RenCen plan would demolish 2 towers — but it hinges on public money

**Henry Whalley** · March-09-25, 02:54 PM

[QUOTE=401don;647947][QUOTE=stasu1213;647945]

...Where are you getting your info that he's not? /QUOTE]

If it's a bad idea, he'll do it.

**Gistok** · March-10-25, 04:29 AM

GM made record profits last year [depending on the figure used] circa $15 billion [I will never understand TESLA's stock value] in 2024, the average worker getting $14,500. With such a spectacular year, GM could do some 'contributing to the city'.

Ford spent on Detroit's future with their $900+ million building "Michigan Central" and environs. That was a tremendous contribution to Detroit, heard worldwide! It became a news item worldwide about Detroit's future.

And then there is GM. When their HQ was in New Center they did a lot of positive things in the area, such as the renovate or build the New Center Common, the shabby neighborhood to the north. That left a nice legacy.

When GM moved to the Ren Cen... they did a lot of work on the building, spent $500 million... got rid of the berms, a new facade, modified the atrium [converted or added the top level to get from one tower to another], built the wonderful Winter Garden [see photo]. They promised a never delivered little riverfront village in the vast parking wilderness east of the RenCen.

So the legacy left by Ford is the wonderful Michigan Central Station & environs.. that will be a tribute to Ford... for a long time!

And the legacy left by GM will likely be the undoing of their $500 million, including destroy 40% of RenCen. There's no amount of "lipstick you can put on this pig". Their legacy for downtown Detroit is nil. People really won't be thrilled about using tax money to do so.

P.S. Reclaiming riverfront land is a lame excuse. The Riverwalk connect enough parks, NONE are too crowded.

**Gistok** · March-10-25, 04:41 AM

I think that all four 39 story towers should be residential. What a way to boost downtown's residential population. Using public money to convert them to residential would be much more acceptable that using it to bulldoze part of the city's icon.

I realize that reconfiguring for apartments would be extremely expensive. They should just update the pluming of the existing building core, and sell each floor as 2 condo lofts. Let the buyers build out the space themselves, with the stipulation that there are certain locations where plumbing is located. Granted that limits the option of having a shower/tub by the window...

Turning the emptied out floors of former offices into lofts... hmmm... wonder if that's an option for the dearth of former office space nationwide??

**canuck** · March-10-25, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

I think that all four 39 story towers should be residential. What a way to boost downtown's residential population. Using public money to convert them to residential would be much more acceptable that using it to bulldoze part of the city's icon.

I realize that reconfiguring for apartments would be extremely expensive. They should just update the pluming of the existing building core, and sell each floor as 2 condo lofts. Let the buyers build out the space themselves, with the stipulation that there are certain locations where plumbing is located. Granted that limits the option of having a shower/tub by the window...

Turning the emptied out floors of former offices into lofts... hmmm... wonder if that's an option for the dearth of former office space nationwide??

There may be ways around the problem of mechanical and plumbing in these buildings with fairly simple solutions. There are so many buildings getting conversions to residential these days in the wake of covid. These office buildings have tall ceilings, and bathrooms on podiums could probably redirect waste lines on fairly easy slopes. What is the sq footage for each floor?

**Jason** · March-10-25, 03:32 PM

That's good thinking actually. Raised floor systems aren't really that uncommon, and it would allow all the plumbing to run to the existing vertical mechanical shafts, and would give a lot of flexibility for the floor plans.

**K-slice** · March-11-25, 07:58 AM

Lots of people with no building engineering background or knowledge of the current buildings constructions or limitations saying it'll be easy to convert to resdiential... Who could argue?

**401don** · March-11-25, 10:37 AM

Do we really think there is demand for 4 towers of residential? A lot residential has come online in recent years. Anyone know what the downtown occcupancy rate is?

**canuck** · March-11-25, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by K-slice

Lots of people with no building engineering background or knowledge of the current buildings constructions or limitations saying it'll be easy to convert to resdiential... Who could argue?

We’re only speculating, I wouldn’t want to cast a shadow on your expertise. Go on, tell us what is and isn’t possible.

**56packman** · March-11-25, 04:52 PM

The Ren Cen really deserves the full Detroit experience:
1) it gets sold to a buyer that is less able to really afford it, but their outfit makes a stab at it. They are less able to afford upkeep as the building ages.
2) it gets sold again to one guy, who can just make the downstroke on it, and he’s absolutely not able to care for it as it ages further.
3) the last owner just walks away from it, leaves.
4) plywood goes up on all the first floor windows, hiding the scrappers who are working like Dickensian orphans to steal every bit of metal worth a dime.
5) the pundits label it “an eyesore” then the city government has to get involved, at which time they…………
6) pay for the demolition.

really folks, it deserves nothing less. We have time-honored traditions to keep up here.

**Henry Whalley** · March-11-25, 05:00 PM

[QUOTE=56packman;647989]...really folks, it deserves nothing less. [QUOTE]

How would you handle the situation?

**EASTSIDER BALDUCK** · March-17-25, 11:39 AM

I hate to say it but,

I've always hated it. Ford got off well building/selling.
GM buying was a mistake, but profited.

Now it's Detroit's?

Scarlet Letter, burn it.

What a waste of city/county/state $.

**401don** · March-17-25, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by EASTSIDER BALDUCK

I hate to say it but,

I've always hated it. Ford got off well building/selling.
GM buying was a mistake, but profited.

Now it's Detroit's?

Scarlet Letter, burn it.

What a waste of city/county/state $.

How exactly did GM profit with the millions they poured into it?

**ABetterDetroit** · March-17-25, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by EASTSIDER BALDUCK

Now it's Detroit's?

Incorrect. The Building belongs to GM. GM was quite clear that they were Not going to leave a vacant ‘Packard Plant’ downtown and if another use couldn’t be found that they would tear it down on their dime. That is and has been option #2.

**mwilbert** · March-17-25, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by canuck

We’re only speculating, I wouldn’t want to cast a shadow on your expertise. Go on, tell us what is and isn’t possible.

I don't think anyone thinks it isn't possible. The question is how much subsidy it would take to do. I think the answer as currently understood is that you might be able to get enough subsidy to convert one tower, but no one is going to be willing to pony up the money to make it feasible to convert all four.

If people can figure out a way to make the conversions economic, I think that would be great, but I'd sure like to see a construction budget.

**canuck** · March-18-25, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

I don't think anyone thinks it isn't possible. The question is how much subsidy it would take to do. I think the answer as currently understood is that you might be able to get enough subsidy to convert one tower, but no one is going to be willing to pony up the money to make it feasible to convert all four.

If people can figure out a way to make the conversions economic, I think that would be great, but I'd sure like to see a construction budget.

Sure, whatever project comes out, you need someone with a pretty sharp pencil to make it work. Two towers flanking a central building may be the maximum, and make more sense.

Different levels of government should avoid getting sucked into the financials of it but support by providing tweaks in small scale amenities where possible.

Impeded views are a problem, but I see people buying into condo towers in my city where they can anticipate having another one plopped a mere two hundred feet away. This entails the advent of another massive noisy construction site that lasts a couple of years…

A lot of folks can do without a backyard and a driveway. It has to be marketed to these folks, but how many will bite in the Detroit metro?

**stasu1213** · March-18-25, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by EASTSIDER BALDUCK

I hate to say it but,

I've always hated it. Ford got off well building/selling.
GM buying was a mistake, but profited.

Now it's Detroit's?

Scarlet Letter, burn it.

What a waste of city/county/state $.

When did it become Detroit taxpayers responsibility? This is owned by G.M. This council is not doing Detroit taxpayers any justice. They are the legislative brach of city government. It's fine if G.M. want to raze two or all four towers. Us taxpayers shouldn't help fund the demolition. G.M. has more than enough funding to do it

**EASTSIDER BALDUCK** · March-18-25, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

When did it become Detroit taxpayers responsibility? This is owned by G.M. This council is not doing Detroit taxpayers any justice. They are the legislative brach of city government. It's fine if G.M. want to raze two or all four towers. Us taxpayers shouldn't help fund the demolition. G.M. has more than enough funding to do it

Check your post from 2009/10

**jcole** · March-18-25, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by 56packman

The Ren Cen really deserves the full Detroit experience:
1) it gets sold to a buyer that is less able to really afford it, but their outfit makes a stab at it. They are less able to afford upkeep as the building ages.
2) it gets sold again to one guy, who can just make the downstroke on it, and he’s absolutely not able to care for it as it ages further.
3) the last owner just walks away from it, leaves.
4) plywood goes up on all the first floor windows, hiding the scrappers who are working like Dickensian orphans to steal every bit of metal worth a dime.
5) the pundits label it “an eyesore” then the city government has to get involved, at which time they…………
6) pay for the demolition.

really folks, it deserves nothing less. We have time-honored traditions to keep up here.

**jcole** · March-18-25, 09:16 AM

Skip the middleman and tear the eyesore down.
[QUOTE=Henry Whalley;647990][QUOTE=56packman;647989]...really folks, it deserves nothing less.

How would you handle the situation?

**K-slice** · March-18-25, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by canuck

We’re only speculating, I wouldn’t want to cast a shadow on your expertise. Go on, tell us what is and isn’t possible.

I Have intimate knowledge of the plans and the current state of the building. The plan as proposed saves as much of the building as possible while converting to residential. The only way to convert all 4 towers due to the design would be to disassemble two of them, then rebuild them after the podium has been removed and totally rebuilt. The age of the building and the fact that it was designed for office use makes a conversion of all four essentially impossible.

**canuck** · March-18-25, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by K-slice

I Have intimate knowledge of the plans and the current state of the building. The plan as proposed saves as much of the building as possible while converting to residential. The only way to convert all 4 towers due to the design would be to disassemble two of them, then rebuild them after the podium has been removed and totally rebuilt. The age of the building and the fact that it was designed for office use makes a conversion of all four essentially impossible.

Ok. So, this means that the 5 towers will be there in the end, then.
Are two of the square towers to remain office and the rebuilt residential?

**stasu1213** · Yesterday, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by EASTSIDER BALDUCK

Check your post from 2009/10

Repost it for me

**Satiricalivory** · Yesterday, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by K-slice

I Have intimate knowledge of the plans and the current state of the building. The plan as proposed saves as much of the building as possible while converting to residential. The only way to convert all 4 towers due to the design would be to disassemble two of them, then rebuild them after the podium has been removed and totally rebuilt. The age of the building and the fact that it was designed for office use makes a conversion of all four essentially impossible.

What are you talking about? Why would it be necessary to disassemble two of the towers but the other two can stay perfectly intact? Makes absolutely no sense.

**stinkytofu** · Yesterday, 02:21 PM

FWIW I've also heard from a very trustworthy person that taking down two towers is actually incredibly difficult due to the platform. Everything is so interconnected.

Also, there are tenants that don't necessarily want to leave and there is no way to force them out of 5-10 year leases...

Sounds like a giant cluster to be honest.

**Gistok** · Yesterday, 07:40 PM

^ Yeah, I can see that the 4 tower and hotel sharing the same utilities and foundation. Someone try to rationalize that it's cheaper to tear down and reconfigure that mess than it is to convert the office tower to residential?? I can't see that as being the case.

I can also see that they would have to close the hotel during the demo/rebuild phase. A very difficult task that could take years. The entire staff would have to be fired.

It would be a long time that Detroit would be without its' largest [[1,300 room) hotel!