Pumping gas underground

[littlebuddy]

I have heard that they want to pump waste gas from power plants underground so it is not released into the air. Can't they do something with this gas? Does it burn or can it be combinded with something else for good use?

[ccbatson]

Waste meaning the products of combustion can't be burned at a net gain of energy. More energy would need to be added which defeats the purpose.

[elganned]

The "waste gas" they refer to is CO2. The idea is to seal it underground. I don't know the physics involved, but it sounds difficult and expensive.

[gnome]

Actually both DTE and Consumers Power store massive amounts of natural gas in several former gas fields here in SE Michigan. These fields are comprised of rock and they ship gas up from the Gulf and store it for later use. True. The weird thing about the rock is that it looks like regular old rock but apparently it is porous. One of those gas fields is up in Romeo and covers hundreds of acres. Another field is in Warren ...

When I first learned of this I thought that the gas field was simular to an empty cavern, but it isn't like that. It is just a natural formation of solid rock that is deep underground.

Another weird thing is that there are a bunch of different companies that rent storage space in these fields. Once they rent this space they either fill it up with gas, or they re-sell their space to someone who wants to store their gas there. It is a complete little strange economy of people buying and selling either current space, or future space, to each other. They even sell space they don't have to people who don't have gas to not put it there. You'll have to re-read that last sentence, because it seemingly makes no sense, but millions of dollars are exchanged daily over those gas fields in Romeo.

Now I don't know if Co2 can be stored in these old gas fields, but it is an interesting notion. The thing I'd wonder about is whether other heavy metals would be part of that waste Co2. If heavy metals were part of the Co2, I'd think that it would perc down to ground water. Personally I'm not a fan of mercury in my drinking water.

[MikeM]

Actually both DTE and Consumers Power store massive amounts of natural gas in several former gas fields here in SE Michigan. These fields are comprised of rock and they ship gas up from the Gulf and store it for later use. True. The weird thing about the rock is that it looks like regular old rock but apparently it is porous. One of those gas fields is up in Romeo and covers hundreds of acres.

Michigan has the largest gas storage fields of any state in the country.

[Det_ard]

Michigan has the largest gas storage fields of any state in the country.

I had no idea. Thanks.

Any good links to learn more?

[rb336]

http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/mpsc/gas/storage.htm

[ccbatson]

Yet Democrats continue to restrict the ability to access this [[and other) natural resources in favor of immature and expensive alternates that serve to enrich and empower themselves.

[MikeM]

I had no idea. Thanks.

Any good links to learn more?

The EIA is always a good place to start:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/natur...tural_gas.html


Storage related topics:

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/ng/ng_stor_top.asp


The NGSA's educational website:

http://www.naturalgas.org/index.asp


Browse around FERC's gas site too:

http://www.ferc.gov/industries/gas.asp

That should get you started.

[Det_ard]

Excellent. Thank you.

[ccbatson]

What do you suppose will happen if plug in electric vehicles become popular and go on an already insufficient power grid with government restrictions on improving infrastructure?

[MikeM]

It's hardly a problem so who cares? And what does it have to do with underground storage? Are you a meth addict or is it just adult ADHD?

[rb336]

Yet Democrats continue to restrict the ability to access this [[and other) natural resources in favor of immature and expensive alternates that serve to enrich and empower themselves.

Bats prefers the old system that destroys habitats in favor of enriching the coffers of a small number of people

[elganned]

It's hardly a problem so who cares? And what does it have to do with underground storage? Are you a meth addict or is it just adult ADHD?

Is this a poll? I vote for ADHD--although my preferred choice, OCD, isn't listed.

[ccbatson]

Which habitats are destroyed? The ones in the middle east? or the dumps for the cadmium used for solar panels? Or the bird population near these useless wind farms?

[Lorax]

For exmple, the one you're living in, "Doc."

Then again, do the undead need to breathe? Good question.

Oil and gas production/use destroy the ozone, and cause global warming/climate change, in case you haven't heard.

In addition to numerous oil slicks that destroy our oceans/coral reefs, etc.

Just last week a tanker spilled in the gulf- now there will be more oil slicked Florida beaches on the gulf coast.

Bring your lighter fluid to clean your feet off.

[Lorax]

Then again, just hook a hose up to Lush Bimbao's rear end, and his mouth, for that matter, and we'll solve our gas and wind power shortages.

Or, if it smells too bad, just pump that into the ground. We'll need more space, methinks.

[rb336]

Which habitats are destroyed? The ones in the middle east? or the dumps for the cadmium used for solar panels? Or the bird population near these useless wind farms?

1) avian deaths related to wind power: 0.01/kwH
avian deaths related to coal power: 5.3/kwH
2) where, exactly, are the cadmium dumps? oh, they don't exist.
Cadmium teluride, fyi, is a waste product from the production of Zinc, solar panels have a typical lifespan of

[rb336]

Which habitats are destroyed? The ones in the middle east? or the dumps for the cadmium used for solar panels? Or the bird population near these useless wind farms?

1) avian deaths related to wind power: 0.01/kwH
avian deaths related to coal power: 5.3/kwH
2) where, exactly, are the cadmium dumps? oh, they don't exist.
Cadmium teluride, fyi, is a waste product from the production of Zinc, solar panels have a typical lifespan of 25 years, and solar panel makers are already making preperations for recaptuing the cadmium teluride from the panels at the end of their lives

btw -- using moronic phrases like "useless windfarms" simply makes you sound like nothing but a mindless blowhard

[3WC]

CO2 sequestration by injecting it into depleted oil and gas fields is a proven, simple technology. The difficult part is capturing the CO2, usually a by-product of a manufacturing or refining activity. It's done a several places in the U.S.

However, the injection of the subsurface CO2 is usually fought by technologically ignorant folks or radical environmentalists who tend to cut off their noses to spite their faces. For example, Shell Oil recently planned to inject 400,000 tons of CO2 per year generated by one of its refineries into a depleted offshore [[from Holland) gas field. The CO2 would be injected from a facility [[well) onshore, through the ocean, but under the earth by a horizontal lateral well to the gas field. The local residents objected, sued, and the project was abandoned. NIMBY at work.

The depleted fields into which the CO2 is injected are 1000s of feet below the surface.

CO2 is also a natural substance found underground. There are many CO2 wells here in Texas. The CO2, produced from deep underground, is piped to producing oil fields and injected into them, creating artificial subsurface pressure which pushes the oil towards the producing oil wells. [[I do this in my field with sometimes highly corrosive salt water which is produced with the oil. The water is separated from the oil and injected under high pressure through 23 injection wells back into the oil producing formations from 2000 to 4400 feet beneath the surface. The process is called secondary recovery. We produce and inject about 1,400,000 gallons per day. Perfectly safe when monitored as we and other producers do pursuant to strict regulations of our State regulatory agency.

A poster above is correct with respect with respect to Michigan's gas storage capacity, the highest in the country. There is not nearly enough pipeline capacity to deliver sufficient natural gas to Michigan during the heating season. So, gas is sent to M all summer, stored underground, and drawn down during peak use periods. MI is very fortunate that way.

Rb posted a list of storage fields in MI. I hadn't realized there were that many. I started out in the oil and gas business in the early '60s and was involved in the development of the Belle River Mills gas field in St. Claire County. It was a small but very prolific field with a couple of wells capable of producing over 300,000,000 cu ft a day on test. That's about as big as gas wells get anywhere. The wells produced from the Niagaran limestone formation at about 2500 feet as I recall. The field was a pinnacle reef containing highly porous limestone in which the gas was trapped. That field was never produced. MichCon used it's right to invoke imminent domain, had the field condemned, and used it as a storage field. That was in the mid-'60's and it's still in use today probably. The owners of the wells were of course paid a ton of money after years of litigation over the value of the then gas-in-place.

I digress. Injection of CO2 is a recognized, technically feasible, cheap, and practical way to dispose of CO2 rather than let it dissipate into the atmosphere. For those of you who think that's important, keep it in mind.

[ccbatson]

CO2 IS NOT A HARMFUL SUBSTANCE regarding the environment..THE LIBERAL'S PREMISE IS FLAWED.

[East Detroit]

CO2 IS NOT A HARMFUL SUBSTANCE regarding the environment..THE LIBERAL'S PREMISE IS FLAWED.

Then why not just release it into the atmosphere?

[3WC]

Most CO2 generated by industrial processes IS released into the atmosphere. It is NOT harmful to humans. The argument is that it causes global warming.

Earth scientists know that at one or more times in the earth's history [[4 billion+ years) the earth's atmosphere was PRIMARILY CO2.

The earth has experienced many radical changes in climate, both swings to intense global warming to numerous periods of global cooling; there have been many "ice ages", the last one effecting North America having ended about 12,000 years ago. After all, Michigan was covered by a mile of ice then. So, of course we are in a period of global warming and have been for over 12,000 years. It is only a matter of time until we undergo another period of global cooling-another ice age.

Man has been keeping accurate - and many say not so accurate - temperature records for about 400 years, not even a blink in geologic time. There is no conclusive evidence that man is accelerating global warming; there is, however, a so-called "consensus" by about 900 commentators who formulated the latest U.N. "study" upon which people rely to support their unscientific view of the issue. A majority of the participants in the U.N. "study" are not even scientists. Our representatives are willing to destroy our economy based on junk science. We are lucky that most other world leaders, while paying lip service to the U.S.'s cries of panic, have no intention of destroying their economies. I think they sit back and say, "Let those idiots do whatever they want and we'll soon have all their manufacturing jobs."

[Lorax]

CO2 IS NOT A HARMFUL SUBSTANCE regarding the environment..THE LIBERAL'S PREMISE IS FLAWED.

Keep drinking the Kool Aid.

No one credible says CO2 is harmful to humans- it's when it's released in such large quantities into the atomsphere, in addition to us denuding the rainforests and the rest of the planet of vegetation that the result is harmful to humans.

When you have time-lapse photography of snow capped mountains showing retreating glaciers to the point there is no more ice or snow left, then I'm a believer.

New archaeological discoveries are popping up from previously frozen parts of our planet due to this phenomenon. The pace at which this is happening is alarming, not the fact that it is happening- the earth has been doing this for millenia.

Just another example that you are not credible as a "doctor", for a real doctor would understand the basics and embrace proven science rather than junk science propaganda spewed by the fascist media.

[3WC]

Lorax, you are an endless source of amusement. Remember the film clips of the little kids singing "Barak Hussein Obama, mmm, mmm, mmm?" The absolutely first thing I thought of was you, having apparently been brainwashed from an early age.

I'm sure that you idolize Al Gore and hang on his every word. The difference is that he's apparently making millions off his schtick and you're picking oranges in FL.

I don't pretend to be an climate expert, as you apparently do, but as a result of the business I'm in I have an inordinate interest in the issue. I also rely heavily for info from my geologist, probably the best petroleum geologist in North Texas, and a recognized expert in climate change, which is his true love. I doubt that if you ever have the opportunity to confer with someone who knows what he or she is talking about regarding this issue that you'll change your mind, but who knows.

I have been to Alaska at least 25 time and have backpacked in many areas south of Fairbanks down to Chichicof Island. I have hiked on and around glaciers, particularly off the 900 sq mile Harding ice field, and the Kennecot glacier, and and while it's true that Northern Alaska is experiencing a natural increase in temperatures, glaciers in other areas of the State are expanding.

Fly into Anchorage and you'll see more ice and more glaciers than you could imagine existed, and many of those are growing.

The 2 most famous glaciers in AK are the Exit glacier in Seward and the Mendenhall glacier in Juneau. I've been on both. The Exit glacier has been receding for a long time - 10 miles since 1890, at a steady rate, and the Mendenhall glacier, which was formed about 3500 years ago, has been receding since 1750. That's based on visual evidence kept by Russians when they occupied the area in 1750 or thereabout.

Alaska has experienced 11 confirmed periods of glaciation; ice during one or two periods covered the ENTIRE state.

Mountainous areas throughout the world influence their own climate, depending on many factors. Buy a good book on basic geology, or glaciation, and learn something. I presume that is at least theoretically possibly.