunderstood the founders?