The skinny on healthcare, who is lying?

**Sstashmoo** · October-12-09, 01:50 PM

I keep hearing and reading so many conflicting reports, the video below would have you believe if we get socialized medicine that we'll all be living in the hospital parking lot, thrown out of the bingo club, hooked on heroin or something equally unpleasant. I talk to Canadians who seem to be quite happy with their system, and our media paints a totally different picture. The Canadians I've talked to say the reports we're seeing are not true or taken out of context. Would like to read some supporting arguments yay or nay on the subject.

In the attached video they say the Obama plan will kill future medical breakthrough. One only needs to look at our military, has that killed private research and development? Hello, you can sell your developments to the government. They mention ridiculously long waits for care, this is the area of stark contrast in reports. Well?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9GMKK_fWKg

**rb336** · October-12-09, 02:58 PM

I think you are on the right track by asking people you know. See on which side the distortions fall, then make up your own mind. I wouldn't trust anyone's answer here [[including mine) without verifying from solid, original sources

ccbatson · October-12-09, 03:37 PM

Liberals in congress will not even allow fellow liberals to see the full bill before demanding that it be voted on. Who do you think is lying or hiding something?

ccbatson · October-12-09, 03:39 PM

Here is a really good additional question...WHO IS WRITING THE LEGISLATION? Not who puts their name on it, who actually writes it...thousands of pages in record time, Conyers admits that he [[and no congress person he knows) could read or understand it let alone write it.

**rb336** · October-12-09, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

Liberals in congress will not even allow fellow liberals to see the full bill before demanding that it be voted on. Who do you think is lying or hiding something?

ok, lie #1 is above

there are several versions of bills, no "full bill" has been introduced, bills are available, not only to congress, but to the public via Thomas before they are voted on, and not one person has demanded that any bill be voted on site-unseen. I mean that is just an absolutely absurd load of pure unadulterated bovine fecal matter

**rb336** · October-12-09, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

Here is a really good additional question...WHO IS WRITING THE LEGISLATION? Not who puts their name on it, who actually writes it...thousands of pages in record time, Conyers admits that he [[and no congress person he knows) could read or understand it let alone write it.

where did john say that?

this is possibly lie #2, since I doubt Conyers said that, he may have said something similar with an entirely different context. If Bats can't back this with the actual quote in full context, it is lie # 2

ccbatson · October-12-09, 03:50 PM

And the lack of a cohesive bill coupled with a rush to vote prior to it's developement is NOT intentional deception by the libs? Can't figure out how to upload the Bill again?

Conyers said that it was impossible to read the 1000 page HR3200 in 2 days without 2 lawyers to read it and explain it.

**rb336** · October-12-09, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

And the lack of a cohesive bill coupled with a rush to vote prior to it's developement is NOT intentional deception by the libs? Can't figure out how to upload the Bill again?

Conyers said that it was impossible to read the 1000 page HR3200 in 2 days without 2 lawyers to read it and explain it.

ok, lies 3 and 4, although 4 is just a repetition of 2. then again, the right believes if you repeat a lie often enough loudly enough, it will become true.

ccbatson · October-12-09, 03:55 PM

No need to bother explaining why you [[wrongly) think they are lies Rb.

Maybe you define the word "lie" differently...you know, as you define the word "growth" in reference to an economy in an oddly paradoxic fashion.

**jiminnm** · October-12-09, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

where did john say that?

this is possibly lie #2, since I doubt Conyers said that, he may have said something similar with an entirely different context. If Bats can't back this with the actual quote in full context, it is lie # 2

Actually, rb, the Dems quashed a request to make any Senate bill available for 72 hours before a vote. I interpret this to mean that there may no written legislation prior to a vote, and tha the final bill may or may not resemble what was voted on.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...HW-ywD9AT460O0

The Conyers' comment on HR 3200 was widely reported, even the networks carried it. Here is one column about it:
http://www.sfexaminer.com/opinion/co...-53741527.html
If he can't read, or understand, the bills presented, then he should resign because he is not representing his constituents. If time is an issue, then there should be ample time avaiable for all, including you and I, to review the bill.

Lorax · October-12-09, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

Here is a really good additional question...WHO IS WRITING THE LEGISLATION? Not who puts their name on it, who actually writes it...thousands of pages in record time, Conyers admits that he [[and no congress person he knows) could read or understand it let alone write it.

I'll tell you who's writing the legislation- Max Baucus- the biggest beneficiary of campaign donations by Big Insurance. So big insurance is writing the legislation. Why do you think they are spending 1.5 million per DAY to defeat the public option?

This is a political food fight with monstrous wealth interests, i.e. big insurance pitted against the American people. They are fighting now over who gets to divide the pie of new sign-ups to either a mandatory insurance option, or a public option.

That's it.

And if they don't get what they are lobbying for, they will blow this bill up, and there will be no health care reform, period.

Corporate fascism at work, look and learn.

**Detroitej72** · October-12-09, 07:34 PM

The skinny on healthcare, who is lying?

Conservatives are lying about death panels killing grandma, Sara Palin's baby and in claiming that Canada and many European's dislike their socialized health care. Most Europeans and Canadians I know and have talked to can't believe the lies about the supposed failiers of their state run plans. And they can't understand why Americans are scared of any single payer system.

**jerrytimes** · October-12-09, 08:55 PM

I believe that both sides are lying, but I have a feeling that the Dems are lying just a bit more. If they aren't why won't they release the bill for the public to see. Put it online, give the American people a few weeks to read it [[it is long) and then see what people have to say.

**Sstashmoo** · October-12-09, 08:58 PM

Quote: "And if they don't get what they are lobbying for, they will blow this bill up, and there will be no health care reform, period."

Lorax, Probably your best post ever.

There really is something afoot as the wolves prowl with this whole healthcare issue. People are parroting seemingly utter nonsense. Some righties I know are just inside out about it. Screaming about illegals in waiting rooms ahead of their child etc etc. I think a lot of the fuel their pouring on this fire is race and social class. They will not feel as empowered if they have to "get on the list". especially behind someone they feel is inferior. That is the real button Rush and Beck are pushing till they hose the drive. Righties seem to want their employer to pay for their bigotry and selfishness.

Possibly the Government under Obama is trying to do something good for a change. Maybe people just don't believe it. Too good to be true. We've been taught to not trust that.

**jerrytimes** · October-12-09, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitej72

The skinny on healthcare, who is lying?

Conservatives are lying about death panels killing grandma, Sara Palin's baby and in claiming that Canada and many European's dislike their socialized health care. Most Europeans and Canadians I know and have talked to can't believe the lies about the supposed failiers of their state run plans. And they can't understand why Americans are scared of any single payer system.

In all honesty, I know a couple of people that live in Canada that work here in Michigan, and both of them have health care plans in the USA. One of them even told me that if he needed treatment he would come over the border for it if it was possible for him to do so. The talk about waiting for care in Canada isn't a lie from what I've heard from them either.

For the record, I do believe that our country needs this, but I strongly believe that it's being rushed and that time is needed to make it right. Our country has never had anything like this and we've survived so far. Take a good year or two to put all the thought necessary into it to make it not fail.

Lorax · October-12-09, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "And if they don't get what they are lobbying for, they will blow this bill up, and there will be no health care reform, period."

Lorax, Probably your best post ever.

There really is something afoot as the wolves prowl with this whole healthcare issue. People are parroting seemingly utter nonsense. Some righties I know are just inside out about it. Screaming about illegals in waiting rooms ahead of their child etc etc. I think a lot of the fuel their pouring on this fire is race and social class. They will not feel as empowered if they have to "get on the list". especially behind someone they feel is inferior. That is the real button Rush and Beck are pushing till they hose the drive. Righties seem to want their employer to pay for their bigotry and selfishness.

Possibly the Government under Obama is trying to do something good for a change. Maybe people just don't believe it. Too good to be true. We've been taught to not trust that.

Well, thank you.

It's always been my position as far as health care is concerned, and unfortunately lobbying monies know no political boundaries. Baucus is a Democrat, and awash in lobbying money like no other. His bill is a give-in to big insurance, and though it's been amended during "write up" time, it's still woefully inadequate as to the nation's needs and desires.

61% of the public in latest polling wants a public option. Washington is again, behind the curve in what the nation wants, as it is on "don't ask, don't tell" and the "defense of marriage act"- both of which need to be repealed.

The noisy minority needs to be sidelined, since they don't represent the majority of Americans- not that they can't be heard, but their opinions have only minimal weight when nothing constructive is brought to the table. "Death panels" and kicking granny to the curb is rhetoric that can't be tolerated.

ziggyselbin · October-12-09, 11:05 PM

I got news for you all........it's all a scam. The insurance co's run things. Cbats is a physician. If he/she does not admit to spending a lot of time on the phone battling with insurance co's then I question whether he/she is really a doc.

I recently lost someone close. This person was wealthy with the best insurance. This person was well connected and knew influential people. Some of these influential people were at the hospital where this person died....are you all with me?

Here is the point. The care is for shit. The docs are constantly being harassed by the insurance co's to discharge obviously very sick people. How fucking dumb do the insurance co's believe us to be? I am not describing a unique scenario. This is how things are. You look at someone they look horrible yet the hospital/ insurance co are pushing you out the door, to your house or a nursing home..anywhere but the hospital.

So remember arguing with Bats et,al is a small part of this.......don't get too sick or you all might find out how crappy the care is.

Stosh · October-12-09, 11:50 PM

This latest move by the insurance fools will drive a public option.

**Diehard** · October-12-09, 11:52 PM

Who's lying?
Anyone with a major financial or political interest in the outcome, that's who.

**rb336** · October-13-09, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by jiminnm

Actually, rb, the Dems quashed a request to make any Senate bill available for 72 hours before a vote. I interpret this to mean that there may no written legislation prior to a vote, and tha the final bill may or may not resemble what was voted on.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...HW-ywD9AT460O0

that is not the same thing -- that was releasing before the committee voted. the committee members already have it, the rest of the world would see it three days before the committee votes on it, which is well before the Senate as a whole votes on it. those things are tweeked time and time again before the committee votes on them, and I'd rather not get the non-voted on version out and confusing issues with the people

The Conyers' comment on HR 3200 was widely reported, even the networks carried it. Here is one column about it:
http://www.sfexaminer.com/opinion/co...-53741527.html
If he can't read, or understand, the bills presented, then he should resign because he is not representing his constituents. If time is an issue, then there should be ample time avaiable for all, including you and I, to review the bill.

"widely reported" is a lot different from "true" you have an article by the right-wing media's token, but when I enter the phrase into google, I find nothing but page after page of right-wing blogosphere citations. even if true -- he was saying more about the convoluted language in the bill than anything else, that you need two days with lawyers to unravel the wording

**rb336** · October-13-09, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

No need to bother explaining why you [[wrongly) think they are lies Rb.

Maybe you define the word "lie" differently...you know, as you define the word "growth" in reference to an economy in an oddly paradoxic fashion.

i take this as a concession that you can't back up word one of what you say with facts.

**sturge** · October-13-09, 11:02 AM

"What is the message here? Survive cancer but then go drop dead because we can't make any money off you anymore?" Leslie Elder asked. "[The insurance companies] figure, 'You're useless. Get lost.' "

"I don't think I could bear to listen to those words again. ... 'You have cancer,' " Elder said. "I've said to my husband, if I start to get sick, just set me up with a nice pill cocktail on a beach, because nobody cares. That's the message you hear every day from insurance companies."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/10/13...ces/index.html

This is what people like CC want.

**Papasito** · October-13-09, 11:30 AM

Latest estimates put government health insurance at $4000 @ year for a family of four. You take it or get fined.

I don't know about you guys but $4000 is pretty freaking hard to pay when there's no jobs out there!!!

**rb336** · October-13-09, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Papasito

Latest estimates put government health insurance at $4000 @ year for a family of four. You take it or get fined.

I don't know about you guys but $4000 is pretty freaking hard to pay when there's no jobs out there!!!

estimates from whom? if you can't afford it, there will be assistance

**ghettopalmetto** · October-13-09, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Papasito

Latest estimates put government health insurance at $4000 @ year for a family of four. You take it or get fined.

I don't know about you guys but $4000 is pretty freaking hard to pay when there's no jobs out there!!!

That's cheaper than the $12,000/year family plan currently provided by my employer.

Yeah, you're right. Better we sit on our asses and do nothing.