Preservation Wayne's 2009 list of Detroit's most-endangered sites.

[kraig]

October 21, 2009http://detnews.com/article/20091021/BIZ/910210330Fairgrounds, Detroit school buildings among city's most-endangered sites

LOUIS AGUILAR
The Detroit News Preservation Wayne's 2009 list of Detroit's most-endangered sites range from the city's last synagogue structure to historic Fort Wayne to the Michigan State Fairgrounds.
The city's oldest and largest architectural preservation organization will formally announce the list at its annual member event Thursday night at the renovated Whittier Park near Belle Isle. The group issues the list each year in hopes of rallying public attention to the buildings and sites.
"The most difficult task in compiling the list was narrowing the selection to only 10," said Karen Nagher, executive director of the nonprofit.
The list, in fact, contains more than 10 sites. That's because it includes dozens of vacant Detroit Public Schools buildings. This year 29 schools were shuttered, bringing the number of vacant school buildings to 85, according to Detroit Public Schools. The city's population is less than half of its peak of 1.8 million in 1950.
The list also can prompt debate about what to save in a city full of dead buildings, dwindling population and tough economics. The U.S. Postal Service counts 62,000 vacant parcels in the city.
Preservationist fan Robin Boyle, chair of Wayne State University's Urban Planning and Geography department, took exception to the list.
"The Packard Plant? Really? That's impossible" to save, Boyle said.
Boyle has said the discussion needs to focus on which buildings have become obsolete and which can be saved.
"Iconic buildings that are of importance, of course, need to be saved. The city needs to identify partnership with private enterprises that are willing to invest," he said. "But you cannot expect the city or state, with its diminished resources, to shoulder the costs and let the properties be mothballed and preserved for perpetuity."
Another building on the list, the United Artists building in Grand Circus Park, was cited because the preservation group fears owner Ilitch Holdings Inc. may be preparing to tear it down.
Not true, said Karen Cullen, a spokeswoman for Ilitch Holdings.
"We continue to market the site for redevelopment,'" she said.
There's more hope for some than others on the list. The Isaac Agree Downtown Synagogue has seen an infusion of young people working to save it.
laguilar@detnews.com">laguilar@detnews.com [[313) 222-2760
© Copyright 2009 The Detroit News. All rights reserved.


There are some properties on that list that are not owned by the City. Therefore, all of you preservationists, that believed the City controlled all of the buildings downtown, have the opportunity to connect with the owners. Perhaps with the right help these buildings won't suffer the same fate as the Lafayette Building.

[PQZ]

Preservationist fan Robin Boyle, chair of Wayne State University's Urban Planning and Geography department, took exception to the list.
"The Packard Plant? Really? That's impossible" to save, Boyle said.
Boyle has said the discussion needs to focus on which buildings have become obsolete and which can be saved.
"Iconic buildings that are of importance, of course, need to be saved. The city needs to identify partnership with private enterprises that are willing to invest," he said. "But you cannot expect the city or state, with its diminished resources, to shoulder the costs and let the properties be mothballed and preserved for perpetuity."

Interesting. Here's a guy that trains all sorts of new planners every year, including more than a couple of the favored posters here, a guy who takes students on international trips to try to shake some sense in to them about the possibilities of urban spaces, a guy who is very well respected in his field and has won numerous awards and led his students to numerous awards...will he be villified here for saying that mothballing is not a wise use of limited resource? Will he be villified for suggesting the preservation community needs to get more proactive and partner with developers? Will he be villified for snorting at the futility of some of the buildings listed? Perhaps FNemecek could use another one of his McCarthy tricks and whisper darkly about rumors of graft and embezzlement at WSU to try to get him to shut up.....

[REL]

The list is interesting because of it's diversity. You have a mix of residential, commercial, religious properties, city-owned & privately-owned, in various geographic areas, vacant & occupied, in operating condition and some in ruin.

I think the lesson of this list is... what can we do to prevent a site like the Fairgrounds from evolving into a site like the Packard plant?

I look forward to discussing the list at Preservation Wayne's Annual Membership Meeting on Thursday evening [[shameless plug). Hope to see all you keyboard preservationists there! Not too late to RSVP: www.preservationwayne.org

[kraig]

PQZ, I was surprised that Robin Boyle was merely listed as a preservation fan. This guy's credentials are off the charts. He's pretty much the EF Hutton of Urban Development.

[PQZ]

Kraig: Indeed Boyle is well respected and is a very unique blend of pragmatism and vision. I had the pleasure of touring Scotland with him looking at preservation as an economic development tool and looking at regeneration case studies acroos a range of cities. Glasgow in particular has done a stellar job of celebrating its architectural heritage and using it to attract the young and upwardly mobile from all across the UK. They did it in stereotypically Scottish fashion by looking at the bottom line of each and every project and making hard choices when necessary and moving on. The city leadership, whether elected, appointed or community representatives focused on solutions that maximized very scarce resources and not whinging about the hard decisions. Look forward. Do what is necessary. Move on.

And ya know what? By being pragmatic, focused and market driven they have been able to actually get projects done and save a significant portion of their history. They don't waste their time and energy on obsessively revisiting past decisions and trying to save every little cobblestone.

Its amazing, when you stop talking and start doing, things get done.

[Fnemecek]

Will he be vilified for suggesting the preservation community needs to get more proactive and partner with developers? Will he be vilified for snorting at the futility of some of the buildings listed? Perhaps FNemecek could use another one of his McCarthy tricks and whisper darkly about rumors of graft and embezzlement at WSU to try to get him to shut up.....

There's no need to vilify Robin Boyle for this or anything else. PW thinks that the Packard Plant can be saved; Mr. Boyle doesn't. There's no need to vilify anyone over something like that.

As for "McCarthy tricks" and "whispering darkly", that is total malarkey. We both know that I rarely whisper about anything.

When I see something that reeks of corruption - such as the DEGC's decision to spend more than $125,000 to put plywood over some of the broken windows in the Metropolitan Building [[which works out to approximately $700 per window for a simple board up) - I make specific and vocal allegations. More importantly, I back them with numbers, cite my sources and do it all in a public forum where anyone can question or refute them.

If any of that sounds like a McCarthy trick then you obviously don't know much about McCarthyism.

[PQZ]

There's no need to vilify Robin Boyle for this or anything else. PW thinks that the Packard Plant can be saved; Mr. Boyle doesn't. There's no need to vilify anyone over something like that.

As for "McCarthy tricks" and "whispering darkly", that is total malarkey. We both know that I rarely whisper about anything.

When I see something that reeks of corruption - such as the DEGC's decision to spend more than $125,000 to put plywood over some of the broken windows in the Metropolitan Building [[which works out to approximately $700 per window for a simple board up) - I make specific and vocal allegations. More importantly, I back them with numbers, cite my sources and do it all in a public forum where anyone can question or refute them.

If any of that sounds like a McCarthy trick then you obviously don't know much about McCarthyism.

Apparently you have not bothered to ask the DDA for a copy of the contract to see exactly what was covered in the $125,000. Instead you have chosen to simply take a couple random facts and deduce corruption and falsely accuse people. Instead you continue to accuse public agencies of coverup when you can't get off your fat lazy ass and make a basic phone call or two. Sounds like McCarthyism to me

Seeing as that contract, which I personally supervised, was nearly five years ago, the exact numbers are a bit fuzzy. However, the contract included the following items.

1. Closure of the alleyways on both sides of the Metropolitan and temporary relocation of trash dumpsters. This includes temporary fencing and alley closure permits and renting space for the relocated trash dumpsters as the alleys were, well, closed. Also temporary closures of parts of John R. including signage, flagmen and all other required safety measures.

2. Removal of debris that had fallen off the building.

3. Investigation by engineers and architects to assess the potential for further spalling and delamination of architectural elemenents from the building.

4. Devising an immediate solution to the loose facade materials, whether physically removing material from the buildings or fashioning tiebacks / other securing systems to prevent further decay

5. Mobilizing man-lifts capable of reaching 15 stories and implementing the facade stabilization program which included strategic material removal and installation of material securing systems.

6. Removal and replacement of collapsed and vandalized plywood coverings on the first floor of the building

7. Removal of vegation from the roof of the building.

8. Designing, fabricating and installing some 175 - 200 or so plywood window coverings over windows that were broken. Each covering required two sheets of marine grade plywood, 2X4 framing, 2X6 anchor systems, painting and, to ensure the safe installation a work crew of three people. The covering systems had to be assmbled off site, trucked in and lifted in to place.

9. Temporary installation of all necessary work infrastructure such as generators, lighting, portajohns.

The EJG bid was one of four that were solicited. One firm declined to respond. The others, Western Waterproofing and ???? were both well in to the $250,000 range.

So fuck off. Get your facts in order before you shoot your mouth off about corruption and embezzlement.

What amazes me is that you have not lifted a meaningful finger to do a damn thing in the City preservation wise yet you feel utterly entitled to make false and public accusations about corruption when you have incomplete facts - against the very people that went out and actually did something about you precious little Book Cadillac. You're nothing but a fraudulent little coward.

So theres' my numbers, where are yours and where are your citations?

[detourdetroit]

What PQZ forgot from his long ago RFP was that #10 required the successful bidder to become a corporate member of Preservation Wayne.

[Fnemecek]

What PQZ forgot from his long ago RFP was that #10 required the successful bidder to become a corporate member of Preservation Wayne.

Well, that changes everything.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have some t-shirts to go print.

[Gistok]

I think that the purpose of the Preservation Wayne list was buried within the article in this statement....

"The list also can prompt debate about what to save in a city full of dead buildings, dwindling population and tough economics."

I agree that the Packard Plant is a low priority item in these days of "scarce preservtion dollars". And it certainly wouldn't be in my list.

"I think the lesson of this list is... what can we do to prevent a site like the Fairgrounds from evolving into a site like the Packard plant? "

AroundTown, well stated. It's a good question... do we mothball/secure as much as we can, or do we just let it go the way of other sites. I'll see you at the PW meeting tomorrow.

The news article incorrectly mentioned the meeting will be at Whittier Park... it will be at the Whittier Hotel! [[Looking forrward to seeing the interior...)

Well... so far Professor Boyle's name remains unbesmirched...

[REL]

Thanks, Gistok. Looking forward to seeing you.

The Whittier Park is correct, as that is the newer name. The Whittier Hotel is out of business

[d.mcc]

Whats so wrong with being a McCarthy?

[Gistok]

Thanks, Gistok. Looking forward to seeing you.

The Whittier Park is correct, as that is the newer name. The Whittier Hotel is out of business

LOL... thanks AroundTown, see you there... they only mentioned "Whittier" on the invite!

[1953]

I would like to vilify Mr. Boyle, because I don't want to see Detroit lose any significant historic structures.

[buildingsofdetroit]

""The Packard Plant? Really? That's impossible" to save, Boyle said."

My thoughts exactly. Ditto Lee Plaza.
In my opinion, putting those two on the list makes PW look like it doesn't have a clue. Just my .02.

[56packman]

The Packard community [[auto buffs loyal to Packard) has no interest in the plant now that all historical portions have been removed and the building so completely wrecked. It needs to come down, and no one knows who will pay for that. The city and state killed it, it was in OK shape [[not good, not great, just OK) before the 1999 pogram began.

[Russix]

^also it was somewhat in productive use at the time too. Big scam on this one. If I remember correctly, an Archer family member/relative championed that they could tear it down for 5 million. I never knew buildings were designed to withstand corruption.

[REL]

buildingsofdetroit- PW isn't saying the Packard plant can or should be saved. They're just trying to bring attention to the site. Buildings on the list are in a variety of states between current use and a lost cause.

Including the Packard on the list opens up the difficult discussion about at what point the preservation community should abandon hope for a particular site. And what happens after something is acknowledged to be "beyond hope"? And how do we prevent other sites from getting to that point before it's "too late"?

That is why it is on the list. [[Great blog, by the way)

[PQZ]

buildingsofdetroit- PW isn't saying the Packard plant can or should be saved. They're just trying to bring attention to the site. Buildings on the list are in a variety of states between current use and a lost cause.

Including the Packard on the list opens up the difficult discussion about at what point the preservation community should abandon hope for a particular site. And what happens after something is acknowledged to be "beyond hope"? And how do we prevent other sites from getting to that point before it's "too late"?

That is why it is on the list. [[Great blog, by the way)

1. What purpose does that "attention" serve? Will it advance the demolition of a dangerous structure? Will it advance the renovation of the structure? It seems with all the abandoned and challenged building in Detroit, simply pointing out that, yep, here's one that has been all over the new lately serves no purpose except to waste time and point out the obvious.

2. After what, 20 years of existence? and having a board comprised of the luminaries of preservation, PW still hasn't gotten their act together on understanding when a structure might be "too far gone?" What the hell has the organization been doing the last 20 years?

Come on people, this shit isn't new.

While PW and others sit around and navel gaze, things are happening right under your noses. Man the fuck up and start doing something besides talking to each other and wringing hands over the people who are taking action. The time for talk was 25 years ago. Get moving on real and meaningful action on something besides a two - bit local version of the NTHP endangered building schtick. Pick one or two buildings that are really important and have a chance at being salvaged and HELP.

[rjlj]

Sometimes it is hard to help when the lying inept powers at be are in bed with a single developer and will do what ever that developer says.

[PQZ]

Sometimes it is hard to help when the lying inept powers at be are in bed with a single developer and will do what ever that developer says.

So true, so true.

If only the city enforced tax collection and building code violations against that developer instead of hornswoggling the State to overpay $3.3 million for a building the developer has already destroyed and if only the city didn't allow the same developer to hang a three acre billboard on the side of a historic building ...and then not follow through on predevelopment work.

Oh well, maybe that developer can throw a few dollars at the Leland so Detroit Dad can get a semi functioning elevator.

[Gistok]

1. What purpose does that "attention" serve? Will it advance the demolition of a dangerous structure? Will it advance the renovation of the structure? It seems with all the abandoned and challenged building in Detroit, simply pointing out that, yep, here's one that has been all over the new lately serves no purpose except to waste time and point out the obvious.

Are you really that daft that you don't comprehend what purpose "attention" serves?

Would Orchestra Hall still be around had one of DSO's musicians not brought ATTENTION to the fact that it was going to be torn down for a pizza joint?

Would Ferry Ave. be a stately historic home success story with "infill" housing were it not for the ATTENTION that it got as a historic neighborhood?

Would the United Artists Building still be an open-to-tresspassers Hobo-Hilton had the National Trust not brought national ATTENTION to how the Ilitch's were "maintaining" their building?

2. After what, 20 years of existence? and having a board comprised of the luminaries of preservation, PW still hasn't gotten their act together on understanding when a structure might be "too far gone?" What the hell has the organization been doing the last 20 years?

I guess you need to get out more often...

Would downtown loft development have started had Preservation Wayne not sponsored the Loft Development Workshops for building owners and developers?

Preservation Wayne also cleaned out tons of fallen debris from the interior of the city owned National Theatre so that it could be made presentable for developers.

Preservation Wayne gives dozens of tours to people from metro Detroit, Michigan and around the world, on the city's architectural and historic heritage.

Gotta keep it short... the Whittier is waiting...

[REL]

1. ... PW still hasn't gotten their act together on understanding when a structure might be "too far gone?"

Actually, if you would've listened to the full PW presentation tonight, the reason that the Packard Plant was on the list was to acknowledge the fact that sometimes, even in the preservation community, we must admit when something is "too far gone". It was on the list for context, and to admit that if a building isn't made stable & secure, it'll end up as the next Packard Plant.

It's better to listen to the presentation reason instead of relying on a soundbyte.

[[PQZ, please ease up on the personal attacks. It's not contributing anything constructive or civil to the discussion)

[Gistok]

AroundTown, I too was there and also listened to the presentation.

Unfortunately the News reporter should have done his homework and asked PW about the list instead of taking and running with it like he did.

As for PQZ... he's been like that forever... the pitfalls of the "artistic temperament"... moments of brilliance peppered with scathing critique...

[Toolbox]

Gotta keep it short... the Whittier is waiting...

Wonder if all the contractors that have done work at The Whittier have been paid in full?

I had a contractor tell me a very humerous story of what it took to get paid for his services.