"The White City" - implications for Detroit

[English]

I just read a great article on an urban studies blog. I shared it on Facebook, and was hoping to get some good discussion going here:

The White City
http://www.newgeography.com/content/...the-white-city

"Among the media, academia and within planning circles, there’s a generally standing answer to the question of what cities are the best, the most progressive and best role models for small and mid-sized cities. The standard list includes Portland, Seattle, Austin, Minneapolis, and Denver. In particular, Portland is held up as a paradigm, with its urban growth boundary, extensive transit system, excellent cycling culture, and a pro-density policy. These cities are frequently contrasted with those of the Rust Belt and South, which are found wanting, often even by locals, as “cool” urban places.

"But look closely at these exemplars and a curious fact emerges. If you take away the dominant Tier One cities like New York, Chicago and Los Angeles you will find that the “progressive” cities aren’t red or blue, but another color entirely: white.

"In fact, not one of these “progressive” cities even reaches the national average for African American percentage population in its core county. Perhaps not progressiveness but whiteness is the defining characteristic of the group..."

As we think about the challenges Detroit faces, this is definitely food for thought. The entire article is worth reading. I particularly liked the points made about Atlanta and Houston, cities that a lot of educated African Americans from Detroit flock to in droves. Unless those of us who are people of color in SE Michigan disappear, we will never be a Seattle, Portland or Denver.

Like I've shared in my other thread, I am applying to jobs here in the Detroit area, but because nothing's guaranteed, I'm also applying for work in these hipster "new urban" places too [[where most of the jobs this year seem to be located in my field). Those cities might be nice, but I've heard that POC feel pretty isolated there. But I have to admit... if I weren't African American, but White with the same level of education and skill set, I wouldn't have ambivalence about moving to the Pacific NW. I'd likely jump at the chance. And that thoughts makes me feel weird.

Thoughts?

[Danny]

Detroit used to be a 'White city' 35 years ago now a its 'Black city' with little or no chance of revitilization.

[English]

LOL, Danny... yep, we were the hipster town of the mid-20th century!

Oh, well, it was fun while it lasted!

I'm now reading the comments. They're almost as interesting as the article. Definitely a blog to bookmark.

[mwilbert]

Austin has a large Hispanic population. Add in blacks and I believe it is almost 40% minority.

However, the fact is that the reasons why these "white hipster" cities are as they are seem fairly clear to me.

1) Support for the so-called "good government" approach to local affairs in the US is predominantly in the North Central/North West areas of the US where there were a lot of Scandinavian immigrants.
I don't know why but the Scandinavian countries have among the least-corrupt governments in the world, and they seem to retain that quality in the US.

This is relevant because you need an effective government to do effective urban planning. It doesn't have to be honest [[look at Providence, RI) but it does have to be competent. However, corrupt government probably won't produce what the white hipsters want--usually it produces what developers want.

2) There aren't so many blacks in those areas. They mostly industrialized after the Great Migration. They are also far from the South.

So I guess the question is: is the lack of blacks around why people think those places are nice? Maybe so, I'm not sure how to test that.

Also I read the blog piece you referenced. I don't really think that the author is looking at this fairly. For instance, he seems to be saying that the Portland growth boundary keeps out minorities by raising property prices within the growth boundary much like restrictive zoning keeps minorities out of expensive suburbs by keeping prices high.

This would be a lot more persuasive if housing prices and rents in Portland were particularly high, but they don't seem to be. And it ignores the fact that things like walkability and excellent public transportation are very useful for people with lower incomes and do not exist in large-lot zoned suburbs

[ordinary]

I just returned from visiting my brother in Portland. It is definitely the vanilla village.

[ordinary]

"This would be a lot more persuasive if housing prices and rents in Portland were particularly high, but they don't seem to be. And it ignores the fact that things like walkability and excellent public transportation are very useful for people with lower incomes and do not exist in large-lot zoned suburbs"

It is becoming quite expensive in Portland. A lot of people are migrating there from California and the prices are being driven up.

[English]

I agree, Mwilbert... and it's not as if White folks in Portland or Seattle don't want Black people living there. Rather, most Black people don't want to live there. I think it's the same for those who want a walkable, sustainable hipster lifestyle. They move to Seattle or Portland.

A local microexample is where I live now, Ann Arbor. I could go into detail about what it's like living in a SWPL place. If I were white, this place would be paradise. Since I'm not, it's a nice enough spot and I've done well here, but I have run into a tiny bit of social isolation [[as in, I've only been asked out a couple times in five years -- Detroit and Southfield were FAR better for that) and culture shock. I think it's the same for white Northerners who move to certain places in the South. It's not as if anyone's being mean to you. Often they can be perfectly nice. It's just that you feel weird and out of place, because the way that you tend to socialize, date, and even dine is... just different.

[EastsideAl]

None of the cities named in that story were ever industrial enough to draw large numbers of mostly unskilled workers, including many blacks, from the south. In that sense, the "blackness" of less successful cities is really a stand-in variable for the degree of historic economic dependence on heavy industry.

[LouHat]

In that sense, the "blackness" of less successful cities is really a stand-in variable for the degree of historic economic dependence on heavy industry.

Yet, heavy industry brought us the Polish, the Italians, the Irish, the Germans, the Hillbillies, etc., etc, etc.. Is there something about the "blackness" that I'm missing?

[kathy2trips]

So, whenever "minorities" are mentioned regarding Detroit, they mean non-Blacks, correct? So shouldn't they get all the government perks that go along with being a minority?

[English]

Yet, heavy industry brought us the Polish, the Italians, the Irish, the Germans, the Hillbillies, etc., etc, etc.. Is there something about the "blackness" that I'm missing?

The kids of the Polish, Italians, etc. either got college educated or went into the skilled trades. I guess that most of us were either unwilling or unable to do the same... depending upon which side of the sociopolitical divide one falls.

My grandparents always said that Black folks ended up going up North "wherever the train line was". So most black Chicagoans have Mississippi roots, most black Detroiters are from Alabama and Georgia, etc. Grandma was from Florida; most of her relatives ended up and down the Eastern seaboard in Boston, New York, and DC. My Detroit maternal family branch originally lived in Boston; but [[if I recall correctly) my great-aunt's employer moved to Detroit, she followed, and sent for her younger sisters, including my grandmother.

Judging from that, it makes sense that the West isn't very black. Folks from Louisiana and Texas often went West to California, since that's the direction *their* trains ran... but in the Jim Crow era United States, you just weren't going to have adventurous parties of wandering Black folks roaming the Western frontier. And in the 40-50 years since, we've stuck to the places we've been in for generations... collective memories are strong.

There's still a deep-seated perception among many that all-White places are dangerous or even life threatening. It's why [[irrationally) a lot of us don't like going up North here in Michigan, or to school in places like, say, Montana or Idaho. Call it what you will, but it's there.

[English]

So, whenever "minorities" are mentioned regarding Detroit, they mean non-Blacks, correct? So shouldn't they get all the government perks that go along with being a minority?

Did you even read the article?

[Novine]

That article is by Aaron Renn AKA the Urbanophile. He blogs on his own site and has turned up here from time to time to post.

http://theurbanophile.blogspot.com/

[English]

Thanks, Novine. The main point of the article that I found interesting was about transit. I'm glad to see that those of us who think that the opposition to mass transit is mainly due to our region's demographics aren't dreaming. I also thought the comments Renn makes about preservation vs. jobs in places with high numbers of Blacks and Latinos were very good. The preservationists aren't just dreamers, and those who are more interested in jobs for their constituents aren't just those who don't care about their surroundings. They just come from different groups with different priorities.

Definitely a blog to bookmark... thanks again.

[markseth]

I have been fascinated with Detroit for years now. I love Detroityes.com This is my first post, so please be patient. I was born in Defiance, Ohio and remember well the Detroit riots of '67 [[was in boys summer camp in Michigan that summer) I have lived in the South [[Virginia and Kentucky) , Phoenix, Washington, D.C. and for the past 20 years Seattle. I can tell you one of the best aspects of living in the Pacific Northwest is that this is as colorblind area of the country as you will find. Yes, we have a relatively small percentage [[15% or so) of African Americans living in Seattle. BUT, we elected a black mayor for 8 years [[Norm Rice), and have for years had a black member of the city council [[city wide, not district elections). Ron Sims, an African American, was elected King County Executive for 2 four year terms, and King County is even "whiter" than Seattle.
So English, please do not let the racial composition of the Northwest deter you from moving here. I can honestly say most people here pride themselves on judging the person, not the color.
And I'll give you a tour of Seattle when you come if you'll give me a tour of Detroit when I come visit! [[I think Detroit is the most fascinating city in America right now, bar none.)

[urbanophile]

Thank you for posting the link. I appreciate it.

I try to read this site regularly, but am generally a lurker.

[Onthe405]

None of the cities named in that story were ever industrial enough to draw large numbers of mostly unskilled workers, including many blacks, from the south. In that sense, the "blackness" of less successful cities is really a stand-in variable for the degree of historic economic dependence on heavy industry.

Up until the era of the computer [[beginning around the 1980s), both Seattle & Portland were primarily heavy industrial economies---led by steel, paper/wood products, grain exports, aircraft, and clothing manufacturing. The majority of workers in these industries were not white collar/skilled.

However, two factors differentiate them from the demographic development of rust-belt industrial cities [[as you elude to in your post, Al): one is the actual overall number of jobs. Since the majority of the US population was centered east for the first two centuries, Portland never became a Pittsburgh in steel or offered the sheer number of factory jobs that the auto industry did in Detroit.

Second is the geographic distance for migration required by people of all ethnicities, including blacks, whose majority population was in the south----particularly in the days pre-dating accessibility to air travel, telephone, internet, etc. MI was a long way from MS by train or bus, but practically right around the corner compared to OR & WA.

This is also reflected in the case of Los Angeles. Despite its world renowned image as the entertainment factory of the country, heavy industry & manufacturing were at the core of its economy right up until the 1990-1992 recession. However, as an overall percentage of the city’s population, blacks never exceeded about 12%, reflecting the overall US percentage almost exactly

[iheartthed]

Black Americans aren't as prevalent in cities like Seattle and Portland because those areas weren't as easily accessible from the South as the Northeast and Midwest. Migration patterns during the Great Migration had as much to do with transportation availability as it did available jobs. The major train routes from the southeast connected the migrants with the big cities of the northeast and midwest for cheap. Even to this day, the majority of African Americans reside in the southeast, followed by the Midwest, then the Northeast and finally the Western regions.

[michiganmushrooms]

I have to agree with markseth about Seattle being color-blind. Compared to Detroit, and Michigan at large it is a multi-cultural paradise. And after living there for a number of years I have to question it's 'whiteness'. Just a non-scientific survey on my walk to work or the grocery store it would seem as though whites were a minority. This may have just been in the areas were I lived and visited, but there are a great many people of Asian decent, Latino and to a lesser extent African.

Portland on the other hand, that is a white bread city right there.

[Novine]

"Definitely a blog to bookmark... thanks again."

For those who might get the idea that he only writes about big cities, some of Aaron's best blog posts, from my perspective, are what he has to say about places like Novi and what they need to do to avoid going down the path of many declining inner-ring suburbs. Lots of people write about the problems of the big cities. Few are writing about the 'burbs and what they should be doing today to make them more attractive and livable places. Aaron's one of the best at that.

[Retroit]

In order to understand why white cities are more progressive than black cities, the following question should be answered: What prevents black people from progressing?

[Danny]

mwilbert sez... "Also I read the blog piece you referenced. I don't really think that the author is looking at this fairly. For instance, he seems to be saying that the Portland growth boundary keeps out minorities by raising property prices within the growth boundary much like restrictive zoning keeps minorities out of expensive suburbs by keeping prices high. "

The author's critique is TRUE! Not just Portland growing property rates keeping minorities out of their beautiful white neighborhoods, but also white cities like San Francisco, Seattle, Minneapolis and Boston and any other white American cities. American urban studies professors contended that if you experiment real estate covenant steering to the poor, the property values will definately drop right away. What white city in this 'DIVIDED' States of America want to have over 10 to 100 blacks Mexicans, Hispanics, Asians and Arab folks living in their pleasantville community? Surely hundeds of white folks would flight away to the suburbs in about 20 years.

Right now Washington D.C. Once a ' white city' later become a 'black city' since the late 1970s had experience a rapid decline of Black population from 70% in 1980 to 55% in 2009 while the white population increase from 25% in 1970 to near 40% in 2009. WOW! what a turnaround. I wish Detroit could do the same.


WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

Check out Livonia, MI. a white city here, a white city now, a white city forever!

Neda Soltani, you will be remembered.

[rooms222]

Exactly ten years ago, I went to Portland. I had no rental car. It was wonderful to use only public transit to get around [[even in the non-downtown areas). The downtown had both stores and bars [[including national chains such as ROSS Dress for Less), a free zone for anyone to ride transit at no cost within the immediate downtown, and light rail to go out from downtown.

Some of the unusual things..... 1) On Friday and Saturday nights, the buses and trains were FULL of drunken citizens, some of whom were causing trouble, including banging menacingly on the buses, not paying the fare, fighting, yelling, and acting in pretty scary groups. I have felt somewhat uncomfortable in such transit settings as 1) Drunks on LIRR and Metro North, 2) Drunks on NYC subway, including ones wanting to pick a fight and others dropping pants in front of kids, 3) High Schoolers showing off and acting menacingly on city buses when school gets out in both Detroit and Chicago, but Portland was by far the most out of control situation I have seen in 25 years of being a transit rider.....

2) The historically black area of Portland was already becoming a trendy urban pioneer area with many longtime residents selling their homes and others moving in. I met some people from that neighborhood, and, as renters, they felt like they had the worst of both worlds----- still dangerous to them at night [[i.e. might get shot), but constant upward pressure on rents, when jobs did not pay too much.....

3) The light rail system allows anyone on [[no turnstyles). You keep your receipt and there are spot checks at some stations and on the train for compliance that you paid your fare.....$275 fine for non-compliance.....

[bailey]

In order to understand why white cities are more progressive than black cities, the following question should be answered: What prevents black people from progressing?

Around here, the only answer that anyone will accept is; "L. Brooks Patterson"

[izzyindetroit]

I think it is unfair to put Seattle on a list of White Cities. One of the world's greatest songs was produced and recorded there, by the one and only Sir Mix-a-lot.

On top of that you all are forgetting that Seattle is way more asian and native pacifician than it is white or black.