Guinea massacre toll put at 157

[jams]

At least 157 people were killed when Guinean troops opened fire on opposition protesters on Monday, a human rights group says.
Earlier police said 87 people had died, but local activists say hospital sources confirmed a much higher toll.
Human rights groups say they have had reports of soldiers bayoneting people and women being stripped and raped in the streets during the protest.

more:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8280603.stm

Is our world doomed to madness?

[ZRX Doug]

"Is our world doomed to madness?"

Pretty much.

[Gannon]

A quick google gave me stories on the oil wealth aiding those at the top of the heap to create more excrement for those beneath them. This was the inevitable trajectory if those at the bottom dared stand up for themselves and fought the destruction of that which they consider valuable or sacred.


Why else would they stand for a bayonet and take it in?!



I turned the key to my car and drove this morning, from the traffic...I had accomplices alongside. I will have to drive again if I want to be in the comfort of my bed tonight. Within eyesight around me from this helpful keyboard, various forms of plastic abound...all oil-based...and as close as my fingertips. The very espresso six inches from my nose could only get to me this cheaply and freshly using a bunch of oil.



I am not responsible for the deaths, but I helped in some way to buy the bayonets.



No, I don't know what to make of this all. But I cannot speed read past it any longer.


Sincerely,
John

[elganned]

What is it about Africa? Liberia, Congo, Rwanda, Kenya, the sucking chest wound that is Somalia, now Guinea...is it something in the water? [[And no, I don't buy the whole "Legacy of Imperialism" arguement.)

[jams]

You bring up a valid point, if a nation's people were brutalized and not permitted to advance by foreign oppression, when they achieve "freedom" will they not continue the same patterns of oppression?

[Gannon]

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss." Pete Townshend, Rock 'n' Roll Prophet?

I've been on an old anthem kick lately, so forgive me.


As long as oil [[and presumably the CIA) are involved, you cannot assume anything about those who rise to power for any length of time other than they are approved to maintain the status quo flow.

[jams]

I am not responsible for the deaths, but I helped in some way to buy the bayonets.

So have we all.

[ccbatson]

Tyranny over individual liberty is at the heart of these atrocities...a lesson to be learned.

[ejames01]

Why would they people in power care about individual liberty?

Tyranny over individual liberty is at the heart of these atrocities...a lesson to be learned.

[ccbatson]

They care about opposing/killing it.

[ZRX Doug]

Why would they people in power care about individual liberty?

Because they do not STAY in power if their subjects have the freedom to speak and rise up. Dictators like to keep the proles well-controlled, man..

Gannon, if it makes you feel any better, the death is all on MY hands, man..fired up the 440 Dippy wagon today..nothing like the sound of around six hundred horsepower to make ya feel better 'bout all that blood for oil.
Eight miles per gallon, babycakes..bring on the 110 octane Turbo Blue.

[Gannon]

Doug,

Even I'm not fool enough to pass up the chance to ride that kinda power-trip at least ONCE, guilt-free! As I've said before, whatever gets your adrenal glands kicking juice, as long as it doesn't directly hurt another!


I'm merely reacting to yet another story of grotesque atrocity served up to unarmed and seemingly peaceful indigenous people by paid agents of a government tied to the current zeitgeist, in light of a book that I'm reading from a fellow named Derrick Jensen...A Language Older Than Words. Pretty powerful stuff.

Much of what I said was proposed in a similar way by him a few chapters ago. I cannot put his book down, yet I also cannot face much of what he reveals quite plainly by his direct and occasionally hilarious wordplay...and wordwork, I guess. He is a fabulous storyteller and dead-serious 'fablist'. Every fable has a lesson, and I'm trying to grasp his...although he gets SO close to outright destructive activism I can barely turn another page after some of his musings.


I am not trying to be the conscience of the forum, or anything like that. I am merely trying to figure it all out for myself...and y'all get to be my sounding board. Been that way since the first time I posted.


The interchange has always been interesting and enlightening...and I've learned and grown loads in the past eight years or so. If pressed, I could probably name a few of the key discussions that had the greatest impact on me. That'll be something we get into over those beers...if I should be so lucky to drink with you again. We DID drink after that...yeah...Kwhyme rally, at Checker Bar. I've been through some extreme stress and loss since, so forgive the memory stumble.


Cheers, really, even while I'm wrestling with the depth of all this data...I somehow can still function while it is churning in my mind and heart. I really don't know how, but I do.

Sincerely,
John

[elganned]

You bring up a valid point, if a nation's people were brutalized and not permitted to advance by foreign oppression, when they achieve "freedom" will they not continue the same patterns of oppression?

It is not a valid point. The history and tradition of strongman rule in Africa predates European imperialism by many centuries. This appears merely to be a reversion to type following a brief intermission.

[jams]

Yet, even the nations' borders are vestiges of European imperialism, you can't dismiss a few hundred years of foreign domination and expect a different result.

Hell, European borders were established by "strongman rule".

[jams]

This appears merely to be a reversion to type...

Guess you mean Africans are typically "barbarians", a term historically applied to the Germanic tribes

[rb336]

It is not a valid point. The history and tradition of strongman rule in Africa predates European imperialism by many centuries. This appears merely to be a reversion to type following a brief intermission.

there were so many different types of polity in Africa prior to colonialism that any blanket statement such as yours merely makes you look foolish. Kingdoms like Mali, Zimabawe, Axum, etc were stong states, and ran much like the tyrannical european monarchies. There were city-states ruled much as Venice was, there were chiefdoms. In both the city-states and chiefdoms, power was often held by a group of elites. There were numerous stateless societies - even some where female groups were the main authority

[Gannon]

He's saying these sorts of actions were performed before the Euros got there...effectively giving them some wiggle room from total blame...I gather.


So, it goes to the heart of mere human nature...once again. Because it is NOT ubiquitous. There have been peaceful and loving cultures, they just often lose to these strongmen's brutality and aggression.


Some still survive...though...so it is NOT rampant in the genes.

If it were, it wouldn't so wrongly-rub your and my spirit, Jams!

[elganned]

"We don't mind if the meek inherit the earth--as long as they stay meek after they get it."

[ccbatson]

"440 Dippy Wagon"?? I don't exactly know what that is, but I like it.

[ccbatson]

BTW, I fired up the 67 427/435 this weekend and given the fall cool air, it was heavenly to drive.

[Gannon]

This with a 440-Hemi engine, and hopefully the manual transmission.



I didn't know they made 'em with the 225-manual combination. 25 highway mpg.

[elganned]

There have been peaceful and loving cultures, they just often lose to these strongmen's brutality and aggression.


Some still survive...though...so it is NOT rampant in the genes.

Name them.

The death of innocence is never peaceful. By its very nature, it is always murder.

[ccbatson]

Gannon??!! You are knowledgeable in the dark arts of American Muscle Cars? Al Gore would be none to happy.