Hillary on ice

**Sstashmoo** · November-03-09, 10:06 AM

Very thin ice.

She is now over in Israel trying to take a tough stance with the oppressive right wing government in power, incidentally the most powerful lobby in our government. I have to hand it to her for trying to do the right thing, but unbeknown to her apparently, she is committing political suicide.

""MARRAKECH, Morocco â€“ Trying to mute Arab criticism that the Obama administration had retreated from its tough stance
on Israeli settlements, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton on Monday softened her praise for Israel's offer to restrain new housing in Palestinian areas."

""While Israel was moving in the right direction in its offer to restrict but not stop the settlements, Clinton said, its offer "falls far short" of U.S. expectations."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091102/..._af/af_clinton

**d.mcc** · November-03-09, 11:26 AM

How is this political suicide?

**Sstashmoo** · November-03-09, 12:18 PM

Quote: "How is this political suicide?"

Ask Jimmy Carter or Gerald Ford.

**d.mcc** · November-03-09, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "How is this political suicide?"

Ask Jimmy Carter or Gerald Ford.

The same Jimmy Carter who won a Nobel Prize for his work in trying to stabilize the region? The same Jimmy Carter who is still called on to this very day for his mediating skills in hostile regions? That Jimmy Carter? Or is there another one? The same Carter who was an integral player in the development of Habitat for Humanity? The same Jimmy Carter whose all-around peace keeping and humanitarian efforts since he left office have led him to be widely renowned as one of the most successful ex-presidents in US history?

We're talking about that Jimmy Carter right?

**elganned** · November-03-09, 12:45 PM

The same Jimmy Carter who lost his bid for a second term because he pissed off the Israelis. Yeah, that Jimmy Carter.

Sstashmoo, she knows. She's just banking on actually being able to get something started between the Israelis and the Palestinians; if she does, all will be forgiven--at least here at home.

Plus she has her marching orders from The Obama Boss, and either has to toe the line or resign. Not a palatable choice, I think.

littlebuddy · November-03-09, 02:11 PM

We all know what the answer is, Israel needs to give up all the land back to the pre-1967 borders, which includes alot of Jerusalem. This is the only answer that will make the Arab/Muslim nations happy[[sort of). What will the Arabs give up for peace, basically nothing and the peace they offer is a false peace. Why the U.S. State Dept. is so insistent on this is always been a mystery to me. Presidents seem to fall inline behind this thinking so easy.

ccbatson · November-03-09, 04:40 PM

The answer is one of two possibilities...win, or lose the war, then talk terms.

I vote for winning it.

The problem is doing neither and being stuck in perpetual conflict.

**d.mcc** · November-03-09, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

The answer is one of two possibilities...win, or lose the war, then talk terms.

I vote for winning it.

The problem is doing neither and being stuck in perpetual conflict.

What war are you talking about???

ccbatson · November-03-09, 04:47 PM

The Arab Israeli wars that started in the late sixties but were never resolved. Now they involve Palestinians as proxies for Syria, Iran, and probably Saudi Arabia on some levels.

**d.mcc** · November-03-09, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

The Arab Israeli wars that started in the late sixties but were never resolved. Now they involve Palestinians as proxies for Syria, Iran, and probably Saudi Arabia on some levels.

Since you were so versed on the rules of war in another thread? Do you care to tell us when a Formal Declaration of War was Declared? Have there been any Peace Treaties? Armistices?

ccbatson · November-03-09, 05:02 PM

Bullets flew, troops invaded...that be war...formal or otherwise.

**d.mcc** · November-03-09, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

Bullets flew, troops invaded...that be war...formal or otherwise.

No sir...that is not a war...

According to your very own posts in another thread, you speak of the rules of war. Based on your previous statements, and using your own logic; This infers that you believe in the rules of war, as a civilized and logical man. Therefore, with no formal declaration of war, then no "war" exists. Conflict perhaps, but no war to speak of.

ccbatson · November-03-09, 05:08 PM

Tell that to the invading masses instead of defending yourself.

**d.mcc** · November-03-09, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

Tell that to the invading masses instead of defending yourself.

I am merely using your logic Doctor. It is nice to see that you side with the Palestinians and Lebanese though

ccbatson · November-03-09, 05:13 PM

First blood was from the Arab states. Regardless, once started you either win or lose.

**d.mcc** · November-03-09, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

First blood was from the Arab states. Regardless, once started you either win or lose.

Who had a brand new country plopped down in existing territories? By your logic, those pesky revolutionists paling around New England in the 1770's were terrorists then right?

**gibran** · November-03-09, 08:58 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ews-army-judge

Right wingers from Israel, backed by AIPAC and others vs Jstreet and the voices of soical justice on the left of the conflict... JSTREET is the answer..our congress is forever afraid if the AIPAC groups to helop ISrael's viable health...read Mother's Jones Article on AIPAC [[even though an left mag. )

we can debate who stearted what ..history will reveal truths..but the real questionis what to do going forward? There is a new voice for Jewish Justice [[JSTREET and others)...these need to be backed, at let AIPAC and their hard right stance fade away...but that will be hard as long as Israel keeps electing Bibi and the likes..

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/13/ma...2&pagewanted=4

**gibran** · November-03-09, 09:01 PM

and cc while I understand your perspective, saying that all Palestinians are proxies for other countries dehumanizes their legitimate misery and concerns. That is like saying all Jewish voices are represented by AIPAC.

**gibran** · November-03-09, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

The Arab Israeli wars that started in the late sixties but were never resolved. Now they involve Palestinians as proxies for Syria, Iran, and probably Saudi Arabia on some levels.

The 1956 War

From 1949 to 1956 the armed truce between Israel and the Arabs, enforced in part by the UN forces, was punctuated by raids and reprisals. Among the world powers, the United States, Great Britain, and France sided with Israel, while the Soviet Union supported Arab demands. Tensions mounted during 1956 as Israel became convinced that the Arabs were preparing for war. The nationalization of the Suez Canal by Egypt's Gamal Abdal Nasser in July, 1956, resulted in the further alienation of Great Britain and France, which made new agreements with Israel.
On Oct. 29, 1956, Israeli forces, directed by Moshe Dayan, launched a combined air and ground assault into Egypt's Sinai peninsula. Early Israeli successes were reinforced by an Anglo-French invasion along the canal. Although the action against Egypt was severely condemned by the nations of the world, the cease-fire of Nov. 6, which was promoted by the United Nations with U.S. and Soviet support, came only after Israel had captured several key objectives, including the Gaza strip and Sharm el Sheikh, which commanded the approaches to the Gulf of Aqaba. Israel withdrew from these positions in 1957, turning them over to the UN emergency force after access to the Gulf of Aqaba, without which Israel was cut off from the Indian Ocean, had been guaranteed.

**gibran** · November-03-09, 09:15 PM

cc seems they won it [[ the war) ..they control the water, economics, travel, building and the debate...and still get billions from us each year to build and protect their conquest...guess to the victors goes the spoils, as atlas shruggs again, in disbelief...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8341233.stm

ccbatson · November-05-09, 10:23 PM

In the occupied territory..a victory means that the enemy is defeated or surrenders such that they are no longer a threat...clearly that has not been accomplished.

**elganned** · November-06-09, 08:12 AM

So you essentially endorse the extermination or expulsion of all Palestinians in the occupied territories?

ccbatson · November-06-09, 05:45 PM

The leadership, including the regimes in Iran and Syria...cut off the head.

**maxx** · November-06-09, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by elganned

The same Jimmy Carter who lost his bid for a second term because he pissed off the Israelis. Yeah, that Jimmy Carter.

Sstashmoo, she knows. She's just banking on actually being able to get something started between the Israelis and the Palestinians; if she does, all will be forgiven--at least here at home.

Plus she has her marching orders from The Obama Boss, and either has to toe the line or resign. Not a palatable choice, I think.

Shall we discuss Colin Powell's place in the shrub's admin.?

**elganned** · November-06-09, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by maxx

Shall we discuss Colin Powell's place in the shrub's admin.?

Point well taken. Loyally followed his mandate from his chief and was left twisting slowly in the wind... So maybe Hillary needs to worry, after all...