RenCen plan would demolish 2 towers — but it hinges on public money

[casscorridor]

I'm really disappointed in this proposal and shocked that they're seriously considering this. This really violates the aesthetic integrity of the building and makes it look lopsided and unbalanced. I'm also surprised by all of the support and excitement this is getting from the mayor, city council and Bedrock. I fail to see how butchering the most recognizable building in Detroit, and probably all of Michigan, sends a great message.

The mayor drank a bit too much of the Dan Gilbert Kool-Aid. He's done a lot of good for the city, but handing out a quarter billion dollars to shuffle around existing jobs while defacing Michigan's most recognizable landmark is insane.

[Gistok]

The mayor drank a bit too much of the Dan Gilbert Kool-Aid. He's done a lot of good for the city, but handing out a quarter billion dollars to shuffle around existing jobs while defacing Michigan's most recognizable landmark is insane.

Agreed! Always been a fan of Gilbert before, even with him getting subsidies.

But this is bullshit! Michigan already paid to help develop the Hudson's Block. But paying to "un-develop" the RenCen is absurd. What is the benefit to the city of Detroit to do this?

GM is the cause of this mess... they went ahead and did what they said they weren't going to do... not move all of their employees to the Warren Tech Center.

There is little difference between what Chrysler did to Highland Park by moving to Auburn Hills, and what GM is doing by moving to Warren, but with just a token few hundred employees staying behind taking up the top floor or two in the Hudson's Block.

[Richard]

The mayor drank a bit too much of the Dan Gilbert Kool-Aid. He's done a lot of good for the city, but handing out a quarter billion dollars to shuffle around existing jobs while defacing Michigan's most recognizable landmark is insane.

The demolition aspect was already allocated from the infrastructure funds,they knew what they were going to do long before it was announced.

With the infrastructure funds,the ones allocated for demolition there is really only two arguments,more demolition in the neighborhoods or This place.

The money was going to be spent no matter what anybody says,because it is fed money and they sure are not going to send it back.

The only thing that can put a fly in the ointment is with the incoming fed administration and his trunk monkey sidekick they may get a wild hair and claw back infrastructure funds.

It’s happened before .

[Gistok]

Also, I get a chuckle out of people complaining that the RenCen is too complicated to navigate. When I was in attendance at the 1977 ribbon cutting, I picked up a site map that showed the way around, just like any large mall would do, and I never became lost.

With GPS today... is picking up and reading/comprehending a map now a lost skill set? Admitting that you can't figure out how to navigate the center... that sounds almost embarrassing to admit!!

[401don]

Also, I get a chuckle out of people complaining that the RenCen is too complicated to navigate. When I was in attendance at the 1977 ribbon cutting, I picked up a site map that showed the way around, just like any large mall would do, and I never became lost.

With GPS today... is picking up and reading/comprehending a map now a lost skill set? Admitting that you can't figure out how to navigate the center... that sounds almost embarrassing to admit!!

I've never needed a site map to find my way around a shopping mall. I might look at a sign to see where a specific store is located but never found the need for a map to get out of the mall. The RenCen was very confusing when you were walking within individual towers. Of course with all the stores closed there was no need to go within them for many years. The elevated walkway and site lines to the Wintergarden greatly improved things.

[ABetterDetroit]

Agreed! Always been a fan of Gilbert before, even with him getting subsidies.

But this is bullshit! Michigan already paid to help develop the Hudson's Block. But paying to "un-develop" the RenCen is absurd. What is the benefit to the city of Detroit to do this?

GM is the cause of this mess... they went ahead and did what they said they weren't going to do... not move all of their employees to the Warren Tech Center.

There is little difference between what Chrysler did to Highland Park by moving to Auburn Hills, and what GM is doing by moving to Warren, but with just a token few hundred employees staying behind taking up the top floor or two in the Hudson's Block.

Not arguing that GM should be on the hook here but what is the best next move dealing with the problem at hand? There is zero chance that GM is going to change their mind and decide to stay after all.

Option A would be putting the screws to GM to solve the problem on their own. That doesn’t sound too appealing, we will end up with the thing getting sold off for a song to a speculator that hopes they can double or triple their money a decade down the road to some other half baked plan when the city is desperate to do something with the dark vacant behemoth at the foot of Woodward.

Option B would be to attempt to force GM to tear the whole thing down. Not a cheap proposition but they are willing to put up 250 Mill for this plan so that would be a starting point anyway.

Given the choices Bedrock’s plan imo would make the most sense even considering what we can automatically assume would be a very lengthy project. This property is humongous at 5+ Million sq feet, not exactly what anyone is out shopping for to add to their portfolio these days. At least Bedrock has serious skin in the game to keep the momentum of the city moving forward.

[Gistok]

^ Agree. I was in a bad mood when I posted the above...

The redevelopment [[or downsizing) doesn't even pretend to look interesting. I don't think all those "sheds"along the waterfront is going to do anything to get more people down there.

For me, the most irritating thing is that every time we have to look at the "new" RenCen when going downtown, will be the reminder of the downsizing of downtown.

[Redesigned83]

I don't think the sheds are exactly what the plan is from what I've heard. It's more a general "public space" render. I think all of that is still being discussed.

[canuck]

I don't think the sheds are exactly what the plan is from what I've heard. It's more a general "public space" render. I think all of that is still being discussed.

Yes, I don’t know what to think of the dismantling of the towers, apart from disappointment.

As far as the sheds go, it seems like a rather timid compensatory design to divert attention from the main issue.

[401don]

For me, the most irritating thing is that every time we have to look at the "new" RenCen when going downtown, will be the reminder of the downsizing of downtown.

Obviously, it would be better to have the RenCen standing and occupied, but I look at this as "the revenge of the art deco skyscrapers." So much of the RenCen stole tenants from those buildings. Now almost 50 years later, those buildings stand, renovated and gleaming, while the silos are imploded. As an achitecture fan I think that would be your preferred outcome if the market says we can't have both.

[Burnsie]

So much of the RenCen stole tenants from those buildings. Now almost 50 years later, those buildings stand, renovated and gleaming, while the silos are imploded.

With the notable exception of the slumlord-owned Penobscot.

[Hypestyles]

shortsighted to use public money for any planned demolition and construction. "the public" doesn't benefit from this at all. Get the billionaire class to pay for it themselves. Austerity has been gouging working class/poor Detroit for decades. A class of folks regionally think that's just normal.

[Scottathew]

I think you are missing a piece of the plan, which is that they would eliminate the base. There's nothing inherently confusing about a residential tower.

100% agree. Once you're in a tower, it's not confusing. The base sucks, but that can be redone however they want while leaving the towers intact.

There are elements to the plan that I like and dislike. I don't like tearing down the towers, but I do love the residential conversions. Getting more people to live downtown is important, and will get us closer to a critical mass that will result in the things the people need to live appearing downtown.

If downtown/midtown can become a place where you can live and work without a car, it could be a huge draw.

[stasu1213]

I think if Gilbert seek opinions from outside consultants whether national or international they may could impart ideas on how to utilize all four towers instead of razing two of them. I know that local demolition companies don't want to hear that because each would like to get it's bid or no-bid contract to raze these huge structures

[ABetterDetroit]

I think if Gilbert seek opinions from outside consultants whether national or international they may could impart ideas on how to utilize all four towers instead of razing two of them. I know that local demolition companies don't want to hear that because each would like to get it's bid or no-bid contract to raze these huge structures

Why on earth would Bedrock take the lead on this project and put up 1 Billion of their own money and do anything ‘no-bid?’ Or is it just important to you to throw out unfounded accusations of corruption in every single post you make on this forum no matter the subject?

[Dan Wesson]

One of my favorite financial websites has a article on this topic that echo's some thoughts here and goes deeper.

https://wolfstreet.com/2024/11/30/of...ar-spike-ever/

[401don]

One of my favorite financial websites has a article on this topic that echo's some thoughts here and goes deeper.

https://wolfstreet.com/2024/11/30/of...ar-spike-ever/

Good article. As it states, it's not just remote work which has led to the glut. GM in particular needs less space every year as it looks to become leaner with less people in each of its divisions which have less vehicles and market share.

[Atticus]

I have no issue with public money being used for a conversion/renovation of two of the towers, the main tower, or the base. It’s the demolition of the other two towers I can’t justify.

Fully admit there may not be a business case for the two extra towers, or enough subsidy to make a business case. So be it… and then “moth ball” it. It’s absurd to suggest demolition is better optics than just moth balling the two vacant towers. Certainly moth balling is less costly. It’s also absurd to suggest that demolition of MCS 30 years ago would have been a better solution than poorly done MCS moth balling over those 30 years. I don’t give Matty M. credit for much, but I am glad he didn’t demo MCS when he couldn’t make a business case. Feel the same way here. Renovation or moth ball, those should be the two options on the table.

[401don]

Renovation or moth ball, those should be the two options on the table.

Either way I think they should move forward with demolition of the base as quickly as is feasible. There's a ton of square footage requiring heating & cooling that's unlikely to ever find a use. Of course they would have to design separate entrances to the hotel and any towers still in use.

[Vic01]

I read an article [[sorry no time to go back and find the link) saying that GM would cover the demo if no funding were provided, seems only fair

[401don]

I read an article [[sorry no time to go back and find the link) saying that GM would cover the demo if no funding were provided, seems only fair

GM said they would demo everything and the article is calling it corporate blackmail.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...d/76658555007/

[Gistok]

Atticus, I agree with you 100%.

GM said back in 2013 that they were considering moving all their folks to the Warren Tech Center, and then said [[with city and state pressure) that they would not.

Well it looks like they lied to everyone, they have been quietly moving their people out to Warren ever since then... and the Tech Center now has 21,000 employees. They are basically doing what Chrysler did to Highland Park, when they moved to Auburn Hills. But at least Chrysler was honest about it. So now GM [and also Gilbert] are holding the gun to the city's head! Either go with our downsizing, which will not open up what is already open... namely the riverfront. And there is no such thing as "undoing" the fortress that is the RenCen. All they want to do is make a smaller fortress.

If riverfront land is in such demand, then why is Hart Plaza so underutilized? And why is the Ford Auditorium site still just an underground parking bunker. And just look at all of that land that GM owns east of the RenCen... just a sea of parking and parking structures.

The "opening up the riverfront"... is pure bullshit as an excuse. The Riverwalk already goes along there. Does it require more land be available there for any SPECIFIC reason? Just saying "making the riverfront more accessible is just a slogan. It is only used 6 months of the year anyway. In the 6 months when it is cold, it is a ghost town.

[Zacha341]

^ Great points. Particularly that last paragraph. I get to tired of slogans over-used to make cover or justify an action or policy. Or politic!

[Richard]

I have no issue with public money being used for a conversion/renovation of two of the towers, the main tower, or the base. It’s the demolition of the other two towers I can’t justify.

Fully admit there may not be a business case for the two extra towers, or enough subsidy to make a business case. So be it… and then “moth ball” it. It’s absurd to suggest demolition is better optics than just moth balling the two vacant towers. Certainly moth balling is less costly. It’s also absurd to suggest that demolition of MCS 30 years ago would have been a better solution than poorly done MCS moth balling over those 30 years. I don’t give Matty M. credit for much, but I am glad he didn’t demo MCS when he couldn’t make a business case. Feel the same way here. Renovation or moth ball, those should be the two options on the table.

I am a supporter of mothballing but the problem is with newer construction is it was built with a life span in mind,verses before construction was built along with materials to last generations.

Even with new homes they have a life expectancy of 50 years.

Look inside of a closed down shopping mall or supermarket,without maintaining climate controls they deteriorate pretty quick verses a building that was built before A/C.

The heating and cooling costs of those towers,ongoing maintenance and security would be astronomical.

Those early glass buildings are not energy efficient at all,so in order to “removate” it,it would have to be brought up to current codes and energy standards.

As in replacing all of that glass,so then you are starting out with a shell,there is a reason they are looking at the demolition aspect because at the end of the day it’s not a charity it’s a business that has to make sense no different then if they are using taxpayer dollars,the city has to receive a return otherwise it is not worth it.

[JBMcB]

Well it looks like they lied to everyone, they have been quietly moving their people out to Warren ever since then... and the Tech Center now has 21,000 employees.

Which administrative divisions have moved to Warren? I know a dozen people who work for GM and they say nobody has been moved to Warren from the ren cen. There are more people working in Warren, mainly because they moved truck from Pontiac and parts of manufacturing engineering that was still up in Flint.