Noan Finley says, "Legalize Drugs"

[gnome]

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090...n+the+drug+war

Mexico's drug-fueled lawlessness is surging over our border. More than half our prison inmates are in for drug crimes, contributing to the shameful fact that Michigan spends more on Corrections than we do on colleges.
Detroit and other big cities have been dismantled by the drug gangs.
And the number of addicts remains constant.

This is a classic military quagmire. We respond to losing by deploying more troops instead of questioning the mission's viability. In 1986, Congress escalated spending, with the goal of ending the narcotics trade in 10 years.
And now we're about to undergo another major escalation to keep the anarchy in Mexico from destabilizing parts of our country.

Why not try something new? Take away the crime, and get rid of the criminals.
The drug cartels wouldn't have a market for their contraband if we legalized drugs. They'd be as obsolete as the Purple Gang.

Well, a conservative republican comes out in support of the legalize-it crowd. Better check on the temp in hell, I get the feeling it is pretty chilly.

With pot, cocaine and heroin legal ... can you imagine how much money won't be spent controlling the uncontrollable?

[East Detroit]

What makes him think the Purple Gang is obsolete?

[Crumbled_pavement]

With pot, cocaine and heroin legal ... can you imagine how much money won't be spent controlling the uncontrollable?

My question is this: if those drugs were legalized, would something stronger come out and continue to fuel the drug war? New drugs come out all the time.

[gnome]

I should have put the ellipses in a better location.

with pot, cocaine, heroin and ... legal

But you are correct, folks will dream up new ways to get blurry. It is the human condition. For some reason we like blurry.

I guess, my point with starting the thread was to point out that a mainstream Republican opinion maker/influencer had touched a third-rail for the law-and-order crowd. Granted Nolan stated view is not new, but within the Republican Party it is new. One could view his opinion as an appeal to the Libertarian wing [[get Government out of my personal business) of the Party, hence I wonder if Nolan's view will find any traction within the Repub powerbrokers.

If the Republican Party would take up the five-leafed flag, I wonder what collection of supporters they would find in their tent.

hmm, Gannon, Lowell and Django voting a straight Republican ticket? Surely, the seas would turn to fire, cats and dogs would marry, as the GOP becomes the Gram Ol Party.

[Sstashmoo]

Can't control it, so do away with the laws? Where do you stop that practice? Following that same logic, Rape is really just sex anyway. And murder? we all gotta go sometime.

Start enforcing the laws. Ever wonder why people rarely rob post offices? Stiff penalties.

[Gistok]

Can't control it, so do away with the laws? Where do you stop that practice? Following that same logic, Rape is really just sex anyway. And murder? we all gotta go sometime.

Start enforcing the laws. Ever wonder why people rarely rob post offices? Stiff penalties.

Sstashmoo, sorry to have to call you out on this but you are using the classic Slippery Slope fallacy in arguing your point... the same type of argument that law enforcement and governments use to try to prove their point.... but it's still a fallacy that does not follow logic.

Slippery Slope



Definition:

• In order to show that a proposition P is unacceptable, a sequence of increasingly unacceptable events is shown to follow from P. A slippery slope is an illegitimate use of the "if-then" operator.

Examples:

1. If we pass laws against fully-automatic weapons, then it won't be long before we pass laws on all weapons, and then we will begin to restrict other rights, and finally we will end up living in a communist state. Thus, we should not ban fully-automatic weapons.

[mclark]

It seems like the slippery slope is routinely employed in the argument against legalization. I don't know if full legalization/regulation of harder stuff like cocaine and heroin would be the way to go, but I think anyone with much common sense can realize that spending as much as this country does to prosecute pot crimes and lock people up for possession isn't doing any of us any good.

[Django]

Conservatives George Soros and William F. Buckley had been bringing up legalization for over a decade in response to the war on drugs. Now there are even more conservatives stepping up on that soap box.

If you think about it conservatives should logically be the first ones to want the government out of peoples private lives with their desire for minimal bureaucracy.

I remember in the early 90s when the US prison population was just edging up to one million, today its over two million. Thats two million felons learning to be better felons while incarcerated, sort of a college for criminals. When and if the prisoners of the drug war are released, do you think its going to be easy for them to get a job and walk straight? Most go back to what they know, and many know that they can make a pretty good living selling drugs.

Building and filling prisons have become big business, and you can bet your ass all thoes invested in the business of prisons will fight tooth and nail to keep this dug war going.

[ghein]

Can't control it, so do away with the laws? Where do you stop that practice? Following that same logic, Rape is really just sex anyway. And murder? we all gotta go sometime.

Start enforcing the laws. Ever wonder why people rarely rob post offices? Stiff penalties.

Anybody who's ever met a pothead knows their crime is about as dangerous as jaywalking, yet you equate it to rape and murder. Riiiiiiight.

You know, Ann Arbor recently made jaywalking legal as long as you're not impeding traffic. Oh no! They're not enforcing the law! Legalized rape and murder is sure to follow! Avoid A2 at any cost!

[rb336]

My question is this: if those drugs were legalized, would something stronger come out and continue to fuel the drug war? New drugs come out all the time.

If pot were available legally, and if other drugs were decriminalized [[treat it for what it is, a health problem) there would be little incentive for the other designer drugs. they will be around, yes, but the impact would be minimal. most people I know who tried "harder" drugs did so because they could get them easier than pot or booze.

virtually ALL the bad crime that goes with drugs is a result of their illegal standing rather than the drug use itself

[thecarl]

what drugs would be legalized? marijuana, cocaine, mushrooms, pcp, lsd, ecstasy, heroin? do we have examples of countries where use of these drugs is legal, and this is regarded as a healthy practice - with no concerns over personal and public safety, or productivity? tobacco and alcohol are legal in the united states, and have a tremendous impact on people's health, productivity, and public safety.

[Sstashmoo]

Think this country needs another legal drug? I don't.

Like our society isn't screwed up enough as it is. The last thing we need is another enabling avenue for good men to become lazy-boy slouching zombies. Divorce rates are through the roof. You can handle your drugs you say? Good for you, the reality is, the majority of the people cannot.

We need stiffer laws and enforcement.

You want legal drugs? Find a country that has them and move there. I don't want legalized pot, I'm a US citizen I have a say in it.

I know people that smoke dope like cigarettes, all day long. There would be many doing this.

[Bigb23]

But you are correct, folks will dream up new ways to get blurry. It is the human condition. For some reason we like blurry.

There was a documentary about 20 years ago about fruit trees in Africa, where the fruit would ferment and produce alcohol only after they hit the ground. All the local animals, including tree climbers and giraffes, would wait patiently until the fallen rotting fruit had produced alcohol, to party. Funny video on drunken animals, but it shows that this behavior goes beyond mere humans.

[Crumbled_pavement]

If we pass laws against fully-automatic weapons, then it won't be long before we pass laws on all weapons, and then we will begin to restrict other rights, and finally we will end up living in a communist state. Thus, we should not ban fully-automatic weapons.

I don't think that was what Sstashmoo was saying at all. I think he was attacking the logic that says if you can't stop someone from doing something then quit trying to stop them. If we follow that logic in regards to rape and murder then we see that it should be legalized too. Of course, that's crazy talk. To me, legalizing drugs is crazy talk as well - especially when we're talking about meth, crack, heroin, and other hard drugs. Marajuana should stay illegal as well, but enforcement should be minimal. Like driving 5 miles over the speed limit is illegal, yet most police officers won't even bother to pull someone over for that. We also need a different way of tackling the drug issues in this country. Too often we attribute the failure of a system to idea of the system itself and not how the system was implemented. The drug war may not be failing because we dare to fight a war on drugs, it may be failing because of how we choose to fight the war on drugs.

[Gistok]

I know that the Netherlands has decriminalized Marijuana [[and hashish, a different form of the same drug). They actually have what are called "hash bars" in Amsterdam.

I think other drugs have been decriminalized, but don't know the specifics. Nor do I know the results of the decriminalization, nor the effect it has had on crime, or on the population in general [[overweight people with the "munchies" .... etc...).

One would think that American law enforcement would look at the Netherlands, and study the results.

But I do believe that law enforcement is not interested in studying this, because it would affect their funding... and has any government agency EVER come out and said we don't need as much funding or resources?

[Jerome10]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/...ization.drugs/

I agree completely. Do you know how many people are killed in the US over illegal drugs? Look at the D! Tax it, control its quality, use the money to help people who get addicted, allow people a legal means for complaint. It all makes too much sense. The money and drop in murders I'm willing to bet would be staggering.

The fact is people who wanna do drugs do drugs. I've never even smoked pot in my life and yet I think everything should be made legal, with of course the proper stipulations on driving, operating equipment etc. Hell, why not "drug parks" where everyone who does it can go hang out. Nobody gets out until they're sober, plus it should be an easy location and way to offer them help, rehab, etc. They have to attend a course on the addictive properties, learn its effects, etc before they sign the paper they still want to buy and consume.

This is just insane. The amounts of money spent to not get anywhere. Whats the harm in at least trying it? Sure a few more people will get addicted, but I see fewer people dying due to drug violence than the increase in drug deaths from OD. What we're doing now isn't working. Lets at least see what happens.

As an aside, can a city or state make their own rules on this stuff or are they limited because it is federally illegal? Could Detroit attempt this or not?

I'll go the same route for prostitution. Tax it. Control it. Get the ladies health care and checkups. Dudes get hookers. Might as well make it as safe as possible.

[irish_mafia]

"Conservatives George Soros...", Django, what the hell have you been smokin?

That's like saying, "liberal commentator Rush Limbaugh...."

[Django]

All the money spent on enforcement, court costs, lawyers, prisons etc. etc. etc. should be used more productively such as anti drug education, rehabilitation, cures for addiction, etc. etc. etc.

Their is a big difference between someone raping someone else and someone ruining themselves with drugs. As long as an addict isn't hurting anyone else I say let them have at it while giving them the resources they need to clean themselves up. Its a hell of a lot cheaper than just locking them up at over $50,000 a year.

More ppl are killed every year over drugs than by drugs by far, all because their illegal. Many times the ppl who do die from drugs did so because they were unregulated [[remember all the fentynal deaths a couple of years back) A good friend of mine has a grandson who is now a vegetable because he bought some unregulated street dope.

I hate to bring up prohibition again but its such a no brainer that it does not work.
What you said Sstash "You can handle your drugs you say? Good for you, the reality is, the majority of the people cannot" is just not true. Of all the ppl I know, a majority of them have at least used cocaine, marijuana, LSD, etc at one time or another, some use harder drugs occasionally still, but I only know a handful of addicts. The addictive brain is not all that common. Of course in the D your going to see the worst of it but for the most part ppl can control themselves.

Addiction is a terrible disease, and thats what it is, a disease. I dont want to see anyone start using any drug, including booze and smokes but thats not going to happen. Ppl like to get blurry [[I like that Gnome) from the time their born. Ever as a kid spin in circles until you almost barfed? Ppl like to alter their consciousness, its just human nature, your not going to stop it. Harm reduction should be the goal, and keeping drugs illegal is not headed anywhere near that direction.

Sorry for rambling.

[Django]

My bad Irish_Mafia, I got Soros name mixed up with someone else, I cant think of it right now. Soros was big into drug law reform though.

[irish_mafia]

I knew it had to be a misnomer Django. Although, you are right that some conservatives have advocated the legalization of drugs. Of course, those guys are nuts!

[Sstashmoo]

Quote "The addictive brain is not all that common."

I've never met anyone who smoked cigarettes for a long period and did not get addicted to them. I have met people that have drank for years and quit no problem. And I've buried a few good friends from drinking, and seen many lives destroyed because of it. They say pot is not addictive, the people that I know say it is. It's psychological [[allegedly), but still dependent. Hell, anything can be addictive.

[Bigb23]

Quote "The addictive brain is not all that common."

I've never met anyone who smoked cigarettes for a long period and did not get addicted to them. I have met people that have drank for years and quit no problem. And I've buried a few good friends from drinking, and seen many lives destroyed because of it. They say pot is not addictive, the people that I know say it is. It's psychological [[allegedly), but still dependent. Hell, anything can be addictive.

At my age, 54, I was somewhat in the "middle" of the emergence of drugs. I spanned the country before military service, and tried A LOT of things. I stopped back in the mid - eighties of any illegal substances. [[Although I partake a few tokes a year, of Gange with my neighbors). I can walk next door, or across the street and find some smoke. Let's stop the enabling of Federal Agency's first.

Hell, anything can be addictive.

So let's ban ANYTHING.

[Gistok]

Quote "The addictive brain is not all that common."

I've never met anyone who smoked cigarettes for a long period and did not get addicted to them. I have met people that have drank for years and quit no problem. And I've buried a few good friends from drinking, and seen many lives destroyed because of it. They say pot is not addictive, the people that I know say it is. It's psychological [[allegedly), but still dependent. Hell, anything can be addictive.

That's true... anything can be addictive to some people. cigarettes, gambling, drugs

But aren't somethings chemical dependencies [[such as cigarettes or heroin) while other things are mental dependencies.such as gambling and alcohol?

Or is one considered a dependency and the other a compulsion...

Hell I know of an ex-marine in Texas who's addicted to LEGO... he owns over 8,000 sets, and has over 30 copies of some sets... who would have thought that something as benign as a toy could be an addiction [[but wait... there's Beanie Baby collectors ).

[alleydad]

absolutely legalize and then do what the government does best, slap a big tax on it, and federal deficits will be something talked about in past tense. And stop wasting our police, courts, and taxpayers money stopping people from smoking their pot.

[Django]

Gistock, did he pawn his truck for more legos?