A modest proposal

[PQZ]

The following are my suggestions for moving forward to accomplish more and better preservation activity in Detroit. These suggestions are based on my 10 years of professional economic development activity in the City of Detroit, my personal observations on the foibles of parties on both sides of the issue and personal friendships and long conversations with any number of preservation activists, developers, governmental employees and residents.
1.Stop screaming that DEGC and the City have no vision and have done no preservation activity. It is amazing to me that leaders of the Friends of the Book Cadillac will publicly excortiate the very people who did the actual work on the Book Cadillac. Make no mistake about it, what was accomplished at the BC is nothing short of a miracle when it comes to financing.

2.Compliment and recognize the dozens of projects that ARE preservation projects that are a direct result of the DDA / DEGC and other City efforts – such as the 50+ historic buildings that received direct cash grants for façade restoration work.
These first two are key in establishing a working relationship moving forward. If you continually berate somebody for real or perceived transgressions while refusing to acknowledge their real successes, they will eventually tune you out completely. This is what has happened to the large portion of the preservation community that is most vocal. They have done nothing but fly off the handle with very little information in hand and no effort to engage for better information.
3.Engage the DDA / DEGC constructively. Simply filing lawsuits or standing up at Council meetings / HDC meetings and attacking staff continues to marginalize preservation activitists. One particular instance that sticks in my mind is the whole Statler Hilton kerfluffle. DDA staff spent innumerable hours with developers to assess the building and to look for any potential reuse. John Ferchill declined, saying there was no viable use for the building. Pres Kabacof looked Mayor Kilpatrick in the eye and said if he was mayor, there was no way he could justify to citizens what it would take for the City to participate in the redevelopment of the building. Here are two shining lights of preservation who said directly and bluntly – its hopeless. I spent several hours in private conversations enumerating the issues and the reasons why the building was not savable to PW leadership and to membership of FOBC. That included enumerating why the plans drawn up by some of their members had fatal flaws.
There were a number of well known issues that the DDA had not fully documented yet and should have been pressed to document. It is crucial to understand that full documentation would not change the fate of the building. It would have gone a long way to help deflect accusations of cover-ups and it is something I argued strenuously for internally. I was comfortable with the decision to demolish, I was not comfortable that the decision points were formally documented. That said I spend a good deal of time explaining the reality of the situation and the need for expediency to preservation activists. It was a direct attempt at backdoor diplomacy.
I laid all the cards out on the table and clearly indicated what the reality of the situation was. It wasn’t just the opinion of me or the DDA. It was the opinion of John Ferchill. FOBC and PW, instead of taking insider information at face value and picking battles carefully elected to file a lawsuit and attempt to delay the demolition leading up to the Superbowl. Their actions caused delays that resulted in a couple hundred thousand dollars in extra expenses. Not a wise move to throw a spanner in the works when the DDA / DEGC was in desperation mode to pull off the very ambitious plan [Side note: Did PW or any other organization ever publicly support and thank the City for its overhaul of say Washington Boulevard back to its historic configuration for the Super bowl?]. The City was spending millions for new streetscapes and façade improvements and FOBC takes actions to delay the removal of a complete eyesore. Not helpful engagement people.

This begs a question, why was is that FOBC was not diplomatic to engage John Ferchill constructively? It seems the deep pocketed, successful historic property developer would be the guy you became best friends with at all costs. It also begs the question, if they had earned John’s trust, would they have listened to him when he said there was no hope for the Statler Hilton?

Now, you might say that it is the DDA or the DEGC who ought to make outreach to the preservation community and to some extent you may be right. But the cold hard reality is that in special interest / issue politics, it ALWAYS has been and ALWAYS will be the special interest that has to take the high road. It is up to the special interest groups to win people over, not browbeat them. That means working patiently and diligently on #s 1,2,and 3 above.

Has screaming worked so far? Nope. Maybe its time to try something else.

4.Smarten up about the realities of budget priorities. Recognize that there are very, very limited resources and that your priorities may not be the same as a large portion of the communities priorities. Using money to mothball a building means other programs go unfunded. It’s simple math and until the activist community takes the time to truly understand where the money goes stamping your feet will not induce people to change their budget priorities. One way to begin doing this is cordially requesting copies of DDA board books as you are free to do as citizens. Ask sensible and non-threatening questions about what you don’t understand. Presuming or behaving that the DDA / DEGC is only hiding something will only alienate staff and earn you a stonewall of minimal cooperation. When looking at the board books take the time to understand the costs and imagine yourself as a board member having to reallocate dollars away from a small business that would occupy space in a restored building [[in which the DDA already has money) to mothball a vacant building. Engage a neutral party to help you understand deals and whether they work or not. Don’t go back to the same preservation architects who have a vested interest in getting contract dollars. Try a neutral party.

5.Earn a spot at the table and show value. The Preservation Coalition with help from the Chicago office of the NTHP drafted up a plan for engagement that, when stripped to its essence, said: “We want to be able to approve any and all demolitions and preservation activity. We will add another layer of review and bureaucracy to your already extremely difficult job. We will not bring new resources to the table and we have no action plan for what we will do to help. We demand a seat at the table.� Unsurprisingly, the document was completely ignored. The drafters of the document were given any number of suggestions of value add, of what they could bring to the table and each and everyone of those suggestions was ignored and did not make it in to the document. The document was not drafted with any real solicited input from the DDA or DEGC. That is a strategic blunder of colossal proportions.

All this said, there is a litany of missteps and petty actions on the City’s side of the equation as well. They have not been diplomatic, they have been dismissive and frankly, as time goes by they get more and more bullheaded. As soon as the usual characters show up and protest an issue it is a red flag for certain elements of leadership in the City. It is unfortunate. It is unprofessional. But really, I get how they got to that point to a large extent. It is easy to paint them as bad guys but really, with the number of issues facing them, they don't have the time or inclination to hold the hands of someone upset about a particular building they have already assessed. What the DDA / DEGC is doing not cosmetic surgery in Grosse Pointe. It is triage at an army hospital. And sometimes they make mistakes and sometimes they don't fill out all the paperwork just so, but 99% of the time, they are getting it right.

The tactics of the preservation activists are not working and will not work - ever. I am giving you the explicit insider’s perspective of how to engage constructively. The balls in your court.

[gnome]

I don't see anything Swiftian in your Modest Proposal. I don't see much beside solid blocks of text filled jargon and inside baseball references to your own alleged importance. Veiled conversations between so-called - but unnamed - insiders are offered as proof to your assertions.

Before you pitch a bitch, please read:

One of the primary problems with the DEGC is it doesn't communicate effectively. It does exactly what you are doing PQZ, patting people on the head and telling them to go away. That you know best. You are the master of all things Detroit.

It is a lack of clarity. Of communication. Your imperious tone, and that of DEGC, draws contempt and anger because you treat people like swollen headed children.


Next time you make a proposal.

• Don't use a title you don't understand. Literary allusions can strengthen your argument, or they can piss off your reader if used incorrectly.
• Go to the Advanced feature. It has more features like bullets,

1. numbers
   1. indents
   2. centering
   3. Bold, colors
   4. Justify right
   5. or left

Also, don't forget you can change the size of you fonts too.

---
PQZ, I'm confident you will take these comments as my smart ass way of telling you to bugger off, but that is not the case. You have a lot, a ton, of great info but you present your ideas like you're mad at everyone, that you know best and no one matters but you and the friends in your clubhouse.

In short, your communication skills... Fix that and you'll make everyone love you.

[vetalalumni]

Is presentation everything Gnome?

[gnome]

Yes we can.

not

In this current economic environment when challenges are faced by all and experienced by some, we should band together and join hands in the spirit of our forefathers, fathers touched by the grace of heaven and inspired to greatness despite the grave times they found - our founding fathers, typified by the Minute Man, the Citizen soldier, who took up arms in the defence of Liberty, in the defence of family and in the glorious proclamation that All Men are Created Equal; now, we, their descendants have the power in our hands to join their fight, to follow their inspiration, to see that a better tomorrow is around the next bend if only we join together and say in a single voice, Follow Me, I am Somebody!

--

Proper presentation can make complex ideas understandable. PQZ has some great information, but just like George Jackson, he is not very good at presenting his ideas. I don't mean to be harsh, or needlessly critical, in fact I'd like to encourage PQZ to higher and higher levels of success, but it appears his presentation skills need some time in the shop.

Now, your experience may be different from mine, but I've found that those that can make the complex understandable are loved, while those who make the easy, complex are vilified.

I'd like to see PQZ loved.

[buildingsofdetroit]

While I disagree with PQZ on many specific issues [[i.e. Lafayette Building), I applaud him here. First, I think he was diplomatic and well-reasoned. While he didn't provide direct paths, listening to the other side is the first step in arriving at compromise. He's also correct that there has been far too much chest pounding and feet stomping and not enough action on the preservationists' side. He also acknowledges that the DEGC and the city aren't reaching out.
I've said several times that both sides need to sit down and figure out how each can help the other. For example, the city cited several times that the reason the Lafayette had to come down is because it couldn't find a developer for it. Now, how much more attractive would the Lafayette have been had it qualified for historic tax credits? Shaving 40% off the cost is HUGE money when you're talking about a $70-million project. Now, the preservationist community tried to get the building on the register, but - like the Tiger Stadium effort - was admittedly at the last minute. If the overwhelmed, overburdened, cash-strapped city and DEGC would work with the happy and willing volunteers of these preservation groups, everybody wins.

[Fnemecek]

1.Stop screaming that DEGC and the City have no vision and have done no preservation activity. It is amazing to me that leaders of the Friends of the Book Cadillac will publicly excoriate the very people who did the actual work on the Book Cadillac.

What? Do you think that because the DEGC did a great job on the Book Cadillac, they should get a pass on everything else?

When they do something good, I'll praise them. When they screw up, I'll protest. It's a fairly simple equation.

2.Compliment and recognize the dozens of projects that ARE preservation projects that are a direct result of the DDA / DEGC and other City efforts – such as the 50+ historic buildings that received direct cash grants for façade restoration work.

Done.

Done.

And done.

The FoBC issued statements to the news media shortly after the deal was announced; praising the DDA, DEGC, Mayor Kilpatrick and others for their hard work, dedication and accomplishments.

George Jackson received an award from Preservation Wayne last year for his efforts in the Book Cadillac deal. The developers received a similar praise from the National Trust for Historic Preservation.

Several other developers in Detroit have received awards and general praise from Preservation Wayne and other historic preservation groups.

3.Engage the DDA / DEGC constructively. Simply filing lawsuits or standing up at Council meetings / HDC meetings and attacking staff continues to marginalize preservation activists.

Your lack of logic amazes me. On previous threads, you criticized the preservation community for not showing up at meetings at all, but now you argue that we do show but that we "attack" the staff.

Please cite one instance in which anyone from a preservation group attacked the staff - verbally or otherwise - at a City Council or HDC meeting.

As for the law suits, you may have noticed a shortage of them in the past couple years.

Speaking of lawsuits, you seem to love bringing the Statler case up again and again. We've discussed the economics of whether or not that building could have been brought back on-line ad nausem. There's no need to rehash it for the umpteenth time.

However, as I said several times back in 2005 and every year since then, even if one accepts that the Statler Hilton did not work economically, that does not change that the City of Detroit violated the law at several points during the process. The law suit that I and others filed against in the Statler case was confined to those violations.

We live in a nation of laws. Everyone has to abide by those laws, even government agencies.

If one were to turn a blind eye to improprieties by the City then it sets a precedent, which ultimately places every other historic property in jeopardy. Are we to say that because so-and-so doesn't think a building can be saved, that 300 years of jurisprudence suddenly becomes null and void?

If a historic building cannot be saved then there is a specific process under the law for moving towards demolition. If the DEGC and others comply with the law then no one has grounds for a law suit.

We live in a nation of laws. Everyone has to abide by those laws, even government agencies.

5.Earn a spot at the table and show value.

The last time that I checked, we still live in a democracy. In a democracy, everyone automatically has a seat at the table.

If this were a deal done by a private entity with private funds then all parties involved would have a much wider degree of latitude. However, the DDA and DEGC are not private entities nor are they operating with private funds. This means that they have to learn to deal with everyone who voices an opinion - even loudmouth pains in the ass like me.

[sumas]

I am in agreement with Gnome!

[PQZ]

Gnome: My apologies that I didn't take the time to learn the specific formating functions of this board. How ever, when I cut and pasted in the text from word and previewed all the formatiing was in place. Apparently the final version did not keep that formatting.

As for tone, I have spent many a year on this forum patiently and politely explaining how the world works. I have not patted people on the head and told themn to go away. I have pointed out that there is a dead lock and the interests of the preservation community are not being heard. I have shared ways that I think would be constructive and useful ways for the preservation community to take proactive steps to break the deadlock.

The modesty in the proposal is that it does not take significant effort resource wise to implement the these steps. It does take a good amount of modesty and bravery to make honest statements and extend goodwill to other parties. Nothing was intended to be Swiftian about it.

BuildingsofDetroit:
Thank you for taking this in the spirit in which it is intended. Both sides have made huge strategic blunders. My intent here is to show the steps that would be likely to have some effect in breaking the stalemate. The steps would not be a one time event of say issueing a press release saying "We'd like to work with you." It will be a process of many months of showing good faith effort and earning trust. The DDA / DEGC side of the equation will need to do the same thing at some point, but someone has to extend the hand first and be patient if the handshake does not come immediately.

FNemecek:
Your response is about what I expected it to be. Your preferred method is to ignore a preponderance of good deeds and focus only on a the minority of mistakes and to berate for those mistakes. That is a very unproductive stance, whether its in politics, dog training, managing or inter personal relations. My suggestion is that this is the wrong approach. Take a look around at the state of affairs today and it validates my suggestion.

I am not telling folks to ignore mistakes, I am suggesting that moderating the criticism and celebrating the successes would go a long way.

A press release that is not picked up and widely circulated saying thank you while the whole City is in Superbowl mode does little to mitigate the wide spread internet posting, letters to the editor, etc saying things like: "They are all criminals", "They are idiots", "George Jackson ought to be fired" "DEGC never does anything right" "DEGC only tears down buildings".

The message needs to be consistent and organizations issuing the message need to be diplomatic.

No-one has to take my advice. But look around and ask if what is being done now is effective.

The meetings I reference were HDC and Council meetings. Meetings in which preservationists loudly interupted speakers, waving drawings saying: "No, no, no we have a viable plan." I made no mention of DDA / DEGC meetings as the preservation community has continued to ignore them.

I also would like to suggest that a sense of scale be brought to issues. The FOBC allegation on the Statler vote was that the HDC was not duly constituted and that procedures of marketing the site for a minimum of one year had not been followed. Let us be very very clear. The FOBC withdrew their suit when it became apparent that the judge was not likely to rule in their favor on these two issues. The truth of the matter is that the HDC was duly constituted and that the language around marekting was vague. The efforts of the DDA were about to be found as sufficient to constitute "marketing for a year"

While I absolutely agree that all agencies should follow all applicable rules, the truth is that in that case, the HDC and DDA were within the admittedly unclear and murky rules. It was hardly a case that would "subvert 300 years of jurisprudence". Not everything is a federal case. Noting grey areas in the charter and pushing to clarify them would have been a more prudent approach in my opinion and one that would not have cost the City and the state additional funds. Pick your battles carefully.

In a democracy, everyone has a proxy seat at the table through their vote. You are free to vote for council members, mayors and other leaders that support the policies you like.

The "seat at the table" I referenced was the proposal for the creation of a historic advisory committee that would provide input into decisions on historic buildings and hold the City at least partially accountable to the advisory committee. That is completely UNdemocratic. The suggestion was to create a non-Charter mandated committee with no direct appointment or representation from Council or the Mayor to have influence over city decisions. The purpose of this committee was largely self appointed citizens that would direct and bend public policy while not being formally appointed or elected. EEEEEK!

"Earn a seat at the table" can be taken two ways.
1.] Show just cause to the rest of the electorate / Council that such a body with specific and proscribed powers is needed and should be created and get the votes to create it.
2.] Show the policy makers that your body is responsible, contemplative and useful and that its informal input can be used to provide perspective and information that can be used by policy makers in their deliberations. The goal would be that such bodies would seek out informal and non-binding input from the organization eventually.

In this instance, my reference was to the latter meaning.

[Detroitnerd]

Quote:
3.Engage the DDA / DEGC constructively. Simply filing lawsuits or standing up at Council meetings / HDC meetings and attacking staff continues to marginalize preservation activists.

I see this as a plea from PQZ to engage the DDA/DEGC on their own terms. These groups have a track record of loathing transparency and public debate. So, what preservationists should do is reserve a table at the Rattlesnake Club, and very politely tell them what you do and don't like about the group. I'm sure it'd go over well, and they'd be very nice to you, appreciating what you've had to say.

And that's it.

They wouldn't have to act on anything, they'd convinced you that they're so nice, you've shown them how nice you are, and maybe, at some later date, they'll consider what you've had to say. Or incorporate it into their PR strategy.

But what gets the goods?

Don't leaked memos, FOIA requests, vigorous public debate and the scrutiny of media bring actual pressure to bear?

One thing I've learned from watching movements is that, while it's not bad to have somebody go and parley with the movers and shakers, it's meaningless unless there's heat on the street to back it up. So, in my estimation, going hat in hand and parleying only is a worthless strategy.

[Retroit]

A few points from an outside observer:
1. You can not expect people not to complain about their government.
2. The best way to get rid of your enemies is to make them your friends.
3. Seeing that the non-governmental preservationists are just as interested in preservation as the governmental preservationists, and seeing that just because a person is in the government does not mean they are better at making preservation decisions, the governmental preservationists should be completely open and accepting of input from the non-governmental preservationists.
4. Having a "non-Charter" Historic Advisory Committee makes complete sense, and is indeed democratic. That does not mean that elected officials would relinquish control, but rather that they are willing to use all the intellectual resources of the community when making decisions that will effect that community.
5. Don't get so encumbered in the politics that you lose sight of the real objective, which is preservation.

[d.mcc]

I was really hoping I would come in here and read something about eating the babies of the Irish poor...

[Fnemecek]

I also would like to suggest that a sense of scale be brought to issues. The FOBC allegation on the Statler vote was that the HDC was not duly constituted and that procedures of marketing the site for a minimum of one year had not been followed. Let us be very very clear. The FOBC withdrew their suit when it became apparent that the judge was not likely to rule in their favor on these two issues. The truth of the matter is that the HDC was duly constituted and that the language around marketing was vague. The efforts of the DDA were about to be found as sufficient to constitute "marketing for a year".

I love your uncanny ability of explaining to me what my motives were.

The FOBC withdrew its suit as part of a larger deal. We had a developer who was interested and qualified to redevelop the site. We agreed to withdraw in return for the DEGC agreed to meet with them and negotiate a deal. We agreed to that, not out of fear that the judge would not side with us, but because our only intention was to see a historic building brought back on-line.

Unfortunately, after the deal was signed but before the scheduled meeting took place, George Jackson was already telling reporters that he intended to proceed with demolition no matter what. Things like that don't exactly encourage anyone to trust the DEGC; neither does things like falsifying inspection reports for the Madison-Lenox or the way that the Tiger Stadium was treated.

[PQZ]

Quote:
3.Engage the DDA / DEGC constructively. Simply filing lawsuits or standing up at Council meetings / HDC meetings and attacking staff continues to marginalize preservation activists.

I see this as a plea from PQZ to engage the DDA/DEGC on their own terms. These groups have a track record of loathing transparency and public debate. So, what preservationists should do is reserve a table at the Rattlesnake Club, and very politely tell them what you do and don't like about the group. I'm sure it'd go over well, and they'd be very nice to you, appreciating what you've had to say.

And that's it.

They wouldn't have to act on anything, they'd convinced you that they're so nice, you've shown them how nice you are, and maybe, at some later date, they'll consider what you've had to say. Or incorporate it into their PR strategy.

But what gets the goods?

Don't leaked memos, FOIA requests, vigorous public debate and the scrutiny of media bring actual pressure to bear?

One thing I've learned from watching movements is that, while it's not bad to have somebody go and parley with the movers and shakers, it's meaningless unless there's heat on the street to back it up. So, in my estimation, going hat in hand and parleying only is a worthless strategy.

Carrots and sticks are good. So far the preservation community has only been able to cobble together are sticks and the occassional stone.

And I would argure that having someone go "parlay" is beyond "not a bad idea". I would argue that it is absolutely critical.

From the first meetings of FOBC over at St. Andrews Hall, it established itself as an oppositional force that would fight the DDA on the presumed outcome of demolition. The voices that said "Maybe we should go talk to them and be partners first" were drowned out by those who whispered darkly about secret meetings etc.

I compare that with the Carolina Theatre Preservation Society which has a completely different approach. When the City took control of the last remaining vintage theater in downtown Charlotte, it immediately contacted the City and offered it's unconditional help. It has mobilized hundredsof volunteers, has raised tens of thousands of dollars and it an active partner. EVERY meeting that even discusses the Theatre, they show up as a resource. Many times they don't need to say anything, but they are clearly seen and recognized. They call the project manager every 30 - 60 days and ask if there is anything on the horizon they should be aware of and how they can help.

They write proactive op-eds and letters, being very careful to point out the Council members that do oppose City dollars in the project are being responsible stewards of publci dollars and they respoect their opinion. They then try to enumerate the reasons why they feel the dollars should be spent. They are partners, they are not attack dogs.

The Preservation Society also worked to secure an operator and licensing agreement for the theater to ensure it was used in the eventual renoation of the building. They are doing this in conjunction with the City, County, a private developer, a non-profit operator and a for profit operator.

The upshot is that a city that was TRULY demolition happy has gradually swung to the other side and has seen the light. Council and other leaders have seen the light because the preservationists here have done two things.

1. Remained positive and showed what good can come.
2. Provided value by raising funds and doing heavy lifting.

That is a very different approach than a group deciding on a t-shirt sale to prepare for the presumed lawsuit they would file and deciding to try to raise funds by charging the DDA for use of its historic materials.

So....now what?

Continue yelling and making preposterous claims about non-existance skullduggery or try a new approach?

[Detroitnerd]

If there's heat on the street, yes, then you can try to make deals.

But history shows time and again, without a mobilized group that's passionate about an outcome, you'll be patronized by the movers and shakers and sent packing.

Whoever ever won an argument with the elite on the elite's own terms?

So, yeah, I'm going to have to say that the two strategies -- which you decry as "attacking" and what you praise as "working together" -- are vital prongs that assist each other in getting the goods.

[kraig]

The posts to this thread speaks volumes. There is a reason why there are a lot of passionate, well intentioned people that always appear to be on the outside looking in. And one of those reasons is very evident in the responses to the original post. Bitterness is sometimes just an angry form of regret.

[detourdetroit]

PQZ --

your suggestions, insights and experience have always been appreciated [[the vinegar not so much), but are you really saying eyes wide open that there has never been skullduggery perpetrated against detroit's architectural heritage? i find that very difficult to swallow.

[Fnemecek]

Carrots and sticks are good. So far the preservation community has only been able to cobble together are sticks and the occasional stone.

And I would argue that having someone go "parlay" is beyond "not a bad idea". I would argue that it is absolutely critical.

We already have several preservation groups that will make nice with the DEGC.

• Karen Nager, executive director of Preservation Wayne, will say at least some nice things about the DDA/DEGC even after George Jackson calls her at home at 3 a.m. to scream obscene threats at her.
• Everyone at the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy bent over backwards to be as accommodating and diplomatic towards them as any human being possibly could.be.

Astute readers of this forum may have even noticed a period of almost a year prior to the Tiger Stadium demolition where the more hard headed members of the preservation community were conspicuously silent in their criticism of the DEGC; all while George Jackson and others were receiving one accolade after another from a series of preservation groups.

And what was the result of this?

1. Tiger Stadium gets demolished.
2. The federal government gets blamed by the DEGC for not being fast enough, which I might add pissed off more than a few people in Washington, DC.
3. As an encore, the Lafayette Building is also demolished.

There may well be a few areas where the preservation community could improve. However, all would be remiss if we did not add one very important lesson for the DEGC to learn as well: when you stab the nice, diplomatic preservation people in the back it makes it much harder for them to continue being nice and diplomatic.

More importantly, it pretty much guarantees that the hard headed activists will take their muzzles off and start trashing their reputation at every opportunity.

[PQZ]

We already have several preservation groups that will make nice with the DEGC.

• Karen Nager, executive director of Preservation Wayne, will say at least some nice things about the DDA/DEGC even after George Jackson calls her at home at 3 a.m. to scream obscene threats at her.
• Everyone at the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy bent over backwards to be as accommodating and diplomatic towards them as any human being possibly could.be.

Astute readers of this forum may have even noticed a period of almost a year prior to the Tiger Stadium demolition where the more hard headed members of the preservation community were conspicuously silent in their criticism of the DEGC; all while George Jackson and others were receiving one accolade after another from a series of preservation groups.

And what was the result of this?

1. Tiger Stadium gets demolished.
2. The federal government gets blamed by the DEGC for not being fast enough, which I might add pissed off more than a few people in Washington, DC.
3. As an encore, the Lafayette Building is also demolished.

There may well be a few areas where the preservation community could improve. However, all would be remiss if we did not add one very important lesson for the DEGC to learn as well: when you stab the nice, diplomatic preservation people in the back it makes it much harder for them to continue being nice and diplomatic.

More importantly, it pretty much guarantees that the hard headed activists will take their muzzles off and start trashing their reputation at every opportunity.

How gracious and progressive of you to note that ther could be an area for improvement or two. Perhaps Mr. Jackson's anger stems from the "hard headed activists" and their previous actions such as blatant lies about demo lists, inaction on helping out with the Book Cadillac, lodging frivolous lawsuits, alleging corruption with no proof etc.

No matter. If you continue to play the blame game nothing moves forward. I have long thought that much like certain Council members, certain portions of the preservation community don't want to actually move the City forward as then they might not have their little slice of fame / influence.

Enjoy your time on the island, Jack Merridew.

[DetroitPlanner]

Not surprisingly, I do agree with a lot of what PQZ said.

The best ways to get politicans to listen to you is to give them a public reward. They are creatures of the press and live for good press. Want more buildings saved, more landscaping like Washinton Blvd? Publicly thank them. These folks can be your best ally because they are focused on deliverables that will keep them getting re-elected and will hide from bad press.

Note that I have not said anything that is particularly supportive of what has been [[or not) done. This is how the game is played folks. You further your goal more from being nice than being crabby.

Complaining here does nothing to help your cause. Lets face it, most of you do not vote for City politicians because either you live in the suburbs or keep your official address out there to avoid paying income taxes or lower your insurance. I'd be willing to bet that not even 3 percent of Detroit's electorate has even stumbled upon this page.

[Fnemecek]

PQZ:

Yes, yes. The FOBC is 100% at fault. Everything the DEGC does is perfect. We exist only to serve them.

[Johnlodge]

PQZ:

Yes, yes. The FOBC is 100% at fault. Everything the DEGC does is perfect. We exist only to serve them.

That's not at all what he said, and sounds an awful lot like a "hissy fit".

[Detroitnerd]

Want more buildings saved, more landscaping like Washinton Blvd? Publicly thank them. These folks can be your best ally because they are focused on deliverables that will keep them getting re-elected and will hide from bad press.

But what about the movers and shakers at the authorities? When are G.J. et al. up for re-election? That's why I say being nice -- and nice only -- seems naive to me. If I were in power and didn't want to be second-guessed at all, I'd give people that sort of ineffective advice.

At some point, we have to acknowledge that the debate is on an unequal footing.

[PQZ]

But what about the movers and shakers at the authorities? When are G.J. et al. up for re-election? That's why I say being nice -- and nice only -- seems naive to me. If I were in power and didn't want to be second-guessed at all, I'd give people that sort of ineffective advice.

At some point, we have to acknowledge that the debate is on an unequal footing.

I didn't say "Just be nice."

I am suggesting that the praise is faint at best for the good things that get accomplished and the outrage over the far fewer mistakes is over blown. I am suggesting strongly that there is a lack of perspective and sense of scale.

Also, I am not "in power". I do not work for DDA / DEGC and do not live in Michigan. I did once upon a time, but now I don't have to pull punches about either side and I can put differing perspectives out there aside from the same closed feedback loop that seems to be going on here.

Its too bad that when approached with genuine honesty and insight as to what would go a long way to bridge the gap, folks here react with outrage and dig further into the same old trenches.

[DetroitPlanner]

But what about the movers and shakers at the authorities? When are G.J. et al. up for re-election? That's why I say being nice -- and nice only -- seems naive to me. If I were in power and didn't want to be second-guessed at all, I'd give people that sort of ineffective advice.

At some point, we have to acknowledge that the debate is on an unequal footing.

George Jackson is appointed by the Mayor. Any complaints that you have should be directed to the person who is in charge.

That being said, all I am trying to convey is PQZ is the messenger. Shooting him down solves nothing. In fact PQZ could be George Jackson for all I know. This is a public forum. Now then if someone wanted to test PQZ's hypothesis I'd be all for it, in fact, put together a award committee and I might even join it. Such a committee could do no harm and would be a constructive way to adressing the problem he points out.

[Fnemecek]

With PQZ's comments about the FoBC, one fundamental detail should be pointed out and that's that the FoBC hasn't existed as an organization for more than a year now. Today, it's only a dormant listserv.

The historic preservation groups that do still exist have repeatedly praised the DDA/ DEGC and have presented George Jackson with at least one award that I know about it in the past 12 months. They have also publicly honored the development team behind the Book Cadillac and several others, with said accolades garnering attention from the news media.

In addition, the historic preservation groups that do still exist have not filed lawsuits against the City - with the exception of the OTSC suit that was launched after the DEGC moved to demolish Tiger Stadium.

The historic preservation groups that do still exist have also worked to attract developers and investors to historic preservation projects.