How Ayn Rand Became an American Icon

[elganned]

It's the death of conservative intellectualism, specifically, there are no more William F. Buckley's around to try and keep it focused and in check. As much as I disagreed with Buckley's entire philpsophy, I can respect the intellect without buying the message.

Well, there's always George Will. Not the depth of thought of Buckley, but equal in articulation and one of the most able at formulating the language to convey a point while neither dumbing it down nor rendering it overly erudite. A master of English usage and a joy to read, even when my own position is 180 degrees opposed.

[rb336]

"Selfishness is good, greed is admirable and altruism is evil."

The mantra of the socially disenfranchised.

no, the definition of a sociopath

[elganned]

Oh, and as for Rand...her writing is tedious, her ideas shallow and ill-conceived, and her social outlook stunningly stunted. I give her a D-.

[Lorax]

Well, there's always George Will. Not the depth of thought of Buckley, but equal in articulation and one of the most able at formulating the language to convey a point while neither dumbing it down nor rendering it overly erudite. A master of English usage and a joy to read, even when my own position is 180 degrees opposed.

I agree George Will has the language skills, but often flogs the tired ideology of the right to such a point that I need a break from him- often.

[Stosh]

First clip is accurate but incomplete. The second is opinion and based on nothing.

Which, not suprisingly, accurately describes every argument you've ever made on this board. Here's a nice little poem I found.

Yesterday, upon DYES,
I met a man who's posts depress
He depressed me once again today
I wish, I wish he’d go away...

[Diehard]

Which, not suprisingly, accurately describes every argument you've ever made on this board. Here's a nice little poem I found.

Yesterday, upon DYES,
I met a man who's posts depress
He depressed me once again today
I wish, I wish he’d go away...

Oh, now you've done it. He's going to come back with his standard "All you libs can ever do is attack the messenger" line.

[ccbatson]

First, you must understand the terms in question....Altruism, as used by Rand, means sacrifice of one's self interest for another. Further interpretation on a philosophical level if you don't hold individual rights and self interest as the highest value, then you don't value liberty and freedom, what follows is the possibility that the interest of others supercede individual rights and this can be imposed by some authority other than the individual, this leads to a collective run by a state authority, and in time and progressively, to slavery...WHICH IS EVIL.

Charity and generosity are highly commendable values in this philosophy, but NOT higher than the value of liberty and self interest.

[ccbatson]

Here is a dictionary definition:

1. the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others [[opposed to egoism ).
2. Animal Behavior. behavior by an animal that may be to its disadvantage but that benefits others of its kind, as a warning cry that reveals the location of the caller to a predator.

[Lorax]

Here is a dictionary definition:

1. the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others [[opposed to egoism ).
2. Animal Behavior. behavior by an animal that may be to its disadvantage but that benefits others of its kind, as a warning cry that reveals the location of the caller to a predator.

Don't bats just fly with their mouths open....to catch insects?

The definition of Objectivism. Don't share.

[ccbatson]

That was the dictionary definition, if you take issue with it, I am not the target of your scorn.

[mjs]

If George Washington was personally a horse's ass, does that diminish his accomplishments or invalidate his dedication to values like liberty?

Yes.

I think it was right before Valley Forge that the Army had suffered a long string of costly defeats and many times more were dying from freezing, starvation, and wretched diseases. Morale was low, Army pay was several months behind, very few had shoes for the long marches through the snow and mud, and the majority of his men were at the end of their enlistment. The British were well aware of this and were waiting the Continental forces out as they were sure they'd go home en masse when their enlistment periods ended. Using his popularity among the men, Washington rallied the troops and convinced them to stay on for a few more weeks. The very long awaited victories that came in those few weeks reversed morale and created a swell of new enlistments which turned the tide of the American Revolution. So, if it weren't for his character, the war would have been lost, America would have remained a British colony, Washington would have been a disgraced general rather than the first President of a new nation, and the Brits would have hung him and the other founding fathers for treason.

Washington wasn't even a very successful general by most standards. Benedict Arnold was much more sucessful in his battles and a much better strategian, but he never received the recognition of Washington because he wasn't as good in developing relationships with the Continental Congress. This jealousy and sense of resentment is what ultimately lead him to betray his country and cause which lead to his being one of the most disgraced men in history. So, yes, I'd say character matters.

[elganned]

You are the target of scorn, Cc, but not for that reason.

More on Objectivism later. Stay tuned.

[Jimaz]

Originally Posted by ccbatson
If George Washington was personally a horse's ass,...

Good Lord, did he really say that?!

[rb336]

Here is a dictionary definition:

1. the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others [[opposed to egoism ).
2. Animal Behavior. behavior by an animal that may be to its disadvantage but that benefits others of its kind, as a warning cry that reveals the location of the caller to a predator.

how nice of you to insert the phrase "animal behavior" in front of def. 2 to try to distort the meaning

behavior by an animal that may be to its disadvantage but that benefits others of its kind

since this is apparantly the part you feel is most immoral, then you clearly think every fireman, cop, soldier or others who put their lives on the line to save others are inherently immoral.

what kind of lame piece of garbage actually believes that crap?

[ccbatson]

Do the search on dictionary.com yourself...I changed nothing. How is that foot tasting now that you have wedged it into your mouth?

[rb336]

ah, to think you would use a real dictionary, like m-w.

You still distorted it, only instead of adding the phrase, you failed to italicize it :

1.the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others [[opposed to egoism ).2.Animal Behavior. behavior by an animal that may be to its disadvantage but that benefits others of its kind, as a warning cry that reveals the location of the caller to a predator


italicizing means it is a specialized rather than a general use definition.

still doesn't affect my assessment of what that actually means, and you didn't even counter that

[Stosh]

Citation from the Ayn Rand Lexicon:

Altruism

Theory

What is the moral code of altruism? The basic principle of altruism is that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue and value.

Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice—which means; self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction—which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good.

Do not hide behind such superficialities as whether you should or should not give a dime to a beggar. That is not the issue. The issue is whether you do or do not have the right to exist without giving him that dime. The issue is whether you must keep buying your life, dime by dime, from any beggar who might choose to approach you. The issue is whether the need of others is the first mortgage on your life and the moral purpose of your existence. The issue is whether man is to be regarded as a sacrificial animal. Any man of self-esteem will answer: “No.” Altruism says: “Yes.”

Did you ever wonder how idiotic this sounds? Get someone to read that aloud, and you will discover the answer. or better yet, this.

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/5649941

It's too bad that CC won't click on the link.

[elganned]

"Love is the chain by which the weak shackle the strong." ~ Neitzsche

[rb336]

I've read alot of Nietzsche, and do not recall that quote, it doesn't even sound like him, he was not such a crude wordsmith. the only thing similar i recall is "Love is a state in which a man sees things most decidedly as they are not"

[ccbatson]

Nietzche is the failed philospopher too Rand's ground breaking successes.

That quote from Rand on altruism makes perfect sense...how could it not? it is rational and objective

[ccbatson]

That link? The one that starts with a lego character calling viewers "[[[[[[[[[s"? Now why wouldn't anyone find that compelling? From this perspective you call a quote from Rand [[a highly successful author and philosopher) idiotic?

Very credible of you......ahem, sarcasm in case you missed that.

[Stosh]

That link? The one that starts with a lego character calling viewers "[[[[[[[[[s"? Now why wouldn't anyone find that compelling? From this perspective you call a quote from Rand [[a highly successful author and philosopher) idiotic?

Very credible of you......ahem, sarcasm in case you missed that.

The Lego character, as you put it [[which it is not) shows more humanity in the short time it was on the screen than Rand - dumb has ever shown in her lifetime. And yes, I do call her, and whoever chooses to follow her moronic drivel idiotic.

And thanks for the compliment. I didn't miss what you call sarcasm, I just choose to ignore it. Sic semper fatuus!

[ccbatson]

Rand-dumb...as in Random...my G-d that is both funny, clever, poignant, and substantive all at once.....[[pssst, more sarcasm, just in case you missed it again).

[Stosh]

Rand-dumb...as in Random...my G-d that is both funny, clever, poignant, and substantive all at once.....[[pssst, more sarcasm, just in case you missed it again).

Well, thanks for the compliment. Once again I am ignoring your meaningless drivel which you think passes as intelligent commentary, when nothing could, or ever will be, farther from the truth.

I'm glad that you think the Rand-umb analogy is funny. Ayn-al is a good title for her, as well as a descriptive for her followers.

[ccbatson]

How do you comment on that which you ignore? That either makes you a liar or very stupid.