Why hasn't Detroit ever owned up to its urban planning blunders?

[iheartthed]

I was just reading about the expressway that was once proposed to be built across Lower Manhattan. If built, that project would have leveled many of what are today's most desirable neighborhoods in New York City. A former New York City Assemblyman said about the project:

Except for one old man, I’ve been unable to find anyone of technical competence who is for this so-called expressway. And this old man is a cantankerous, stubborn old man who has done many things which may have, in their time, been good for New York City. But I think it is time for this stubborn old man to realize that too many of his dreams turn out to be nightmares for the city. And this board must realize that if it does not kill this stupid example of bad city planning, that the stench of it will haunt them and this great city for many years to come

The "old man", Robert Moses, favored 1950s Detroit style car-oriented development over mass transit and pedestrian oriented development. Fortunately, the city of New York put the kibosh on the project before it ever became a reality.

But unfortunately, the city of Detroit did not put the kibosh on many of their misguided city planning efforts like the excessive freeways, Poletown, the Riverfront casino project, the list goes on. These renewal/reinvention projects have done MUCH more to make the city less viable than a riot that took place before more than half the current residents were born.

So why is it that the city of Detroit [[and the state for that matter) has never been forced to reconcile their planning blunders? Instead, the leaders grapple with these red herring arguments and continue implementing misguided policies. It's common in Detroit to talk about broken car windows, and muggings as for why the city isn't viable. But those are just symptoms of the real problem[[s) that makes Detroit such an inhospitable place; it became a city that isn't built for people anymore. IMO, of course.

[Gsgeorge]

You're 100% right.

You also answered some of your own questions, I think. Detroit is an auto-oriented city and will continue to be for some time to come. And Michigan has never been a leader when it comes to public transit or pedestrian-oriented development. None of our major cities have a viable inter-city rail network. And all of our major cities have sprawling suburbs, freeway megaprojects, and big-box developments on their peripheries.

That seems to be changing, incrementally, but unfortunately the rest of the country is way, way ahead of us in regards to this. Even Gary, Indiana is spearheading efforts to restore its abandoned train station and put in a light-rail system.

Until we elect a more competent leadership, and find people who are committed to investing in solid public transit and smart developments, we will continue to see neighborhoods decimated for enormous casinos, historic structures demolished to make way for parking, and more and more enhancements and to our massive freeway systems.

But it's also not that easy. Transit-oriented and pedestrian-oriented development takes a change in the way we, the people, want to and like to live. We have been so ingrained in the automobile culture because of its convenience and speed that we have forgotten about the convenience and speed of walking down the street to your local market, hopping on the streetcar to visit your friends in another neighborhood, or enjoying the sense of community and excitement that pervades denser neighborhoods.

Before Michigan and Detroit "own up" to their planning mistakes, we the people have to make it clear we want the opposite of what we've been getting. Unfortunately, this may very well be the hardest part.

[rjlj]

When you hire people like your friends and family and put people in charge who have no experience in urban and land use planning, Detroit at its present state is your result. Without a clear vision and master plan by educated planners, we will continue to have a city that is not built for people.

[daddeeo]

Someone would have to admit they were wrong and that's not going to happen.
I wouldn't down play broken car windows and other crime by somehow excusing it because of poor urban planning. That's just giving scumbags another excuse for leniency if and when they get caught.

[Detroitnerd]

The leadership hasn't owned up to the "mistakes" because it fully intends to keep doing same. Only when they decide not to do it anymore are they regretfully looked back upon as "mistakes."

That quote about Moses could be said for many of our local leaders.

[digitalvision]

Some of those blunders were carved out when, let's just say, another group of people controlled the city government. The current government structure from Coleman Young on [[Bing's not been around long enough to know), as it's been told to me many times, does not feel they have much to apologize for. That, and administration attitude changes - Riverfront Casinos were Archer's baby. Did you expect Kilpatrick to apologize for Archer's mistake?

If anything, you're going to find anger for the black neighborhoods that were erased due to the freeways and "urban renewal" plans.

And if you're thinking suburban leaders would apologize... the freeways [[with pockets of urbanity) have worked out really well for L. Brooks Patterson and Oakland County, which now has more economic activity than some small states.

These policies, in general, are the policies that people want here. If you want New York or Chicago, move there. Detroit is Detroit, not Boston.

[Detroitnerd]

These policies, in general, are the policies that people want here. If you want New York or Chicago, move there. Detroit is Detroit, not Boston.

I don't understand this comment. Are you saying that anybody who wants decent urban planning should leave?

[iheartthed]

Someone would have to admit they were wrong and that's not going to happen.
I wouldn't down play broken car windows and other crime by somehow excusing it because of poor urban planning. That's just giving scumbags another excuse for leniency if and when they get caught.

Well, don't confuse my point with excusing the acts of criminals. My point was that the physical environment of Detroit makes the criminal activity more attractive. Car windows don't get broken when cars are parked on the street in Midtown Manhattan because you have dozens of people walking past going to subway stations, restaurants, bars, etc.

[iheartthed]

Some of those blunders were carved out when, let's just say, another group of people controlled the city government. The current government structure from Coleman Young on [[Bing's not been around long enough to know), as it's been told to me many times, does not feel they have much to apologize for. That, and administration attitude changes - Riverfront Casinos were Archer's baby. Did you expect Kilpatrick to apologize for Archer's mistake?

If anything, you're going to find anger for the black neighborhoods that were erased due to the freeways and "urban renewal" plans.

And if you're thinking suburban leaders would apologize... the freeways [[with pockets of urbanity) have worked out really well for L. Brooks Patterson and Oakland County, which now has more economic activity than some small states.

These policies, in general, are the policies that people want here. If you want New York or Chicago, move there. Detroit is Detroit, not Boston.

Well, I did move there. But the whole point of this forum is to bitch about why Detroit is dead. [[That's what the question asks every time I log in.) So apparently the people who live there don't have what they want.

I'm not saying that someone should come out and "apologize", but there seems to be no acknowledgement at any level that these ill-thought out policies have had a tremendous detrimental effect on the city. Kilpatrick did not need to be the decision maker at the time to acknowledge a previous bad decision by Archer. Coleman didn't need to be mayor to acknowledge a bad decision by Cavanaugh [[but Coleman was the mayor during Poletown). Only when the bad decision making is acknowledged can there then be an effort to correct the mistakes.

What I see in Detroit is that there is no challenge to the line of thought that created the current mess that is the city. And I'm not talking about racist/classist bickering between city and suburban leaders. I'm talking about engineering an environment that is inhospitable for the type of dense population that once existed in the city.

[Detroitnerd]

We'll fix the problem by enlarging it.

[luckycar]

I was in the Riverfront Casino area last week.What a waste.This should have kept a viable enertainment area.Everyday that Pontiac is under state control and broke,is another day that downtown Pontiac misses out on being Royal Oak or Birmingham.The braintrust that planned the loop around town should have been brought up on charges years ago.

[rustic]

Detroit's urban planning blunders well predate the 1950's-1970's freeway construction projects. In addition, some of the results of these blunders are often praised by many and have become iconic over time [[MCS, RenCen). Here is one to consider that many might find suprising:

New Center. New Center was a disaster in terms of it's overall impact on the urban fabric of Detroit. Way worse IMO than, say, the impact Northland had on CBD shopping. New Center was isolated from its initial concept. any grandiose thoughts of linking the 3-4 miles [[!) between New Center and downtown with high-density skyscraper infill construction were absolute nonsense. Not only is New Center located miles away from the CBD but it also leapfrogged an active and valuable industrial manufacturing area and major industrial rail lines.

The bulidings are certainly individually beautiful, and as a cluster they are very impressive. New Center is a monument to a swaggering arrogant olden tymes Detroit, a Detroit so wealthy and arrogant that within the short span of a couple of decades could concieve of, build, and populate the equivalent of a downtown Cleveland or St. Louis miles from it's actual CBD! Too bad alla that development didn't happen just north of grand circus park along Woodward rather than waay out on West Grand Blvd. Imagine the fabulous ruins THAT woulda made ...

[Detroitnerd]

Yeah, Detroit grew fastest just as American cities were abandoning [[or freed from) all the things that made them attractive.

[digitalvision]

IHD - I don't think the leaders in the past necessarily preferred the dense population or walkable, urban spaces - and I think now it's all about putting the budget/collapse/receivership fire out. And even then, I'm not convinced either Bing or his challenger Barrow are any different on this issue. Many if not most of the new development you see across the city is suburban in style - Jefferson avenue after you cross 375 is looking more and more suburban every day. Woodward north of Grand Blvd - almost anything that gets knocked down gets replaced with a huge setback. Some urbanists I've talked to don't believe downtown Detroit will be the walkable center of the region, or is currently [[gasp!) Looking at the data, I can see how one comes to that conclusion.

DN - the question comes down to a personal one. If you are willing to wait between 10-25 years to maybe have the city you want to live in, great. Or, you decide to move somewhere else and get whatever "X" you want - in your case good urban planning - and get it now, or within the next couple years it takes you personally to make that move. Some that "X" is safety, others it's schools, others it's employment, or a combination. Most start out saying they are willing to wait for their personal "X", but personal experience tells me most burn out after 4-6 years and leave, and I can't say I blame them. Some, it's the process of building, not the destination, that enthralls them, and of course, that's valid too.

Many city lovers in this area I meet however, they've never actually lived in a New York or San Francisco or Chicago, or even visited them. To be honest, unless you've functioned [[visitors only see so much, I really mean live in them for even a month or six) in those spaces, you don't actually know what you're talking about when it comes to urbanity, where Detroit, Royal Oak, Birmingham and the region are in regards to it, what it would take, what's needed. It's all a bit of a walkable romance in those cases.

Books help, but they can't teach you the feel, the perceived distances, the vibe that occurs - and they can't teach you if you actually like it. Seen that too. They live in in an area for a few months and realize what it's really like to be without a car or without that instant mobility - and they come on back. Again, that's okay. That's life. Better to have experienced it and know what you want than not.

[mwilbert]

As digitalvision says, the people responsible for the initial errors are long gone and buried. Current leaders are rather short of resources, but need to figure out how to manage shrinkage. If they don't, there will be a new set of people to blame.

There have been a number of steps discussed on this forum as to how move forward from where we are, but my impression is that the ideas which I think might work are not popular, and that there are no mainstream ideas that have any chance of working. Probably people will have to be completely desperate before it will be politically possible to do what is needed. Maybe not even then.

[gnome]

I'm heading out to Woodlawn Cemetery to bitch-slap that P.O.S. Mayor Cobo. After I scrap some worms off my fingers, I'm going to kick Miriani's boney ass all over town.

Feel better now?

[Detroitnerd]

I'll gladly bring a shovel.

'Punish Cobo' Effort Gets Under Way

Armed with shovels and what one participant described as a "pair of shit-kickers," angry Detroit residents charged into Woodlawn Cemetery to dig up the body of long-dead Detroit Mayor Albert Cobo [[1950-1957) to give him a sound beating.

One combatant, identified only as "The Gnome," vowed to "pummel" the bodies of all Detroit mayors after Hazen Pingree [[1890-1897).

"They thought they'd be safe from us by dying and being buried six feet underground, but we're gonna dig 'em up and beat 'em up, too, because of all the bad decisions they've made."

One shovel-wielding man, identified only as Detroitnerd, a haggard and apparently drunk miscreant, said he would rather have started with Mayor Edward Jeffries [[1940-1948), but disinterring the corpse of Cobo was "a good start."

...

[Stosh]

I'll gladly bring a shovel.

'Punish Cobo' Effort Gets Under Way

Armed with shovels and what one participant described as a "pair of shit-kickers," angry Detroit residents charged into Woodlawn Cemetery to dig up the body of long-dead Detroit Mayor Albert Cobo [[1950-1957) to give him a sound beating.

One combatant, identified only as "The Gnome," vowed to "pummel" the bodies of all Detroit mayors after Hazen Pingree [[1890-1897).

"They thought they'd be safe from us by dying and being buried six feet underground, but we're gonna dig 'em up and beat 'em up, too, because of all the bad decisions they've made."

One shovel-wielding man, identified only as Detroitnerd, a haggard and apparently drunk miscreant, said he would rather have started with Mayor Edward Jeffries [[1940-1948), but disinterring the corpse of Cobo was "a good start."

...

Why stop there? The decisions to disembowel Black Bottom were made in the 30's, possibly before. War years and depression intervened to postpone the inevitable. I believe this was a state project as well, so possibly adding a few Goveernors and state Transportation directors to the list is doable.

Gives a new meaning to "shovel ready" doesn't it?

Also the New Center decision was made by who? This wasn't a city project. Fisher and GM were hand in hand in determining the site selection. Could it have been an economic decision to place the site there? After all, the city didn't own the land. And downtown land was probably more expensive than where they built.

[DetroitPlanner]

If one would care to study this, the world is full of such blunders. Robert Moses while destroying much of N Manhatten, Queens and the Bronx also gave New York some beautiful parks and parkways. One person's mess is another person's dream come true. More later.

[jackie5275]

I think the 2 comments made respectively by rjlj & daddeo pretty much summarize the whole situation. Too many family & friends who don't know what they're doing, & not just from the Kilpatrick administration, and the fact that those who are wrong won't admit it or depending on how far back you want to go, are now dead. It's just typical Detroit to have someone get a great idea of "Let's put up XYZ building or development and tear down ABC to make room for it." I look at all the old pictures of Detroit that get posted on this site. I'm feel left out that I couldn't see all the great buildings such as the old post office, city hall, MCS in its glory days, etc. The non-parking lot things that replaced them are plain & bland. I think most of these projects have been done, not only because you have someone with no knowledge of urban planning, but more so because political buddies are getting their payback. This is why there is no real urban planning in this area.

[gnome]

D..nerd. Excellent post. This thread needs a little perspective, that's why I'm waiting for Kimba to grace us with his stripping down of the facts.

[crawford]

The freeways were NOT responsible for Detroit's decline. This is such revisionist B.S.

Gee, if we never built freeways, all the Poles would still be living on Chene Street, right?

Take a look at a city map. There is no correlation between decay and placement of freeways. In fact, the most decayed part of Detroit [[Near East Side/Lower East Side) has no freeways! Not one!

[313WX]

The freeways were NOT In fact, the most decayed part of Detroit [[Near East Side/Lower East Side) has no freeways! Not one!

Then I guess I-94 [[Edsel Ford Freeway) is just a tiny side street.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_94_in_Michigan

[2blocksaway]

We sure like to talk out of both sides of our mouths here don't we?

On one thread we talk bout how much it sucks that the domestic auto industry is shrinking and hoe people need to "buy american" to save their jobs and on the other hand we want less cars on the road and more mass transit.

Detroit is the Motor City for a reason. If you don't like it or it's suburbs. Leave.

Public transportation sucks and always will. No matter if I am going 1 or 100 miles I would prefer to drive myself. I don't want to make a stop every quarter mile while sitting next to someone who just got done drinking a bottle of cheap wine or someone who just stinks naturally.

Walking would be fine for short distances but it's Michigan so chances are it will be too cold or too hot a lot of the time.

[crawford]

I-94 is north of the worst decline on the East Side.

The decline in Detroit has little to with freeway placement.

It declined because of deindustrialization, necessary suburbanization of remaining manufacturing, postwar upward mobility, the federal mortgage interest deduction, and the tensions brought by the Great Migration.

If one could wave a magic wand, and the freeways were to magically disappear [[at least thouse within city limits), I would argue that Detroit would be in far worse shape than it is today. Downtown, which is completely reliant on easy access from distant suburbs, would become almost useless.