'The city is in worse condition than I knew' -- Time blogger

[RealityCheck]

Wait a sec before anyone jumps on Karen Dybis as a naive Grosse Pointe Woods-er. She frankly acknowledges that a SalvArmy ride-along was eye-opening. That's brave 'n good, to me.

So I link to today's post as worth reading, worth responding to [[volunteers needed) and as evidence that Assignment Detroit elevates itself above a parachute-in journalism stunt.

Karen will post again tomorrow [[Nov. 5) on mobile soup kitchens.

The ride pushes your buttons. . . . I realized how ungrateful I am. Because the city is in worse condition than I knew. Because I was on the inside, those in need on the outside. Because I could only give a few hours when the Bed and Bread truck could have used my help all day.

. . . The three trucks have some 45 stops to make. They start around noon and finish about 6 p.m. They serve 5,000 meals daily. Some stops have a dozen people to feed; others top out at 50 and more.

[Lonyo exit]

It sounds like the very definition of a parachute journalist – insulated woman from Grosse Pointe drops into the city and discovers, much to her surprise, that there are poor people here.

[Detroitnerd]

Lonyo exit: It could have been worse; she wasn't from France.

[Swimmaven]

It sounds like the very definition of a parachute journalist – insulated woman from Grosse Pointe drops into the city and discovers, much to her surprise, that there are poor people here.

Drop the attitude and the defensiveness. This mean comment is outdated and serves no purpose.

It is normal to stay away from danger or the perception of it. That kind of stress suicided several of my friends and passed away quite a few others. People just do not want to live around poor people. They want to help, but mostly it has to be indirect. A non-poor person does not have the tools to deal with abject desperation and the criminalness that ususally follows.

The city is in ruins. It is depressingly sad. I do not know what to suggest to redefine the area. Farms? prairies?

[Detroitnerd]

Oh, yes. It's just fine that somebody lives on the border of the city, probably drives through the sunken expressways all the time, yet, confronted with the mind-numbing poverty of the surface streets a brisk walk away, is surprised that it's that bad.

Usually, you have to bring in somebody from a few states away to get that kind of reaction, but here we have somebody who lives right there and has no idea what it's like. For me, that sort of sums up just how stark the regional divide is.

Anyway, at least she's learning. Good for her.

[Lonyo exit]

Swimmaven,
If anyone sounds defensive, it is you. I made an obvious observation. Grow up.

[Bearinabox]

People just do not want to live around poor people. They want to help, but mostly it has to be indirect. A non-poor person does not have the tools to deal with abject desperation and the criminalness that ususally follows.

Speak for yourself, please.

[RealityCheck]

. . . she's learning. Good for her.

My point.

Karen Dybis could've written the same post without acknowledging this:

I realized how ungrateful I am. Because the city is in worse condition than I knew.

But she didn't leave that unstated. And this public confirmation of a perception gap that's closing is something I cheer, not jeer with "an obvious observation."

The post salutes the Salvation Army, makes a pitch for volunteers and shares personal reflections from a drive that this suburban mom concedes is outside her normal experience.

Why isn't that something good, really? I'm not asking to instigate flame-throwing -- I honestly don't get it.

I value this forum, which I've participated in since fall 2003, but wish potentially constructive discussions didn't sometimes get undercut by a tone of . . . here goes, might as well say it frankly . . . smug superiority. Sometimes.

. . . she's learning. Good for her.

And good for you, Detroitnerd.

[EastsideAl]

She's supposed to be a journalist, worked for 5 years for the Detroit News as a finance writer, of all things, lives within spitting distance of the poorest large city in America, and yet she seems to have no idea what the place actually looks like or who actually resides there. I live in the city, closer to downtown than Alter Rd., and I sure as hell am aware what social and economic conditions are in GP Woods. But she sounds like she's never really thought of what the world is like over here on the other side of Moross. So she's shocked, shocked I say, to discover that all those stories her fellow journalists have been publishing about massive unemployment and poverty actually mean that the city has a lot of poor people in it, and that a lot of poor people with no resources and no income may actually need some food.

If it wasn't so sad to the point of being nearly enraging it would read like a parody. I'm happy, I guess, for all the help we can get, but she really does come off sounding insular and clueless, and just a bit dimwitted.

[Lonyo exit]

Reality Check,

You and Detroitnerd are correct that, on the one hand, she at least is learning. And good for her that she's at least leaving her comfort zone and trying to open her eyes.

On the other hand, it's pretty appalling to grow up just on the border of Detroit and not realize how life is for hundreds of thousands of people. Most of us would be embarrassed to publicly profess such aloofness to the suffering of others just down the street. Her admission has a Marie Antoinette quality to it. How do you grow up in the region and not realize what things are like here? How insulated can one be?

[bartock]

Reality Check,

You and Detroitnerd are correct that, on the one hand, she at least is learning. And good for her that she's at least leaving her comfort zone and trying to open her eyes.

On the other hand, it's pretty appalling to grow up just on the border of Detroit and not realize how life is for hundreds of thousands of people. Most of us would be embarrassed to publicly profess such aloofness to the suffering of others just down the street. Her admission has a Marie Antoinette quality to it. How do you grow up in the region and not realize what things are like here? How insulated can one be?

I live in Harper Woods and work downtown. Most days it is easier for me to weave my way down side streets than taking I-94 or even Jefferson Ave. But, taking I-94 or Jefferson Ave to get to/from home is a wee different than going down Charlevoix [[in the morning...and with the exception of Waldorf/Indian Village) or taking Kercheval back [[on both sides of Chrysler). Mack and Harper Aves. are not pretty in some spots, but compared to the other two streets, they are OK.

My guess is that the author isn't talking about the blight you can see off of a main drag like Mack, Gratiot [[not very close to Grosse Pointe, but you get my drift), Jefferson. I can see where someone would not have a full grasp of what is going on in some of those East Side pockets of third-worldness, which is exactly what it is. I mean, just because someone can drive down Chalmers off Jefferson towards Mack, I wouldn't knock 'em for not doing it. Just because someone can decide to go South off of Alter, doesn't mean they will. I imagine since childhood their parents have ingrained in them not to travel down certain roads. Just saying...

[SWMAP]

You know, I have lived in Detroit all of my life except for college. I have lived in SW Detroit since 1970. But even I am aghast at what Detroit has become. When I drove through Brightmoor recently, I was quite afraid that I would be jumped. When I drove to the UPS depot on Cicotte and saw entire burned-out blocks of what were once solid, two-family brick houses owned by immigrant Poles, I was aghast. Around Cicotte, just 5 years ago it didn't look like this.This is end times!

Why burn solid housing stock? What is there in the Detroit psychology that says to destroy? Don't we see it in our schools - buildings destroyed - and right over the border in Grosse Pointe, the schools are from my grandfather's time and very lovingly kept. And kids educated in those old buildings [[such as aren't good enough for Detroit kids) are getting the top scores.

[EastsideAl]

My guess is that the author isn't talking about the blight you can see off of a main drag like Mack, Gratiot [[not very close to Grosse Pointe, but you get my drift), Jefferson. I can see where someone would not have a full grasp of what is going on in some of those East Side pockets of third-worldness, which is exactly what it is. I mean, just because someone can drive down Chalmers off Jefferson towards Mack, I wouldn't knock 'em for not doing it. Just because someone can decide to go South off of Alter, doesn't mean they will. I imagine since childhood their parents have ingrained in them not to travel down certain roads. Just saying...

Perhaps I'm a little thrown off by having grown up and lived on the east side for all these years, and being 5 generations in here with family spread out from St. Clair Shores to downtown, but I tend to think of this all being one big common area, one place, the east side of the city, the various Pointes, southern Macomb. Hell, my great-grandfather once owned some significant pieces of what's now Harper Woods and East Detroit [[ummm... Eastpointe... heh heh), in addition to land in what's now the Hayes-Kelly area, and houses on Eastlawn, Newport, and Chalmers. But leaving geographic proximity aside for the moment, it doesn't seem like you could pay attention to the news around here and not know these things. Unless you were in some sort of willful denial.

I see the idea of the "third-world" invoked all the time to describe conditions in Detroit. And on the surface level of poverty and desperation it does seem an apt comparison. However, the main difference between third-world cities and Detroit is that third-world cities are almost all suffering from OVER-population. The richest people often live near the center of these cities too. The hollowed out donut city, with most of the wealth having travelled to the periphery surrounding a once-prosperous under-populated core area largely peopled by the poor and destitute, really seems to be a primarily American phenomenon.

[gnome]

A while ago I learned the difference between knowing something and KNOWING something. You can know about getting robbed, but until you get robbed, you don't know about getting robbed. Same goes for burying a wife and child, same goes for a lot of things.

The same thing with poverty around here, sounds like some folks have driven by it enough that they think they know. But it isn't until you come face-to-nose with the odor of poverty that the reality becomes real.

I know that sounds like word games, but I think the Times gal just got a big wiff of real.

[RealityCheck]

Good discussion. Now I'm learning, too. [[Thanks, Al and SWMAP.)

Doesn't sound like word games at all, gnome -- more like insightful distinctions, eloquently stated.

Here's one face-to-nose takeaway Karen shared that's not something any of us could glean rolling down Mack, Gratiot, Chalmers or south of Alter:

A handful of food was met with a quiet greeting and, more often, a blessing for those offering it.

I agree with bartok that "the author isn't talking about the blight you can see off of a main drag." In fact, as I went back to confirm, she never even alludes to physical blight -- just human plight.

When she uses the phrase "Detroit's most troubled neighborhoods," Karen is talking about impoverished, hungry children, women and men.

“If they ask for another meal, we give them an extra meal,” Sullivan said. “We know that might be breakfast the next day.”

Respectfully, I suggest that "insular and clueless, and just a bit dimwitted" are unjustifiably harsh descriptions for a writer who tells readers she was "feeling queasy, a mix of grim realization at what I'm watching and my own discomfort."

I regret, EastsideAl, you felt "If it wasn't so sad to the point of being nearly enraging it would read like a parody."

In any event, I'll add the Part 2 link to this thread Thursday . . . and look forward to more healthy dialogue. .

[RickBeall]

It would probably be a life altering experience for anyone to go out with the Salvation Army ride-along, even the hardened criminals on this site.

[digitalvision]

SWMAP, it's because it's not the buildings, it's the culture, as you probably have already figured out. Education is at such a low priority for poor families when it should be top - but they're too busy either surviving or dealing with addiction. In many ways, as much as I dislike the school funding of proposal A, it's highlighted a fact - it's not about how much money a school district has, it's about the parents and families within it. You can't buy a commitment by parents that hell or high water their kid is gonna make it.

As to the seeing of Detroit - I know many people who are like this woman. Her reaction is among the most tolerant of what I'm used to hearing.

We are so disconnected from each other, and that's part of our problem. Not only city and suburb, but suburb to suburb, race to race, socio-economic class to class - and people tend to fear what they don't know. Also, it's a helluva lot easier to just not acknowledge the issue than deal with it.

[bartock]

Perhaps I'm a little thrown off by having grown up and lived on the east side for all these years, and being 5 generations in here with family spread out from St. Clair Shores to downtown, but I tend to think of this all being one big common area, one place, the east side of the city, the various Pointes, southern Macomb. Hell, my great-grandfather once owned some significant pieces of what's now Harper Woods and East Detroit [[ummm... Eastpointe... heh heh), in addition to land in what's now the Hayes-Kelly area, and houses on Eastlawn, Newport, and Chalmers. But leaving geographic proximity aside for the moment, it doesn't seem like you could pay attention to the news around here and not know these things. Unless you were in some sort of willful denial.

I see the idea of the "third-world" invoked all the time to describe conditions in Detroit. And on the surface level of poverty and desperation it does seem an apt comparison. However, the main difference between third-world cities and Detroit is that third-world cities are almost all suffering from OVER-population. The richest people often live near the center of these cities too. The hollowed out donut city, with most of the wealth having travelled to the periphery surrounding a once-prosperous under-populated core area largely peopled by the poor and destitute, really seems to be a primarily American phenomenon.

I'm new here, obviously [[but have been observing for a while), but I think you are right in the sense that perhaps the third world description is a little tired in the U.S. and certainly inaccurate by your insightful and I would say accurate observation. Sadly, I think there are areas I have seen recently that may be more accurately described as "urban Appalachia" for the fact that the people there do not seem to know what is going on just a few miles from them and tend to be led like sheep by their local pastors.

[bartock]

I'm new here, obviously [[but have been observing for a while), but I think you are right in the sense that perhaps the third world description is a little tired in the U.S. and certainly inaccurate by your insightful and I would say accurate observation. Sadly, I think there are areas I have seen recently that may be more accurately described as "urban Appalachia" for the fact that the people there do not seem to know what is going on just a few miles from them and tend to be led like sheep by their local pastors.

in immediate retrospect, I only say the pastor thing from limited observations/"interviews" of several individuals who live there.

[BVos]

I for one am glad that the Time blogger took a ride with the Salvation Army truck. It's about time people start seeing the real Detroit and opening up their eyes to what's really going on here. When you start seeing stuff like this and in large scale this is when barriers of race, suburb/city, education, class, political party, etc. are let down and you start caring about humans and humanity not the predispositions you've gathered through life.

It is Detroit, no matter how many Indian Villages, Palmer Woods, etc. there are. You can't get around it and it would be inhuman to not cover it. This is reality and it's a tragedy that no one seems to care about. Hopefully more people will have their eyes opened up to this stuff, put aside whatever blinders keep them from doing something about it, and get to work.

[Cooper]

I for one am glad that the Time blogger took a ride with the Salvation Army truck. It's about time people start seeing the real Detroit and opening up their eyes to what's really going on here. When you start seeing stuff like this and in large scale this is when barriers of race, suburb/city, education, class, political party, etc. are let down and you start caring about humans and humanity not the predispositions you've gathered through life.

It is Detroit, no matter how many Indian Villages, Palmer Woods, etc. there are. You can't get around it and it would be inhuman to not cover it. This is reality and it's a tragedy that no one seems to care about. Hopefully more people will have their eyes opened up to this stuff, put aside whatever blinders keep them from doing something about it, and get to work.

Well said, BVos. The author may be more sheltered than she ought to be, but she's honest and sharing an authentic experience that more people should have.

[DetroitDad]

Many of my peers growing up in suburbia were strictly forbidden from going anywhere near Detroit. When they came to visit when I first moved here, they were overly surprised that I lived near the same Grand Rive Avenue, Plymouth Road, Seven Mile, or Michigan Avenue that they knew of over in Novi, Canton, or Livonia. Some had no idea we had skyscrapers in Michigan.

There is no doubt in my mind that those individuals would never have been to Detroit, besides going to a game, had it not been for them knowing someone here. In fact, their parents hated it, and one actually refused to pick up his daughter when her car broke down because he wanted to teach her a lesson about going into such a dangerous area.

Ironically, it was in the outer suburbs that his daughter got raped, got a DUI, totalled a car, and became addicted to drugs in. It seems the real problems in our lives, the things we worry about so often, almost always come when and where we least expect them.

Anyways, this article should surprise no one.

[rooms222]

Things do seem to be getting worse quickly.....My second favorite Chinese Restaurant is Sun China at McNichols and Telegraph. It is in Detroit, but had customers from both the City and Redford. A year ago I went there and noticed they were putting in bulletproof glass for the first time. Last New Year's Eve, I noticed a security guard at 8 PM, but chalked it up to the holiday. Went last night at 7 and they now need a guard in the parking lot to protect the cars, even on a weekday. This is a restaurant on a busy intersection with frequent visits from police as well......

[mauser]

Things do seem to be getting worse quickly....

...+1

I agree. Even areas I have defended as " not that bad " in the past are scaring the crap out of me lately. Armed robberies in broad daylight involving 6 or 7 young teens... just nutz. People getting jacked at gas stations in the middle of the day. All my friends have scary stories lately.

- and I should add, they all own weapons with fully legal CCW documentation, and were all carrying when they were robbed. What are you supposed to do against multiple assailants tho ? Hand them your shit, thats what.

A real horror show.

[RickBeall]

The same is true in Hamtramck. Everyone is sticking it out, but everyone is fortifying and arming their house. At our polling place, 3 of the people manning the booths had their B&E/mugging story to tell. A burglar broke into our house a month ago. We had a burglar alarm which did not seem to deter him, but my wife's screams caused him to flee. There was nothing between her and the burglar except a turn in the hallway.