Great American Streetcar Scandal

**buildingsofdetroit** · October-03-09, 06:35 PM

Maybe this was discussed on here long before, but I'd never heard of this. Sounds similar to the automakers' killing Detroit's plans for a subway system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_A...eetcar_scandal

**stasu1213** · October-03-09, 08:35 PM

I had been saying this for the longest but people such as Michrep said that I was some type of kook. Now you see the reason why we have more strip malls in Detroit built instead of stores that are built up to the sidewalks and the parking lot behind them. It is to discourage pedestrial traffic and more car traffic

ziggyselbin · October-03-09, 08:55 PM

It is a bullshit myth

http://www.lava.net/cslater/TQOrigin.pdf

**DetroitPlanner** · October-03-09, 09:54 PM

Ziggy how dare you distort lies with facts!

Some folks think that if we have streetcars we could return to the Detroit of 60 years ago. Most cities these days DO NOT have streetcars and many are extremely successful. Every city that still has street cars are not like they were 60 years ago either. The folks that think we can return to Detroit of 60 years ago are not bus dependant and probably never rode one. If they did, they would know that a the bus and the street car are pretty much the same type of conveyance.

Street cars themselves will not do jack to reduce strip malls. To reduce strip malls you need to increase the value of the land, making each parking spot added to greatly increase the cost of the development. This can be done first through proper management of land by both the market forces and the local government.

A couple of months ago I visted my sister who moved to a part of Orange County California which looked a lot like Canton, but more hilly. I thought I was going to hate it there. Yhey have super wide streets with landscaped medians and strip malls everywhere. However, the streets are wide because they have sidewalks, bike-lanes and bus turn outs. The Strip malls were well landscaped [[making even our better commecial areas like Ann Arbor, Troy and Bloomfield Hills look shabby). All the buildings in the strip malls were pulled forward to service the pedestrians and those using the bus, but they still had parking available. Pathways connected the strip malls to the neighborhoods and offices nearby. I was expecting to hate it, but I ended up loving it.

The point I am trying to make here is that we have learned to settle for the lowest common denomenator. This is why our transit system is lacking, our strip malls are poorly designed and landscaped and only function for cars; and we are a dying City.

We should strive to make every development like Campus Martius, the Riverwalk, preserving places like Eastern Market. Until then, we are just pissing in our own well.

What can you do? Instead of bitching about planners attend commission meetings and make your voices heard. Planners in most places are only as good as the public that support them. Planners work for elected officials, planners execute, they do not make decisions. They can suggest things however these are often over ruled because they cost too much, or that it would be a hardship on a business.

**professorscott** · October-04-09, 12:02 AM

Detroitplanner, I will comment on your post, from my position as Vice Chair of a community Planning Commission.

Most members of a city or township Planning Commission are volunteers, people in the community who are interested in these things, not professionals. Most of us rely on the professionals our communities hire, who advise us on all the technical issues.

I think if we are ever going to have a successful region at all, one thing we have to do is send our professional planners back to school. Many of them think it is still 1956, and that transit is a waste of time, and pedestrians do not exist, and that the best type of development is the building hundreds of feet from the road so we can fit in a massive fucking parking lot to store thousands of cars.

All of the successful large urban areas everywhere in the world have effective mass transit, and there no exceptions to this anywhere. If I'm wrong, offer a suggestion for a large urban area that will prove I'm wrong! Transit is not the whole solution, but a lack of it is absolutely preventing us from solving anything. It is a gaping wound, and without fixing it we will never come close to being whole.

But our planners don't know this or care about it. They love cars, parking lots and setbacks.

**stasu1213** · October-04-09, 12:43 AM

The cars had spoiled many planners and michigan residents

**detourdetroit** · October-04-09, 12:48 AM

The professional credential for planners is the AICP - "ANY IDIOT CAN PLAN". I spent several years as a planner and grew despondent. The nexus of planning and politics is a sad state of affairs in america. planners, like architects need to figure out a way to stand up together to fight mightily against the lowest common denominator, which is so often political expediency of the moment couched as the greater good of community.

I think there are a lot of good planners out there who would, under different circumstances, advocate for the right thing. Problem is, they are hamstrung by stupefying suburban zoning resolutions based on 50s and 60s Euclidian principles and the faulty expectations of politicians and citizenry who have been sold a bill of goods by "development interests" that want to turn a quick buck by building the next strip mall, lifestyle center or subdivision. Wake up my brothers and sisters!!!

Planners of the new urbanist era should be held up as petit messiahs!!!

...words from a fallen planner

**sumas** · October-04-09, 06:47 AM

In the last few days I have been cleaning out my files and home office papers. I was amazed at how many focus groups I have been a part of. I had tons of beautiful brochures with drawing and plans that expressed the community wants, paid for with tax dollars. I tossed it all. Too depressing.

One group I volunteered for has now commissioned 7 streetscape plans over the last 25 years. The plans don't vary much. They are just a series of costly renderings mostly done by Hamilton Anderson & Associates. Who, by the way, does most of the city commissioned work. Since most cities have a pay to play mentality, I'd like to know the price tag on that association!

Guess what, after all the money spent we see no changes that affect the quality of life for citizens. We do however have two fast food places and a standard strip mall. These were all developments the residents opposed. Against our wishes, historic buildings in renovatable shape were destroyed to make way for these "improvements".

To bring this back to topic, the historic business community was designed to efficiently service walking traffic & streetcars [[later buses). The city little by little whittles away this slice of history. It is giving way to fast food, strip malls and parking lots.

Here is the joke. As residents, over and over, we hear about jobs and new tax base. The core of the joke is that these businesses get tax abatements and then walk when the bill comes due.

**stasu1213** · October-04-09, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by sumas

In the last few days I have been cleaning out my files and home office papers. I was amazed at how many focus groups I have been a part of. I had tons of beautiful brochures with drawing and plans that expressed the community wants, paid for with tax dollars. I tossed it all. Too depressing.

One group I volunteered for has now commissioned 7 streetscape plans over the last 25 years. The plans don't vary much. They are just a series of costly renderings mostly done by Hamilton Anderson & Associates. Who, by the way, does most of the city commissioned work. Since most cities have a pay to play mentality, I'd like to know the price tag on that association!

Guess what, after all the money spent we see no changes that affect the quality of life for citizens. We do however have two fast food places and a standard strip mall. These were all developments the residents opposed. Against our wishes, historic buildings in renovatable shape were destroyed to make way for these "improvements".

To bring this back to topic, the historic business community was designed to efficiently service walking traffic & streetcars [[later buses). The city little by little whittles away this slice of history. It is giving way to fast food, strip malls and parking lots.

Here is the joke. As residents, over and over, we hear about jobs and new tax base. The core of the joke is that these businesses get tax abatements and then walk when the bill comes due.

Fast foods, strip malls, and parking lots? That is why Detroiters are lazy since they drive more than walk [[parking lots and strip malls) and are the fattist people in the country[[fast foods). You see how GM's plans still have a grip on detroit. If GMC had made buses you could see why they used to be so unreliable. The busses often broke down. All of this just to get Detroiters and the surrounding areas to invest in automobiles. Come on.... Detroit labled "THE MOTOR CITY' In GM's mind they city has to represent. Someone had mentioned about a city where the buildings in the strip mall are pushed up to the front and the parking lot in the back. That is the way detroit, highland park, and other parts of the city had squashed most of the urban plans and ideas. The leaders had been getting their hand's greased by companies that has something to do the the automobile or anything that uses tires and gas.

**detourdetroit** · October-04-09, 09:32 AM

Streetcars have motors too.

**DetroitPlanner** · October-04-09, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

Detroitplanner, I will comment on your post, from my position as Vice Chair of a community Planning Commission.

Most members of a city or township Planning Commission are volunteers, people in the community who are interested in these things, not professionals. Most of us rely on the professionals our communities hire, who advise us on all the technical issues.

I think if we are ever going to have a successful region at all, one thing we have to do is send our professional planners back to school. Many of them think it is still 1956, and that transit is a waste of time, and pedestrians do not exist, and that the best type of development is the building hundreds of feet from the road so we can fit in a massive fucking parking lot to store thousands of cars.

All of the successful large urban areas everywhere in the world have effective mass transit, and there no exceptions to this anywhere. If I'm wrong, offer a suggestion for a large urban area that will prove I'm wrong! Transit is not the whole solution, but a lack of it is absolutely preventing us from solving anything. It is a gaping wound, and without fixing it we will never come close to being whole.

But our planners don't know this or care about it. They love cars, parking lots and setbacks.

I totally agree with you. If your planners think that way, you must live in some rural backwater. Heck even places like West Branch Michigan have embraced solid planning priciples.

Back to the topic, Transit needs to be well thought out. There are reasons why streetcars do not exist any longer. There are reasons why in some places where it exists it is wildly successful like there are reasons why it exists in other areas it is poorly used. Investing in streetcars or wishing they were still around will not solve all of our problems. People will still drive a mile to get to the 7-11 that could be only 750 feet from thier home because we are orientated for the car. Planning commissioners are appointed by politicians and serve at their pleasure. If a commissioner or a professional planner causes friction, they are gone. Its frustrating because as you said many folks who serve on commissions are interested, but they each may serve a different interest, one may want to be flexible to increase tax revenue, another may want to preserve farmland, and the other may want transit orientated design. These folks are not on the same page and send confusing signals to the professional staff. Heaven help us if your professional staff has no backbone, no training, no sense of what is good planning as opposed to bad. I am amazed for example the number of planners who do not take the time to absorb or to notice good surroundings, look at you odd when you get excited over trips to National Parks or notice where good planning helps create communities, and think nothing of their dreary existance of driving from one uninspired big box to another.

I'd agree that these folks need to get out and see the world. They need to learn something. Unfortunately they don't get paid to learn. They get paid to do what their bosses tell them to do. Most schools do not teach planning in a comprehensive fashion. The best thing is to explore the world with the eyes of a child. Kids know a bus is fun, they like to walk on pedestrian filled streets. Unfortunately, its the adults that drive from one end of the mega-strip mall to the other to buy a corn-syrup enriched beverage that they learn habits from, and many of today's planners [[and commissioners) grew up under those environs.

Streetcars need to make economic sense. Where they do, they are extremely successful. Here where transit is chronically underfunded we can't afford another DPM. The modern streetcar was only around for a short time, about 50 years before it was replaced by buses. In many ways it was our first sprawl machine, way before cars were affordable en masse. Prior to modern streetcars we had horse drawn buses on muddy roads that were covered with well what horses do. Modern streetcars were an improvement. Buses were seen as an improvement. Cars were seen as an improvement. Each had different limitations and impacts on land use.

We are doomed. Screw it, I'm moving to West Branch with the hillbillies. At least they understand access management and have enough transit service to get kids to school and seniors to medical appointments. Apathy is killing us. Many don't even know the difference. We piss in our own wells then bitch about it.

ziggyselbin · October-04-09, 12:16 PM

The agenda rears it's ugly head once again. What is the agenda? Cars are evil, cars are bad. Cars make people fat and lazy......bla bla bla.

Reasonable people know that cars are here to stay. Cars get may people around very conveniently all over the world.......mass transit. Reasonable people also know that mass transit i.e. busses, trains, subways, high speed rail are also convenient and necessary.

It is the agenda driven people that are clueless and transparent. Cars are here to stay; thankfully. Cars don't make people lazy. Not exercising or cleaning the yard or walking the dog might make people lazy. There are certainly many parks and trails and gyms and fitness clubs that people can utilize. So I ain buying the idea that cars are somehow inherently bad. It seems especially wrong in Detroit where the auto industry is responsible for much of the middle class life enjoyed all over the country.

Trainman · October-04-09, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by ziggyselbin

The agenda rears it's ugly head once again. What is the agenda? Cars are evil, cars are bad. Cars make people fat and lazy......bla bla bla.

Reasonable people know that cars are here to stay. Cars get may people around very conveniently all over the world.......mass transit. Reasonable people also know that mass transit i.e. busses, trains, subways, high speed rail are also convenient and necessary.

It is the agenda driven people that are clueless and transparent. Cars are here to stay; thankfully. Cars don't make people lazy. Not exercising or cleaning the yard or walking the dog might make people lazy. There are certainly many parks and trails and gyms and fitness clubs that people can utilize. So I ain buying the idea that cars are somehow inherently bad. It seems especially wrong in Detroit where the auto industry is responsible for much of the middle class life enjoyed all over the country.

Prominent transit tax supporters want a one half per cent NEW county wide sales tax by a change in the state constitution to pay for trolleys on Woodward Avenue and a merged or joined SMART and DDOT and also the Detroit and Ann Arbor commuter rail for a regional wide mass transit system.

The theory behind this is that those who buy fast food at McDonalds, and Burger King in big red Lincoln Navigators and other similar gas hogs can afford to pay a little extra money at the drive up window and also tourists would pay as opposed to the property owners who are on a fixed or low income.

I do not agree with the elimination of the state tax on fuel for existing public bus service for SMART and DDOT which is about $90 Million per year to be replaced with property or sales taxes.

But, that is exactly what happened when SMART left the city of Livonia in November 2006 The large buses were paid for by fuel taxes but no more unless the voters demand that the funding from this tax is restored.

**stasu1213** · October-04-09, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by ziggyselbin

The agenda rears it's ugly head once again. What is the agenda? Cars are evil, cars are bad. Cars make people fat and lazy......bla bla bla.

Reasonable people know that cars are here to stay. Cars get may people around very conveniently all over the world.......mass transit. Reasonable people also know that mass transit i.e. busses, trains, subways, high speed rail are also convenient and necessary.

It is the agenda driven people that are clueless and transparent. Cars are here to stay; thankfully. Cars don't make people lazy. Not exercising or cleaning the yard or walking the dog might make people lazy. There are certainly many parks and trails and gyms and fitness clubs that people can utilize. So I ain buying the idea that cars are somehow inherently bad. It seems especially wrong in Detroit where the auto industry is responsible for much of the middle class life enjoyed all over the country.

No one is saying cars are evil. The manipulation of people to depend on cars is evil. That manipulation is done by moving good supermarkets out of detroit and not forcing the markets left in the city to clean up and sell better products. Closing schools so the kids have to catch a slow crowded bus or are DRIVEN BY CAR to a school that is far from home. To cut busses making it an inconvenience to riders who have to get to work, church, or other places. Making new strip malls where a pedestrian has to walk across an empty parking lot to get to the store that should had been at the sidewalk. Need I go on?

ziggyselbin · October-04-09, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

No one is saying cars are evil. The manipulation of people to depend on cars is evil. That manipulation is done by moving good supermarkets out of detroit and not forcing the markets left in the city to clean up and sell better products. Closing schools so the kids have to catch a slow crowded bus or are DRIVEN BY CAR to a school that is far from home. To cut busses making it an inconvenience to riders who have to get to work, church, or other places. Making new strip malls where a pedestrian has to walk across an empty parking lot to get to the store that should had been at the sidewalk. Need I go on?

If one buys the premise they are being manipulated then you have a point. I don't buy it one bit. People want space and privacy and they left city life to have that. I don't say one way of life is better than another; it is nice to have a choice.

Btw good stores grocery or otherwise left because of safety and theft, not to manipulate unwitting citizens.

Schools are closing because enrollment continues to shrink and the school system is broke.

I am sympathetic to the elimination of bus service_ again no money.

**stasu1213** · October-05-09, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by ziggyselbin

If one buys the premise they are being manipulated then you have a point. I don't buy it one bit. People want space and privacy and they left city life to have that. I don't say one way of life is better than another; it is nice to have a choice.

Btw good stores grocery or otherwise left because of safety and theft, not to manipulate unwitting citizens.

Schools are closing because enrollment continues to shrink and the school system is broke.

I am sympathetic to the elimination of bus service_ again no money.

Some of the public schools were closed earlier in the decade for the so-called reason of low test-scores and inadequate teachers and principals not lack of students. Books sitting in warehouses while Womack and others on the board could not give an answer. That causes parents to pull their children out of the public schools which resulted in low enrollment. It is called Cause and Effect. As well as space and privacy Grosses Point, Royal Oak, Birmingham, etc has more stores that are accessable by pedestrians to go into from the sidewalks rather than walking across a big parking lot where they don't have a car to park in. The people in those community had made sure they everything were easy acess where the residents could leave there cars at home and walk to it. Detroit, in the past 20yrs wasn't designed like that. Read what I just written and you and others could see theMANIPULATION that was done to move residents out of detroit for the so CHOICES that weren't provided to them.

ziggyselbin · October-05-09, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

Some of the public schools were closed earlier in the decade for the so-called reason of low test-scores and inadequate teachers and principals not lack of students. Books sitting in warehouses while Womack and others on the board could not give an answer. That causes parents to pull their children out of the public schools which resulted in low enrollment. It is called Cause and Effect. As well as space and privacy Grosses Point, Royal Oak, Birmingham, etc has more stores that are accessable by pedestrians to go into from the sidewalks rather than walking across a big parking lot where they don't have a car to park in. The people in those community had made sure they everything were easy acess where the residents could leave there cars at home and walk to it. Detroit, in the past 20yrs wasn't designed like that. Read what I just written and you and others could see theMANIPULATION that was done to move residents out of detroit for the so CHOICES that weren't provided to them.

Then you should be upset with Detroit city planners, not cars or their makers. The citizens don't seem to care. I don't buy it as manipulation.

**cman710** · October-05-09, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by professorscott

All of the successful large urban areas everywhere in the world have effective mass transit, and there no exceptions to this anywhere. If I'm wrong, offer a suggestion for a large urban area that will prove I'm wrong! Transit is not the whole solution, but a lack of it is absolutely preventing us from solving anything. It is a gaping wound, and without fixing it we will never come close to being whole.

Professorscott, there are a number of examples that can be offered as examples of successful large urban areas that do not have significant mass transit.

Houston - Houston, the fourth largest city in the country, could be the paradigm for a city based on sprawl. You might point out that Houston has a bus system and a light-rail system. However, the light-rail does not move a significant number of passengers, especially considering where the light-rail system is within the city, and its limited scope. And the bus system also does not move a significant amount of people around the city, compared to the number who use cars for transportation. Though it has crime problems in certain areas, it would be hard to argue that Houston is not a successful urban area. [[It is another question whether this is sustainable in the long-term, but for now, Houston must be considered a successful urban area).

Los Angeles - While I am no expert on Los Angeles, the LA area is still highly, highly dependent on the automobile. LA does have a subway, but the subway does not move a substantial number of commuters around the city. I believe the same is true for the bus system. The raw numbers of riders may seem significant because of the size of the city, but in terms of the percentage of people who use mass transit, there is not a significant mass transit system. Though not without significant problems, LA has also been a pretty successful urban area for the past forty years.

Note that I am not trying to make a point that public transportation has little importance. On the contrary, I think public transportation is very important, both for development generally and especially for people who cannot afford a car. But I do think that we need to evaluate each urban area according to its needs. That being said, Detroit does have transportation needs that must be addressed.

**DetroitPlanner** · October-05-09, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by cman710

Professorscott, there are a number of examples that can be offered as examples of successful large urban areas that do not have significant mass transit.

Add Phoenix, Minneapolis/St. Paul [[one new line between the mall and downtown does not a complete 'mass transit' system make), Las Vegas has a monorail, but that was built mostly by the hotels.

Regardless of outliers, effective mass transit does provide a good backbone for business growth and development. Note that some cities have been extremely successful with Bus Rapid Transit, and I know that while that may not please the purists out there, it would be a step above where we currently are.

**sumas** · October-05-09, 05:29 PM

I live in Detroit and have several viable grocery stores within walking distance.

I am old enough to remember excellent bus service. We had a family car but busses were way more convenient back then. I owned my first car before I even had a drivers liscense but still took a bus to work from school. When bus service became erattic is when I became car dependant.

Remember when bus stops had cute little enclosed rest areas? They are now long gone. For a while there used to be at least a park bench for customer convenience. Long gone too!

**cman710** · October-05-09, 05:45 PM

Detroitplanner, Honolulu is an example of a city highly dependent on bus transportation. I am not current with developments there, but I know that some years ago the bus system was very highly regarded and constituted an important and effective mass transit system.

**stasu1213** · October-05-09, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by ziggyselbin

Then you should be upset with Detroit city planners, not cars or their makers. The citizens don't seem to care. I don't buy it as manipulation.

City planners who probably in the back pockets of the big 3 especially GM

ziggyselbin · October-05-09, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

City planners who probably in the back pockets of the big 3 especially GM

Bullshit. Your paranoid. There is simply zero evidence historically or otherwise never was never has been.

**DetroitPlanner** · October-05-09, 06:44 PM

Yeah the big 3 is paying me off. Thats why I have an 8 year old car! Can you show evidence of City Planners getting paid off by GM to purposely wreck transit?

ziggyselbin · October-05-09, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

Fast foods, strip malls, and parking lots? That is why Detroiters are lazy since they drive more than walk [[parking lots and strip malls) and are the fattist people in the country[[fast foods). You see how GM's plans still have a grip on detroit. If GMC had made buses you could see why they used to be so unreliable. The busses often broke down. All of this just to get Detroiters and the surrounding areas to invest in automobiles. Come on.... Detroit labled "THE MOTOR CITY' In GM's mind they city has to represent. Someone had mentioned about a city where the buildings in the strip mall are pushed up to the front and the parking lot in the back. That is the way detroit, highland park, and other parts of the city had squashed most of the urban plans and ideas. The leaders had been getting their hand's greased by companies that has something to do the the automobile or anything that uses tires and gas.

This is such bullshit. People are fat because they don't exercise and eat crappy foods. People were fat before the evil G.M. et,al conspired to make us all drive our cars everywhere all the time.

Why don't you read the link I provided instead of spewing this regurgitated bullshit about something that never happened.

Oh btw there are many parks and trails and state parks and recreation depts and county fitness facilities where people can go to become healthier........unless G.M.[[Whatever that is now)is conspiring to keep us all fat and drving.