Close Woodward off to traffic?

[iheartthed]

What if after a light rail line is built on Woodward, it is closed to vehicular traffic between Wayne State and the river? The freeway capacity seems like it could easily handle the cars pushed off of Woodward with little problem. What would be the ups and downs?

[Detroitnerd]

That's ridiculous on its face.

Why not ask what if the moon were made of green cheese? It seems like NASA would be able to moon-mine enough cheese to feed Gary, Ind.

[EastsideAl]

This was done downtown back in the late '70s on Woodward south of Grand Circus. Only a center lane was left open for buses and emergency vehicles. It was a disaster then, and was part of what drove the last nail in the coffin of the downtown retail district.

[Detroitnerd]

OK, seriously, though:

Woodward is wide enough to accommodate light rail AND cars.

Woodward is legally not a dedicated right-of-way for rail. It would be difficult to justify closing traffic on the main street in town. It's a designated state road. I would think MDOT or Lansing would raise eyebrows at the least.

Why would residents and business owners accede to a plan that forbade delivery trucks, ambulances, police cruisers or taxicabs on Woodward?

Freeway access [[limited places to get on and off) may be fine for "through" capacity, but, seriously, most people driving on Woodward are going someplace on or near Woodward.

I imagine it was just an idle thought anyway ...

[313WX]

This is officially the dumbest thread of the year.

I seriously hope iheartthed was just playing a cruel joke on us.

[iheartthed]

This article is what made me think about it: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/14/re...WT.mc_ev=click

[hybridy]

theres no critical mass of retail, pedestrians, or dependable mass transit that would ever warrant such a change in the city. JUST AN AWFUL IDEA-sorry

[dcmorrison12]

iheartthed -

I beleive you have forgotten. This is Metro Detroit. People don't like to walk around here.

There's definitely more walking traffic from WSU to the River, however, not enough to warrant a full avenue. Plus, visitors from out of the city wouldn't buy it. Metro Detroit suburbanites [[possibly suburbanites from other metro regions too) hate to walk. I grew up there for 18 years.

[Detroitnerd]

They float a similar plan in New York every few years. But note some important differences:

* 42nd Street is not a major thoroughfare.

* It's a crosstown street clogged with foot traffic.

* It has a subway running underneath it.

* Its buildings that mostly have dedicated delivery entrances.

[bailey]

iheartthed -

I beleive you have forgotten. This is Metro Detroit. People don't like to walk around here.

There's definitely more walking traffic from WSU to the River, however, not enough to warrant a full avenue. Plus, visitors from out of the city wouldn't buy it. Metro Detroit suburbanites [[possibly suburbanites from other metro regions too) hate to walk. I grew up there for 18 years.

But all of Detroit LOVES to walk? If so, how is it a city of 900,000 couldn't support a closed off Woodward?

[Fury13]

This article is what made me think about it: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/14/re...WT.mc_ev=click

You are taking an idea that MIGHT work for a walkable, crowded city and trying to adapt it to Detroit. In most cities, there is not enough foot traffic on sidewalks to justify such a street closure -- NYC could be the exception because of its sheer size and density.

Not only did Detroit try it already with Woodward -- Chicago tried it too, with its "State Street Mall," which allowed buses only. Both cases were huge failures. The closed portions of the streets began to resemble ghost towns. Eventually, Chicago restored State Street to allowing through vehicular traffic and the strip was revitalized. Not so with Woodward... as said earlier, the restricted traffic resulted in the "nails in the coffin."

Every so often this idea is proposed because someone thinks "it will look prettier" and we'll get rid of those nasty cars. And sure, everyone will naturally just be dying to go there and walk the length of the pedestrian mall. Sure they will.

[Novine]

Bad idea. This has been tried in all kinds of places in the US and in most, the idea has been reversed, often after feeling the crippling impact on local businesses.

[iheartthed]

You are taking an idea that MIGHT work for a walkable, crowded city and trying to adapt it to Detroit. In most cities, there is not enough foot traffic on sidewalks to justify such a street closure -- NYC could be the exception because of its sheer size and density.

Actually, I just asked for a debate on the pros and cons. I haven't actually said whether I think this is a good idea for Woodward.

But I tried to make it as apples to apples of a comparison as possible. Woodward is the Detroit version of 42nd St., and if there were a light rail line on Woodward then there would at least be a way to shuttle large numbers of people down the road in the most unobstructed way for pedestrians. I think that makes it a little different from what Detroit and Chicago tried before.

[Retroit]

I think it is a grand idea. The homeless will have more areas to camp out. The road will not have to be paved every so many years, nor will it have to be plowed when it snows. We could even let the vegetation overgrow and claim that we are being "environmentally conscious".

[Detroitnerd]

Actually, I just asked for a debate on the pros and cons. I haven't actually said whether I think this is a good idea for Woodward.

But I tried to make it as apples to apples of a comparison as possible. Woodward is the Detroit version of 42nd St., and if there were a light rail line on Woodward then there would at least be a way to shuttle large numbers of people down the road in the most unobstructed way for pedestrians. I think that makes it a little different from what Detroit and Chicago tried before.

Take it from a guy who lived in New York for more than a decade: Forty-second Street is not New York's Woodward. BROADWAY is New York's Woodward.

The only place I have seen the pedestrian-only concept work well is on Bourbon Street in New Orleans. And cars get to use it until around 6 p.m., when it's closed off and then ped-only.

[Fury13]

The only place I have seen the pedestrian-only concept work well is on Bourbon Street in New Orleans. And cars get to use it until around 6 p.m., when it's closed off and then ped-only.

Using that paradigm, pedestrian-only might work for Royal Oak's Main Street on weekend evenings.

[dcmorrison12]

But all of Detroit LOVES to walk? If so, how is it a city of 900,000 couldn't support a closed off Woodward?

You know, it's funny. I've looked through my previous post over and over again. I cannot find where I said "all of Detroit LOVES to walk." It must've walked away.

What I said was Metro Detroit hates to walk. Last time I checked, Metro includes C of D proper and it's suburbs. Now, you definately find more walking traffic in the city, especially in New Center, Midtown, Downtown, and other areas.

But, in general, I would say in comparison to the burbs, people in the city do like to walk more.

[iheartthed]

Take it from a guy who lived in New York for more than a decade: Forty-second Street is not New York's Woodward. BROADWAY is New York's Woodward.

The only place I have seen the pedestrian-only concept work well is on Bourbon Street in New Orleans. And cars get to use it until around 6 p.m., when it's closed off and then ped-only.

I could see the case for Broadway being called New York's Woodward. But 42nd St is also a central, major thoroughfare which is why I made the analogy. I can't think of another roadway in Detroit -- other than Woodward -- that could be compared to 42nd St.

[Detroitnerd]

I could see the case for Broadway being called New York's Woodward. But 42nd St is also a central, major thoroughfare which is why I made the analogy. I can't think of another roadway in Detroit -- other than Woodward -- that could be compared to 42nd St.

Well, to explain the nature of Broadway:

* It starts downtown and goes out into the suburbs.

* It goes from the first area settled out into the newer areas settled.

* It is the most-traveled thoroughfare.

* It is the most transit-friendly thoroughfare.

Just by those benchmarks, 42nd Street doesn't begin to approach the importance of Broadway. And Broadway shares all those points with Woodward.

[detroitbob]

If Woodward could handle automobiles, streetcars, bicycles, some bus activity and even some horse drawn delivery carriages PLUS thousands of pedestrians from c1920-1955, it shouldn't be a problem today for those thousands meeting under the Kern clock at the height of the 5pm daily rush hour! ;>}

[iheartthed]

Well, to explain the nature of Broadway:

* It starts downtown and goes out into the suburbs.

* It goes from the first area settled out into the newer areas settled.

* It is the most-traveled thoroughfare.

* It is the most transit-friendly thoroughfare.

Just by those benchmarks, 42nd Street doesn't begin to approach the importance of Broadway. And Broadway shares all those points with Woodward.

I'm not denying any of this... I know Broadway well, since I lived within a block of it for 2 years... But 42nd St is also a central thoroughfare, and there is really no analogy for it in Detroit other than Woodward. No other roadway in Detroit cuts through the heart of downtown like Woodward.

[401don]

Didn't we tear down Hudson's so we could turn the basements into underground parking? If they can't park, how will they get to the vacant storefronts?

[Detroitnerd]

I'm not denying any of this... I know Broadway well, since I lived within a block of it for 2 years... But 42nd St is also a central thoroughfare, and there is really no analogy for it in Detroit other than Woodward. No other roadway in Detroit cuts through the heart of downtown like Woodward.

Oh, come on, iheart. There are plenty of crosstown thoroughfares you can compare 42nd Street with, to name a few:

Mack/MLK
Warren
Grand Boulevard
Davison
Eight Mile

See, these are CROSSTOWN streets. JUST LIKE 42ND STREET. Sheesh.

[iheartthed]

Oh, come on, iheart. There are plenty of crosstown thoroughfares you can compare 42nd Street with, to name a few:

Mack/MLK
Warren
Grand Boulevard
Davison
Eight Mile

See, these are CROSSTOWN streets. JUST LIKE 42ND STREET. Sheesh.

They are crosstown but they do not cut through the Central Business District...... Which was the point of my choosing Woodward.

[Detroitnerd]

Now you're just being silly. THERE IS NO CROSSTOWN THOROUGHFARE THAT CUTS THROUGH THE BUSINESS DISTRICT IN DETROIT. [[Unless you count old High Street, later renamed Vernor Highway, later cut into a depressed urban freeway.)