Gardenview Estates progress

[Hermod]

really.... could you imagine actually having the poorest of the poor be asked to live in rehabbed 1930's housing??? for the love of god, we are talking human beings here... most people wouldn't subject their pets to living in rehabbed 1930's housing stock....

When I was in college, the dorm was over a hundred years old.

Why are all of the people wanting to restore Brush Park if they wouldn't let their pets live there?

[BVos]

As someone who works developing affordable housing and knows far more about Gardenview than anyone on this board, I'll say this: Long Lake, you don't know what you're talking about. Stop talking out your ass. RSA knows what he's talking about.

Like RSA I don't think everything you've said is worth responding to, but I will say a few things. Does anyone think that maybe the development team for this project has done numerous market studies to support not just the development in general, but also the specific mix of housing sizes, supportive housing, commercial, etc.? And the private investors who are putting up tens of millions of dollars into these projects [[in addition to the public money) don't know what they're doing and are throwing their money away?

If you think that QUALITY, affordable housing is plentiful in Detroit, you're not aware of reality. There's lots of affordable stuff out there, but very little is quality. This development is part of a wider plan for the neighborhood that includes upgrading privately owned single family homes in the area, land banking, etc.

The people up here amaze some days with their ignorance...

[GottaLoveDetroit]

I believe that Gardenview Estates is positive for the city. Just found a web site for Gardenview Estates and it is loaded with positive Detroit information -- about the city and the site. This is just what Detroit needs to burnish the image. Family housing presented in a positive manner. Check it out:

www.GardenviewDetroit.com

I really liked it -- let me know what you think.

[GottaLoveDetroit]

A key to the revitalization of Detroit is to create some vibrant new construction neighborhoods -- with families, schools and recreation. This is exactly what the folks at Gardenview Estates, Joy and Southfield are doing.

Did you know that Gardenview Estates is the largest new neighborhood under construction in Michigan right now?

[Bearinabox]

A key to the revitalization of Detroit is to create some vibrant new construction neighborhoods

I don't see why. Everything doesn't always have to be new. I'd rather see us revitalize the neighborhoods we already have.

[GottaLoveDetroit]

The problem with taking one home in a neighborhood and rebuilding that home is that there is no real synergy developed. By taking Gardenview Estates and putting in 231 new homes with quality materials, add in an early learning center, put into place some senior housing, with 3 schools within a block and a recreation center on site you have built a new community with its own identity that is a part of creating a vibrancy for all of the city. The surrounding neighborhoods -- and the homes to the south of Gardnview Estates only has 2 or 3 vacant homes -- all stand to benefit from familie moving in -- and retail wll surely follow --afterall there will be 231 new families, plus 100 + seniors in co-op housing on site. Gardenview Estates may be the model for other neighborhoods in the city.

[GottaLoveDetroit]

I watched the Detroit Planning Commission last night for the public hearing on 231 new homes at Gardenview Estates. One man spoke in favor and was pleased that these homes will start going on the tax rolls once they are are built -- some tax credits for reduction but the bottom line is that property that brings in no taxes now will be added to the rolls and will begin bringing in taxes.

231 new homes in Detroit. On the tax rolls. Outstanding.

[GottaLoveDetroit]

I also had lunch yesterday with a suburban housing official who was a graduate of Cooley. He is really excited that this property is being developed. There are a lot of people watching the progress here and hope that it could be the start of something good -- and something big.

[Rocko]

Overall I think this will be good for the city. Some infill housing was built along Tireman east of Gardenview a couple years ago, and though there are now some additional abandoned houses in the blocks to the east and south of Gardenview, if the city were smart, they would put a priority on rehabbing them or demolishing and rebuilding dwellings on those sites.....hopefully using Gardenview as an impetus to begin stabilizing the entire neighborhood. Those schools in that district are real anchors for the community, as is the new NFL center.

I know the city approved the demolition of several derelict commercial buildings along the north side of Joy in the last quarter of 2009.....not sure if they've come down yet, but as the residents move into Gardenview and some commercial starts taking off along Joy, maybe developers will become interested in the commercial properties on the north side of Joy, too.

I, for one, am excited that they put down a rather grid like street pattern. In my opinion, having a street pattern that accurately ties into the surrounding streets is one of the best ways to link this neighborhood with the surrounding one. Rather than have one or two entry points and winding suburban like streets, the grid allows multiple points of entry from neighborhoods on at least two sides, and helps to maintain some of the city neighborhood feeling. Hopefully, the good things happening here will spread into the surrounding areas. This could be a good opportunity.

[Rocko]

From today's Detroit Free Press:

Posted: March 7, 2010

Detroit mixed-use development includes incentives to buy

BY GRETA GUEST
FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER


By summer, the first single-family homes will start going in at the former site of Detroit's Herman Gardens public housing project, the result of more than a decade of planning. And the green homes starting at $140,000 are expected to bring new life to an area rich in history, and more recently, heavy foreclosures.


Gardenview Estates is the 139-acre, mixed-use and mixed-income development at the southeast corner of Joy Road and the Southfield Freeway. It features rental units, senior citizen co-ops and single-family homes. Seven acres have been set aside for stores.

Three developers who have worked together on various urban projects for the past 10 years -- William Phillips, Dwight Belyue and William Richardson -- plan to build 231 green homes on the site.

The development was honored last month as the Building Industry Association of Southeastern Michigan's development of the year.

"What we are trying to do is attract people from outside the city," said Phillips, vice president of Windham Development. "There is just a strong likelihood this will sell out quickly. I don't know how deep the market is; I just know there is a market."
Belyue is president of Belmar Development Group and Richardson owns Harvard Development.

The project carries a number of buying incentives, including a home buyer down-payment assistance program that offers up to $60,000 through City of Detroit Home Funds and a 12-year tax abatement through the Neighborhood Enterprise Zone designation.

Phillips noted that Victoria Park, Jefferson Village and Clairpointe -- all developments in Detroit -- sold successfully.

"The goal here is for this to become a benchmark for other projects," Phillips said.
The Detroit Housing Commission, the City of Detroit and the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development teamed up to develop the site. It replaces the former Herman Gardens public housing development, a complex that opened during World War II with 2,100 apartments.

In its place would be a mix of 833 apartments, houses and senior co-ops. The first phase, which opened last fall, includes 96 affordable rental units. The single-family homes will be built in three phases with the first group of 66 homes completed by spring of 2011, Phillips said.

The houses are all three-bedroom, 1 1/2 -bath homes with brick and vinyl exteriors. There are two price points, depending on the lot size. The 45-foot-wide lot starts at $140,000 and has a one-car garage. The 60-foot-wide lot starts at $180,000 and has a two-car garage. No homes have been presold.

Green-building standards will be used throughout, including insulation, furnaces and roofing materials, Phillips said."I'm expecting this to be a family neighborhood and that's how we are marketing it," he said. "The real strength of this to me is a sustainable neighborhood that meets the needs of families with affordable housing."

The residential portion joins the NFL/Youth Education Town -- Boys and Girls Club on the Dick and Sandy Dauch Campus at the site. The $6-million center opened in 2007. It was a gift from the NFL and others related to Super Bowl XL, which was played in Detroit in 2006.

A charter school, a Catholic school and a public school are all nearby. The development also features two parks.

Contact GRETA GUEST: 313-223-4192 or gguest@freepress.com.

[neighbor]

The houses are all three-bedroom, 1 1/2 -bath homes with brick and vinyl exteriors. There are two price points, depending on the lot size. The 45-foot-wide lot starts at $140,000 and has a one-car garage. The 60-foot-wide lot starts at $180,000 and has a two-car garage. No homes have been presold.

Seriously? Who is going to put that kind of money down in today's market and who is going to lend it to them if they want to?

There is no way more than 10 of these are going to be purchased in the next 2 years if any.

I just don't get it.

[Fnemecek]

Seriously? Who is going to put that kind of money down in today's market and who is going to lend it to them if they want to?

It does kind of boggle ones mind. I drifted away from this thread for awhile. I have to admit, though, that I'm miffed at the idiots who say that one can't find quality, affordable housing in Detroit.

Less than a mile south of Gardenview is a multitude of available houses - some in great condition, some in need of rehab - that are available for a lot less than the asking price for any of these homes.

http://warrendale.blogspot.com/2010/...mansfield.html

http://warrendale.blogspot.com/2009/...randville.html

[mwilbert]

It is not sensible to spend money building more single-family housing in Detroit; there is a glut of housing in the metro area and will be for a while. The median, non-foreclosure house sale price in Oakland County in January was only $139,000, so the point of building "affordable" $140 and $180K houses escapes me. Families with children with other options do not want to use the Detroit schools, so who the target demographic for these houses is escapes me.

There is a reason why most of the development that has occurred in Detroit in the recent past has been housing for childless people in the Woodward corridor--because there are actually people for whom such housing makes sense as an option. Condos in semi-walkable areas are at least something that doesn't exist everywhere in Metro Detroit, unlike 3 bedroom homes.

If, contrary to my expectations, these houses are able to be sold at anything close to the prices described, they will be pulling buyers out of other housing that needs people to live in it. If those people come from outside Detroit [[not very likely) then there might be a net benefit to the city itself, but at a cost to wherever they left. More likely, they would contribute to blighting some other area--people who can afford these places don't live in the blighted parts of the city now.

[Mikeg]

pulling buyers out of other housing that needs people to live in it.

Does other housing need people or do people need other housing?
Do we have a "command and control" housing market or do we still have some semblance of a consumer-driven housing market, albeit one with government subsidies to developers, plus government incentives in the form of new home buyer credits, down payment assistance and 12-year tax abatements?
What's next - requiring approval from the local government in order to move from one residence to another, assuming that one could ever get a favorable cost/benefit analysis out of the local government bureaucracy to support that approval?

[mwilbert]

Does other housing need people or do people need other housing?

This was a metaphor. Sorry about that. Perhaps I should have said "neighborhoods" that need people? But that is also shorthand; it is the people in the neighborhoods who prefer not to have lots of empty buildings around and who will be disadvantaged if their neighbors move away. I didn't suggest people shouldn't be able to move where they want; the question is whether we should encourage it through ill-conceived subsidies.

And as you mention, this development has nothing to do with market forces in the first place--it is urban planning in as obtrusive a form as is likely to occur--first they tore down everything that was there, and then they created a planned community full of subsidized units with affordability restrictions, that nonetheless are not more affordable than what is already available. I have nothing against planning, just against stupid planning.

[GMan]

Drove by area a couple of weeks ago. This must be a heavily subsidized project. As others have asked; Do we need this type of development when existing neighborhoods are neglected? How will this revitalize existing neighborhoods when it seems designed to attract those residents into the new housing available in the project. Who will move into this type of housing at the asking price unless it is subsidized and the true cost is transparent to the end inhabitant.
The condition of the commercial strip across from the project is a real detriment to attracting any residents from outside the existing area. Mabey thats why there is a huge landscaped mound of dirt in the corner to block out the view. That strip used to have a vareity of stores and services located there all the way up untill the mid 80's. The crime drove them out and time and vandals have taken their toll.
Mabey the goal is to have mini neighborhoods like Gardenview and tear down the remaining homes around these enclaves. Sounds like a suburban subdivision to me.

[Hamtragedy]

"NO HOMES HAVE BEEN PRE-SOLD"

Drive down Ferris in Highland Park and see how that turned out.

[Goose]

"NO HOMES HAVE BEEN PRE-SOLD"

Drive down Ferris in Highland Park and see how that turned out.

+1, this is what i envision gardenview estates to look like in 5-7 years, if it EVER really gets built...

someone is lining their pockets with government money trying to get this project started....

[kathy2trips]

I would buy and move, if necessary, an older home before I'd buy new construction. A Sears Kit house is 10x better than the poor quality that is around today. Most older homes were built by the original homeowners themselves, essentially, custom built homes. Sure there's old crap out there, but even the mediocre houses have hard wood floors.

[Fnemecek]

I would buy and move, if necessary, an older home before I'd buy new construction.

But, Kathy, don't you know that there aren't any quality, affordable houses in Detroit?

Bvos did all kinds of research and stuff.

[Rocko]

Improving the surrounding/adjacent neighborhood and making the new development a success, the anchor schools in and near that development should be improved and made some of the best in the district/city. This would boost the entire neighborhood, help encourage infill construction, and promote the new development....whether it should be built or not.

[BVos]

Fnemecek, I've never come out and criticized your artistic or research skills for your films. I've enjoyed several of them and learned a lot from them. I'd expect the same professional courtesy as someone who cares about Detroit as much as you do.

I'm not going to get into the details of who I work for or my professional background, but those that know me on this board know that when I spoke above about a lot of research, planning and study having gone into this, I'm speaking from direct professional knowledge of this specific development. Years and years of study from top notch firms, reevaluating the numbers over and over again, etc. This project is relatively easy to find investors for who will buy the tax credits, give construction loans, etc. There's stuff along the Woodward Corridor that you'd probably find far sexier that can't get funded. That says a whole lot about the project, especially in these times.

I'm somewhat skeptical about the for sale housing working, not because it's bad for the neighborhood [[which it isn't) but because I don't see how the banks will give loans for that price and how appraisers will be able to get the proper valuation. But the development team is very, very experienced with all types of development, especially in Detroit. If they say it can happen, I'm willing to give deference to their professional knowledge which is more considerable than mine.

As for the rental portion, that's a solid project and then some. Ask anyone who works in affordable housing in Detroit and they will tell you that QUALITY, affordable rental housing is very hard to come by. Developments that guarantee they will be affordable for a long term [[15+ years) have waiting lists of over a year, some places with waiting lists 7+ years long. There might be a whole lot of rentals out there, but the ones that people needing affordable housing actually want to live in have demand that far exceeds the supply.

[GMan]

I guess that's my gripe. The pricing target is based on what the gov will pay for subsidized housing not what the market will bear. In an attempt to achieve mixed development, the lower end of the housing development has been artifically inflated to appear desirable to the residents with the public picking up the tab. Price alone dosen't define quality or desirability.
The rental housing is guaranteed for as long as the gov will keep pouring money into the project. Hmmn... Herman Gardens started out this way. A defined need for affordable housing, price controls, assisted payment plans. Federal funds fixed it up in the late 70's I believe, [[ It was only 30 some yrs old at the time but considered undesirable, ) and with 10 more years it was considered undesirable, unaffordable to maintain and unihabitable due to crime and neglect. This had less to do with the structures themselves but instead with the perception of what constitutes affordable quality housing and that poverty was being condensed into crime ridden neglected areas by the government.

I'm somewhat skeptical about the for sale housing working, not because it's bad for the neighborhood [[which it isn't) but because I don't see how the banks will give loans for that price and how appraisers will be able to get the proper valuation.

As for the rental portion, that's a solid project and then some. Ask anyone who works in affordable housing in Detroit and they will tell you that QUALITY, affordable rental housing is very hard to come by. Developments that guarantee they will be affordable for a long term [[15+ years) have waiting lists of over a year, some places with waiting lists 7+ years long. There might be a whole lot of rentals out there, but the ones that people needing affordable housing actually want to live in have demand that far exceeds the supply.

[BVos]

GMan,

The urban planning and development world has learned a lot from the failures of Herman Gardens, Jeffries, etc. The goal here is to have a mix of incomes and that is being accomplished.

Rents are based on market rents and the subsidies used to plug the gap that exists between the ability to properly maintain and manage to a high standard and the rents residents can afford to pay. All apartments are built to the same standards, regardless of the level of subsidy. This way the amount of money someone is paying in rent is indistinguishable from others, and as families incomes rise [[or fall) there's no need to move. If you know of a way to create high quality, sustainable, well managed affordable housing without government subsidies or tax credits, please tell me how that can be done. And conversely, if you're against government subsidies, please tell me how you plan to ensure that folks who can't afford market rents can find quality, affordable housing.

[GMan]

BVos,

I don't thing the planners have learned a lot from H.G. or others projects. The H.G. was a jewel at one time. State of the art. Look what happened to it.
The hope of mixed income levels with some paying full market value while others are subsidized simply won't happen. The planners simply haven't been able to create what makes a neighborhood. The residents that make up a neighborhood have to have a common thread. The residents have to have a stake in the area. Simply building housing and subsidizing residency dosen't create that dependency. In fact it seems to eliminate it. If the cost of something is transparent to the individual then the value of it is worthless. It is simply a commodity to use up. A dependency of another to maintain what is not mine in the first place leads to an apathy of its condition.


I wish I had an acceptable answer to what ails Detroit's housing needs. I just feel a here we go again feeling as I see tax dollars going into high profile project but one flawed with a questionable premise.